Why did Stannis marry Selyse?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. That was a joke...ya know like many others in this tread. Relax, I'm no Stannis hater. Would YOU want to be married to him if you were a woman? I'd throw myself off a tower first.

2. Then what would you call it? I said "not fond of." Give a more accurate term & I'll use, but "uncomfortable around" is a white wash.

1. Jokes are kinda hard to get through the Internet. I'm not sure though how I am supposed to take it in good humor rather than my assumption that it was flame. I mean you clearly don't like him.

2. What ( Bloodraven ) said.

We will have to disagree then because IMO the too-many-to-count references in the series to Stannis' negative disposition around & toward women shows clearly that he isn't fond of them.

As opposed to his lovely social attitude towards men? Don't get me wrong. I don't think Stannis is a believer in gender equality. But I don't think there is a real reason to believe he dislikes them.

[Lady Sharya]

Where's the love? By the old gods and the new, I'd marry Stannis in a heartbeat.

HaHa. He's all yours. ;) Some like it hot, some like it not. If they were being dished out I'd take Jon Snow. :)

[Lady Sharya]

1. Jokes are kinda hard to get through the Internet. I'm not sure though how I am supposed to take it in good humor rather than my assumption that it was flame. I mean you clearly don't like him.

2. What ( Bloodraven ) said.

As opposed to his lovely social attitude towards men? Don't get me wrong. I don't think Stannis is a believer in gender equality. But I don't think there is a real reason to believe he dislikes them.

1. Sorry then. I don't know how to make all those cute faces except the basic smiling one. I do not dislike Stannis' character in ASOIF. But no, I would not want to be married to him if he were a real person in 2013. Interpret that how you want.

2. You didn't give me a better term to use. This is NOT about gender equality & Stannis has shown himself to believe in it since he wants Shireen to sit the throne if he dies. You cannot deny that GRRM includes all those passages- regarding his disposition on wonen specifically- for no reason. Why then? GRRM doesn't make the point with the teenage boys, who would really HAVE good reasons.

[Petyr Patter]

House Florrent might be one of the top 20 Houses in Westeros in terms of wealth, men, and other factors, I definitely wouldn't put them out of the top 30. If the marriage was arranged before Robert's Rebellion, like Robert's bethrothal to Lyanna, then a Second Son of a Lord Paramount certainly could do worse. Being a second son is a HUGE step down from being next in line to inherit.

It is also worth noting that daughters tend to be far "tiered" in terms of marriage alliances. Walder Frey told Robb he could chose ANY of his daughters or grand daughters (or probably great grand daughters) to wed. So, Selyse might merely have been the one of the right age and not already bethrothed. Throw in a substantial dowry, and it seems like a good match. Of course, this describes any number of houses. I suppose its best to say one of them had to marry Stannis, and Florent was in the right place at the right time.

Now, if the marriage was arranged after the Rebellion, it almost makes no sense.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. Sorry then. I don't know how to make all those cute faces except the basic smiling one. I do not dislike Stannis' character in ASOIF. But no, I would not want to be married to him if he were a real person in 2013. Interpret that how you want.

2. You didn't give me a better term to use. This is NOT about gender equality & Stannis has shown himself to believe in it since he wants Shireen to sit the throne if he dies. You cannot deny that GRRM includes all those passages- regarding his disposition on wonen specifically- for no reason. Why then? GRRM doesn't make the point with the teenage boys, who would really HAVE good reasons.

Could you bring some quotes of what your talking about?

[joluoto]

At the point in time for Stannis' marriage Jon Arryn and Robert were probably worried about the Tyrells. A match with House Florent, that has an ancient claim on Highgarden made sense. And the Lord himself had no unmarried daughters of the time, but had nieces. So why the ugliest one? Probably Robert's idea because he found it amusing.

[Lady Sharya]

Could you bring some quotes of what your talking about?

Asha Greyjoy in Dance:

"Her very womanhood seemed to offend him. Men from the green lands liked their women soft and sweet in silk, she knew, not clad in mail and leather with a throwing axe in each hand. But her short acquaintance with the king at Deepwood Motte convinced her that he would have been no more fond of her in a gown. Even with Galbart Glover’s wife, the pious Lady Sybelle, he had been correct and courteous but plainly uncomfortable. This southron king seemed to be one of those men to whom women are another race, as strange and unfathomable as giants and grumkins and the children of the forest. The She-Bear made him grind his teeth as well."

“...it seemed to Asha, hungry for glory, deaf to caution, a glutton for praise, and contemptuous of smallfolk, wolves, and women. In the last, he was not unlike his king.”

“Your king will not take a woman’s word.”

[Draco_Dracul]

Because he's the lord of a rather poor bit of rock and no one in there right mind other than Jamie Lannister thought that Robert would go without children, leaving Stannis as a not terribly desirable marriage candidate (especially compared to his younger brother). The Florents are enemies of the Tyrells which (coupled with the strong alliances in the North, Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands, and Westerlands) could be used as a stick to keep the Tyrells in line.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Asha Greyjoy in Dance:

So, Asha thinks he is. I don't see any actions or anything he did that supports that he dislikes women.

The first quote states that his dislike for Asha doesn't seem to be because she is a woman taking on a man's role. She assumes it's because she is a woman. Of course, she is a Greyjoy, an Ironborn, and an enemy. Stannis has plenty of reasons to dislike her that have nothing to do with her gender. EDIT: Forgot to add this. As far as Lady Glover, the comments don't show dislike (that's Asha's assumption). They show that he is uncomfortable around women. This is not something I am arguing with. But uncomfortable =/= dislike. Dislike would be treating her with disdain or something. But as Asha stated, he was uncomfortable.

The second quote simply shows us what Asha thinks of Stannis. It's not showing us some action or behavior that Stannis did. I'm sure you'll see it as unreasonable, but I expect a little more than his captive's opinion of him.

Let's look at the line right after the third quote. The She-Bear growled. “Why should we trust the word of any ironman after what your brother did at Winterfell?” So, a woman calls her on her bullshit. This is hardly convincing. In fact, it is a woman pointing out that it's less her gender and more her family.

[Undead Ned With No Head]

Secure the reach as florents had a good claim if the tyrells tried anything and as to why selyse she has a mustache and it's Robert taking the piss out of Stannis

[jarl the climber]

I'm not sure, did the Florents back Robert or at least refuse to send men?

[Lady Sharya]

Your explanation on the first quote doesn't cover Lady Sybelle or The She-Bear. The other two explanations just a shallow reading of Asha's character.

Now, I've done enough here explaining my posts to you & finding you SOME of the quotes to back it up. I'm not going to spend hours gathering all quotes from Davos chapters that show how he regards his OWN WIFE.

I'm entitled to my own rational interpretations of the characters in the series without you and you Brahs attacking me personally and throwing unfounded accusations at me. So go do your work reading the books.

[Mad Monkey]

Some people are just Awkward Penguins socially awkward :P And I'm pretty sure a person can be uncomfortable around someone and not dislike them (like if someone is uncomfortable when around babies, afraid to hold them bc he might do it wrong, that doesnt automatically mean he's not fond of/dislikes babies).

Eh, I think after a few years it will get old to have a spouse that views you in that squirmy discomforting way even if doesn't cross the (nebulous) line into dislike. However, I don't think that this alone would have mattered to an ambitious family who wanted to marry into the royal family. Stannis's squirminess around women is unsettling but it's not nearly as bad as (for example) Walder Frey who has no end of women who want to marry him, and Stannis's social status in Westeros is far above Frey's as well. No, I think it's less, "no one wants to marry Stannis," and more, "we need to marry Stannis off to someone political advantageous,". Good reasons have been given already for why the Baratheons would want to strengthen their ties to the Reach and to the Florents specifically.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

EDIT: After some thought, I decided to erase this. This is just becoming petty bickering vaguely based on the topic of Stannis over several different Threads. So, I'm going to try stop here.

[Lady Sharya]

6. You realize you're the one trying to prove something, right? Not me.

No, I'm not trying to prove anything.

I made a joke. I explained that & apologized for the misinterpretation. That wasn't good enough for you dispite not having anything dispute.

I also gave an interpretaton of the texts & explained that. That wasn't good enough for you dispite not having anything dispute.

You insisted I provide proof of my interpretation from the texts and you do not accept that. I could argue your interpretations but you have already show that nothing will be good enough for you.

Yet all the while I asked for a better interpretation & you refused to give me one. So really, unless you can provide a better reason for why Stannis is seen displaying dicomfort around women, I will continue to perceive that Stannis is not fond of women.

[Pod The Impaler]

It is being assumed here that Robert arranged the match.

What if it was their father Steffon, who arranged the betrothal prior to their death (as they did between Robert and Lyanna) ?

Stannis is not the sort to break such an arrangement.

[( Bloodraven )]

Your explanation on the first quote doesn't cover Lady Sybelle or The She-Bear. The other two explanations just a shallow reading of Asha's character.

Now, I've done enough here explaining my posts to you & finding you SOME of the quotes to back it up. I'm not going to spend hours gathering all quotes from Davos chapters that show how he regards his OWN WIFE.

I'm entitled to my own rational interpretations of the characters in the series without you and you Brahs attacking me personally and throwing unfounded accusations at me. So go do your work reading the books.

I think Lord Bronn Stokeworth's response to the quotes you posted is accurate. That's also how I interpreted her POV. :read: I am not trying to whitewash him, he surely could speak to her (and everyone else) nicely. And ofc treat his prisoner better than "Whilst others hungered, she was fed. Whilst others shivered, she was warm. Whilst others struggled through the snows atop weary horses, she rode upon a bed of furs inside a wayn, with a stiff canvas roof to keep the snows off, comfortable in her chains."

But I wont say he simply dislikes women in general just bc of what his captive, who has a biased view of her captor (the one who also destroyed her uncles' Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy Rebellion), assumes of him... That would be a shallow reading of the character.

Ofc we're entitled to our own rational intepretations. As for personal attacks, who brought up "brahs" in this discussion? Neither I nor Lord Bronn used that term. Who said to go read the books?

[Lady Sharya]

1. But I wont say he simply dislikes women in general just bc of what his captive, who has a biased view of her captor (the one who also destroyed her uncles' Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy Rebellion), assumes of him... That would be a shallow reading of the character.

2. Ofc we're entitled to our own rational intepretations. As for personal attacks, who brought up "brahs" in this discussion? Neither I nor Lord Bronn used that term. Who said to go read the books?

1. I never said Stannis dislikes women, I said he isn't fond of them. I found Asha in her narative chapters to be a reliable witness. Without her we have no narrative in Dance of Stannis' journey from Deepwood to his current position. Again, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

2. I wasn't talking about you or anyone else in this thread except to whom I was responding. I apologize if it appeared that I was directing anything toward you or any others here. The personal attacks were done in another thread, as well as the post here that was conveniently deleated AFTER I responded so that it wouldn't be read by you or others.

I hope this clears any negative response and ends this matter for you.

[The Drunkard]

1. I never said Stannis dislikes women, I said he isn't fond of them. I found Asha in her narative chapters to be a reliable witness. Without her we have no narrative in Dance of Stannis' journey from Deepwood to his current position. Again, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Stannis isn't fond of people in general. When you specify only women it looks like you're trying to say that it's women, specifically, he isn't fond of. Is he socially awkward around them? Sure. Is he quite conservative about their roles in society? Sure, as are almost all the men in the series. But does he dislike most women any more than he dislikes most men? No, and in general he's far more courteous to the women he meets than he is the men.

[GallowsKnight]

The Stannis Florent marriage is a good one.

1. They're a rich and powerful house

People say the Florent's only have 2000 men. That's a shitload of men, have you ever seen two thousand men? Yes many houses have more but it's not a number to be laughed at. Many lords retainers are more like Eustace Osgrey'd or Rohanne Webber's.

They have a strong castle and wealthy lands. Remember Garlan Tyrell is described as being made "a great-lord" when it's given to him. No doubt they gave a substantial dowry to Stannis as well. Something that is useful for a fresh new Lord setting up his household.

2. It weakens the Tyrells

The Florent men are actually worth twofold their number. As every man fighting for Robert is a man not fighting for the Tyrells. So the Baratheons get +2k, the Tyrells -2k.

Furthermore they have a claim to Highgarden through the Gardener line. If the Tyrells ever need replacing many Reach Lords would accept a Florent as overlord rather than a foreigner from another Kingdom.

Finally if the Florent's don't back the Tyrells in a war, other houses might decide to follow their behaviour and jump ship. Houses like Fossoway, Meadows, Mullendore and others might changes sides too. Remember Stannis took a pretty decent chunk of Reachmen with him to the Blackwater.