why did Stannis mock Maester Cressen?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Somehow I don't think the authors intentions were to show the Red Wedding as "wasn't that bad". I would think quite the opposite actually.

Especially when the only other example we know of was the rat cook.

Again man, opinions. Had it been someone else who died, i would have voiced my opinion but Catelyn died, i mean it cannot get better than that. I would have liked Robb to be taken prisoner but he was also killed. I was more sad of Greywind's death.

[TheButcherCrow]

I take it you thought the Red Wedding was perfectly justified then?

Justified. It means to have done something for a good or legitimate reason, so in that sense I suppose I do. What of the Battle of the Camps? Robb attacked at night & with use of subterfuge. Men were surely killed in their beds, half asleep & naked. Was that justified? I ended my last post by saying, "all war is a crime", does that not sum up my feelings adequately? The line between moral & evil is the lie men tell themselves so they can sleep at night. The Red Wedding was disgusting, the whole war is disgusting & that is the point. Even honourable Robb Stark must have cut down some poor peasant boy, unarmoured & afraid, in the heat of battle? Surely he woke in the night to the faces of the men he'd killed? There is nothing honourable about war. A dead soldier is a dead soldier, so who cares how they were killed? Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with the Red Wedding not being that bad.

[( Bloodraven )]

Justified. It means to have done something for a good or legitimate reason, so in that sense I suppose I do. What of the Battle of the Camps? Robb attacked at night & with use of subterfuge. Men were surely killed in their beds, half asleep & naked. Was that justified? I ended my last post by saying, "all war is a crime", does that not sum up my feelings adequately? The line between moral & evil is the lie men tell themselves so they can sleep at night. The Red Wedding was disgusting, the whole war is disgusting & that is the point. Even honourable Robb Stark must have cut down some poor peasant boy, unarmoured & afraid, in the heat of battle? Surely he woke in the night to the faces of the men he'd killed? There is nothing honourable about war. A dead soldier is a dead soldier, so who cares how they were killed? Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

:agree: It's war. There are no honorable decisions, only tactical ones.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Justified. It means to have done something for a good or legitimate reason, so in that sense I suppose I do. What of the Battle of the Camps? Robb attacked at night & with use of subterfuge. Men were surely killed in their beds, half asleep & naked. Was that justified? I ended my last post by saying, "all war is a crime", does that not sum up my feelings adequately? The line between moral & evil is the lie men tell themselves so they can sleep at night. The Red Wedding was disgusting, the whole war is disgusting & that is the point. Even honourable Robb Stark must have cut down some poor peasant boy, unarmoured & afraid, in the heat of battle? Surely he woke in the night to the faces of the men he'd killed? There is nothing honourable about war. A dead soldier is a dead soldier, so who cares how they were killed? Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

I agree and Wilfred Owen FTW!

[TheButcherCrow]

I agree and Wilfred Owen FTW!

I quoted Colonel Kurtz & Wilfred Owen in one thread *mini-wave in appreciation of me* Ahhh... that was nice :)

[House Pintur]

They make it a point that guest right is one of the most sacred things. Cutting down a unarmored peasant boy who is a besieging your family's castle is no big deal. The book states several times the RW is.

[LuisDantas]

Some seem to think that anything goes in war.

That is not really true, recent trends not withstanding.

[Sansa_Stark]

Maybe in universe the RW was that bad, but to me personally? Nah

[Cubicz]

Nyrhex posted a very concise, thorough, and believable explanation of this theory.

Its official. I am declaring for Stannis. I have never been a Stan-Stan, Stan-fan, Stan-man or whatever. I am now. Hail Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!

Link? I cant find his post

[( Bloodraven )]

Link? I cant find his post

Here it is:

Two reasons, one being an automatic response that anyone with experiance in command probably recognises from real life. The other is just a theory, but it fits way too good.

1. Selyse orders it. Stannis is obviousely angry that she did, but since she gave the command already, he allows it. The instant it apears she wishes to further mock Cressen he halts it. Basically not "breaking Selyse' word". If he gave her an earfull about never pulling something like that again just because she is queen and feels like she can boss around people, is not something that would have been done infront of anyone else, so no POV of Davos seeing it

2. He allows it because the reason he is finally convinced to trust in Mel's power and sails to Storm's End where he will be close to Renly and an army ~20 times his size is that she saw Cressen try and kill her, and told Stannis what will happen. Stannis tried to prevent this future/test her by ordering that Cressen be left alone, and allowed his wife to mock Cressen infront of everyone with hope that he will leave and the vision will fail to come true.

The relevent quotes:

Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead.

Cressen was horrorstruck. Fratricide . . . my lord, this is evil, unthinkable . . . please, listen to me.

Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. And what will you tell him, Maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on

his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?

I have heard your counsel, Cressen, Lord Stannis said. Now I will hear hers. You are dismissed.

The old man could only stop and stare. Maester Pylos, he said at last. You . . . you did not wake me.

His Grace commanded me to let you rest. Pylos had at least the grace to blush. He told me you were not needed here.

You are too ill and too confused to be of use to me, old man. It sounded so like Lord Stanniss voice, but it could not be, it could not.

Pylos will counsel me henceforth. Already he works with the ravens, since you can no longer climb to the rookery. I will not have you kill

yourself in my service.

Ser Davos moved aside to make room on the bench. We all should be in motley tonight, he said gloomily as Cressen seated himself, for

this is fools business were about. The red woman has seen victory in her flames, so Stannis means to press his claim, no matter what the

numbers. Before shes done were all like to see what Patchface saw, I fearthe bottom of the sea.

Gods make uncertain allies at best, the old man insisted, and that one has no power here.

You think not? The ruby at Melisandres throat caught the light as she turned her head, and for an instant it seemed to glow bright as the

comet. If you will speak such folly, Maester, you ought to wear your crown again.

Yes, Lady Selyse agreed. Patchess helm. It suits you well, old man. Put it on again, I command you.

Lord Stanniss eyes were shadowed beneath his heavy brow, his mouth tight as his jaw worked silently. He always ground his teeth when

he was angry. Fool, he growled at last, my lady wife commands. Give Cressen your helm.

No, the old maester thought, this is not you, not your way, you were always just, always hard yet never cruel, never, you did not

understand mockery, no more than you understood laughter.

Perhaps he ought sing his counsel henceforth,

Lady Selyse said.

You go too far, woman, Lord Stannis said. He is an old man, and hes served me well.

She met him beneath the high table with every mans eyes upon them. But Cressen saw only her. Red silk, red eyes, the ruby red at her

throat, red lips curled in a faint smile as she put her hand atop his own, around the cup. Her skin felt hot, feverish. It is not too late to spill

the wine, Maester.

[Cubicz]

Thanks! :)

[Cubicz]

Another thing about the Cressen/ Stannis relationship came to mind...

Perhaps it is an oversight by GRRM, but If a Maester is assigned to a castle, even if it changes hands (As Luwin served Theon after he took WInterfell), why was Cressen on Dragonstone with Stannis?

Cressen practically raised the Baratheon boys after their father died at Storm's End. No matter who was given the castle after Robert's rebellion, Cressen should have rermained there.

I suppose Stannis was so fond of him he demanded he come with him to Dragonstone?

[Bronn Urgandy]

Yet, everyone always goes on how Walder Frey should have let Robb though to assist Hoster and Edmure Tully. Similarly, by that logic the entire Stormlands and North should have handed Robert and Ned over to Aerys.

Joffrey being king doesn't negate his claim to the LP of Storm's End, furthermore IIRC Stannis also claims to be the King of the Iron Throne.

Yes, King > Liege Lord. Robert and Ned technically should've been handed over. Fortunately good sense and morals prevailed, since once a monarch becomes a tyrant he's fair game, but they could've been handed over just fine. I believe half the Stormlands even tried, werent called a Rebellion for nothing. Unless you take the stance that the Lannisters arent Crown forces (as I do) Walder Frey wasnt in the wrong. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

I am not judging people for their actions, thats just how it is. Of course the Stormlords declared for Renly, he's the authority they know and he has Highgarden marching through, who can blame them? Technically they should've declared for the King (Stan or Joff).

The issue of the Stormlands is a sticky one. Depends whos story you believe I guess..

Except for that Bloodraven who likely had access to black magic, didn't use it to kill his brother. He killed him on the battlefield where Daemon at least had a chance.

Fuck that, too much innocent collateral. I dont care if its black magic, poison or faceless man. It was done, it was kinda horrible and it was necessary, both from Bloodraven and Stannis.

I take it you thought the Red Wedding was perfectly justified then?

Lots of innocents died at the RW though. At least Renly and Stannis werent treating as friends. The assassin came after negotiations failed.

Another thing about the Cressen/ Stannis relationship came to mind...

Perhaps it is an oversight by GRRM, but If a Maester is assigned to a castle, even if it changes hands (As Luwin served Theon after he took WInterfell), why was Cressen on Dragonstone with Stannis?

Cressen practically raised the Baratheon boys after their father died at Storm's End. No matter who was given the castle after Robert's rebellion, Cressen should have rermained there.

I suppose Stannis was so fond of him he demanded he come with him to Dragonstone?

Doesnt Cressen mention the break in precedent though? I think it was him who asked to follow Stannis.

[Master Forel's Fro]

Because he will betray everyone and everything he ever cared about and the maester was just his first betrayal.

[Cubicz]

Doesnt Cressen mention the break in precedent though? I think it was him who asked to follow Stannis.

I think you may be right. Sounds familiar. Thanks.

[Avlonnic]

I appreciate the dialogue regarding this. I thought the scene was meant to demonstrate that (a) the RW is dangerous and (b) Stannis has already started down the perilous path of her unsavory influence. Cressen's upstanding pre-RW Stannis would not have even demeaned his maester. [Of course we know the 'new' Stannis goes on to permit human sacrifices, break his marital oaths, offer justification for kinslaying a child by fire, and so on.]

[HMR]

Stannis is a jerk, we've seen this time and time again, he is weak and is always manipulated by everyone around him, especially his wife and Mel. He regretted doing this as he deeply regrets killing Renly, but he is too weak to change his ways, he is a follower, not a leader.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Stannis is a jerk, we've seen this time and time again, he is weak and is always manipulated by everyone around him, especially his wife and Mel. He regretted doing this as he deeply regrets killing Renly, but he is too weak to change his ways, he is a follower, not a leader.

I always thought of Stannis as of a strong man who is constantly tested by the necessity of making difficult decisions, but after reading this I realized that he is indeed a weakling and a jerk.

[Mikkel]

I always thought of Stannis as of a strong man who is constantly tested by the necessity of making difficult decisions, but after reading this I realized that he is indeed a weakling and a jerk.

Yeah, the abundant proof and irrefutable logic has me convinced, too.