Tyrion1991 Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 All of the main usurpers are dead. Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn. Stannis has never been on Danys hate list and he'll never give up anyway. So Jamie is pretty much the only character where her lack of understanding of the circumstances might be relevant. Beyond that, the character still intends to conquer Westeros and its natural that people will oppose her regardless of her feelings about Ned or Tywin or Aerys. Beyond the Jamie thing I don't see what the great issue is. All of her ire was directed personally at Ned, Rob B, and Tywin. All of these people are dead. Mission accomplished. I mean, what is the difference to the plot whether Dany accepts or does not accept that her father was mad? With the notable exception of Jamie, I don't see how it would make a huge deal of difference whether Dany hates or admires a bunch of dead men. Theres been no indication that Dany wants to kill every last Baratheon, Stark or Lannister (do you really think GRRM would kill Tyrion?). Then shes already shown that shes willing to work with people who once fought for the Usurper: Jorah and Barristan. So shes not rabidly demanding every lord who fought with robert die. It seems to have all been hatred of Ned, Tywin and Robert. What is the long term effect of this incorrect belief going to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 It doesn't affect the plot, inasmuch as it actually affects Dany and her perception of House Targaryen, RR, and ultimately herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 You don't think it will be relevant when she and Tyrion meets, or when she is supposed to enforce her rule over people who don't trust her? You don't think entire illusion will crumble the moment she steps on Westerosi soil? The point is that Dany will have to deal with ghosts of her family's past, sooner rather than later, and the fact she hasn't done so, and that she still believes in stories Viserys told her. It will affect the plot in one way or another. Indirectly, we will just see her fight with everything she thought she knew. Directly, we will see her possibly clash with some of those that won't just welcome her with open arms due to what her father did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion1991 Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 It doesn't affect the plot, inasmuch as it actually affects Dany and her perception of House Targaryen, RR, and ultimately herself. Aerys isn't all of House Targaryen any more than Viserys was. I am not sure why Dany would go totally against her origins especially when she has better role models/ancestors in Aegon and his sisters or even Rhaegar arguably. Whats RR? I guess it would certainly affect her own identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 It is very relevant. She needs to know that it wasn't poor kind Aerys against the traitors. She detests Westeros for what she thinks Westerosi did and they will be wary of her because of what her father did. She will need time to win them over - and it won't happen if she keeps wallowing in her willful ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion1991 Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 You don't think it will be relevant when she and Tyrion meets, or when she is supposed to enforce her rule over people who don't trust her? You don't think entire illusion will crumble the moment she steps on Westerosi soil? The point is that Dany will have to deal with ghosts of her family's past, sooner rather than later, and the fact she hasn't done so, and that she still believes in stories Viserys told her. It will affect the plot in one way or another. Indirectly, we will just see her fight with everything she thought she knew. Directly, we will see her possibly clash with some of those that won't just welcome her with open arms due to what her father did. Yeah men like Mace Tyrell or Arriane saying that Dany is insane because of her father without having met her aren't going to be persuaded she isn't her fathers daughter. This would only be an issue if people genuinely willing to serve with her are pushed away because of Danys attitude on Aerys or because of her persecution of people who did. Though I find the latter unlikely since her hatred was purely on Rob,Tywin and Ned, whilst the former seems like too narrow a basis to wage war upon Daenerys who acts/is nothing like the Mad King. I get that you as a reader don't like this element of Danys story but I am not seeing its relation to the plot. Why does Dany HAVE to resolve this perception if it makes little qualitative difference to what she wants or how she achieves it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Aerys isn't all of House Targaryen any more than Viserys was. I am not sure why Dany would go totally against her origins especially when she has better role models/ancestors in Aegon and his sisters or even Rhaegar arguably. Whats RR? I guess it would certainly affect her own identity. RR is Robert's Rebellion. Viserys brainwashed Dany into glorifying Rhaegar and Aerys, and to be honest, neither of them are the best of role models. Dany's belief that she has a right to Westeros, hinges on the fact that she believes that they were unlawfully deposed, and that her father was the victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 I get that you as a reader don't like this element of Danys story but I am not seeing its relation to the plot. Why does Dany HAVE to resolve this perception if it makes little qualitative difference to what she wants or how she achieves it? What exactly did you get that I don't like? Dany finding out the truth about her father is essential in her correlation with other great Houses. Do you actually think that she will come with dragons, start a civil war of mass proportion and that the rest of Westeros will be "no biggie, everything is forgotten"? It does make significant difference... I don't see how she could negotiate with anyone in Westeros and that issue not to be brought up. edit: grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion1991 Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 It is very relevant. She needs to know that it wasn't poor kind Aerys against the traitors. She detests Westeros for what she thinks Westerosi did and they will be wary of her because of what her father did. She will need time to win them over - and it won't happen if she keeps wallowing in her willful ignorance. No she specifically detests Robert B, Ned Stark and Tywin. Two out of three of those characters are very prominent and beloved by readers. But they are not Westeros. Dany has already forgiven knights who served Robert Baratheon and is for sure going to accept Tyrion into her service. Those 3 men are dead. Her vengance has been fulfilled already and she doesn't know it. What she wants now is to be Queen and she has always been clear this is going to be done by conquest. This is a very grimdark world. I do not believe Dany bending over backwards and trying to appease these people by pointing out how much she loved Ned Stark for rebelling against her father. We saw what that path led to in Mereen. There will be none of that going forward and why shouldn't there be if it doesn't work? GRRM has made it very clear that the lords of Westeros in the south only respond to force and power. So its only really the North and well, sorry, but the Starks aren't Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Dany needs to know about Aerys, Rhaegar and all that inspired Robert's rebellion. Barristan is slowly educating her but she hasn't learned the full truth, not yet. She knows enough to fear being tainted by madness but she needs to know the madness that caused her House to get tossed out of Westoros. Sad thing is, it might matter more to her than it does to the people of Westoros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Visenya Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 The only crime is she doesn't know what a great King and dad he was :(. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion1991 Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 What exactly did you get that I don't like? Dany finding out the truth about her father is essential in her correlation with other great Houses. Do you actually think that she will come with dragons, start a civil war of mass proportion and that the rest of Westeros will be "no biggie, everything is forgotten"? It does make significant difference... I don't see how she could negotiate with anyone in Westeros and that issue not to be brought up. Why does everyone assume Dany is going to land with a few thousand people and will have to beg the Starks and Stannis for help exactly? I never really got that presumption. Why should the great houses hate Dany for a dead Targaryen whose policies she doesn't enact, whose style of rule if different and who is clearly one of the good sane Targaryens. Dany is not Aerys. Who cares if the historical facts over what Aerys is are blurred. People aren't going to wage war over that. Do you really think everyone is going to scream "bending history" and wage a suicidal war against Dany after she has already beaten them? It would be silly if after GRRM has kept emphasising that the lords of Westeros play the game of thrones and care only for personal gain that they all fight to the death to stop Dany altering history. How dare she try to say that those rebels were rebels. How dare she say that Robert seized the throne for himself. People are not going to wage war on Dany for a very narrow thing like how Aerys is viewed. Its purely a historical issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Why does everyone assume Dany is going to land with a few thousand people and will have to beg the Starks and Stannis for help exactly? I never really got that presumption. Why should the great houses hate Dany for a dead Targaryen whose policies she doesn't enact, whose style of rule if different and who is clearly one of the good sane Targaryens. Dany is not Aerys. Who cares if the historical facts over what Aerys is are blurred. People aren't going to wage war over that. Do you really think everyone is going to scream "bending history" and wage a suicidal war against Dany after she has already beaten them? Because logic dictates so. She will need support just as Aegon did to confront lords and Kings with much greater armies. Great Houses won't hate Dany because of Aerys. They won't trust her because of him. They fought against dictatorship Targaryen imposed, and now she comes with dragons, basically doing the same. Plus, all the Houses will be against her. Martells will side with Aegon, Tyrells and Lannisters are united and most likely will stick to each other. Freys are damaged goods, Northern lords will most likely abide to Starks, Vale lords will also have problems with Dany. Ironborn will be divided. It's pragmatism, beside just history. Dany won't be able to count on anyone's support in Westeros, not just because she is Targaryen (although that doesn't help at all), but because some wants what she wants, and some simply won't help her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessica Rogers Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 she know's what her father did to the north, when barrister was trying to tell her that Ned wasn't a bad guy, he brought up that Aerys burned Rickard alive in his armor and and forced Brandon to hang himself.I know she tried to defend them by saying it was treason for Brandon to challenge Rhaeger and I don't exactly remember or not if Lyanna was brought up but she know's Aerys was the mad king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 she know's what her father did to the north, when barrister was trying to tell her that Ned wasn't a bad guy, he brought up that Aerys burned Rickard alive in his armor and and forced Brandon to hang himself. I know she tried to defend them by saying it was treason for Brandon to challenge Rhaeger and I don't exactly remember or not if Lyanna was brought up but she know's Aerys was the mad king. Barristan never told her about what happened to Rickard or Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Why does everyone assume Dany is going to land with a few thousand people and will have to beg the Starks and Stannis for help exactly? I never really got that presumption. Why should the great houses hate Dany for a dead Targaryen whose policies she doesn't enact, whose style of rule if different and who is clearly one of the good sane Targaryens. Dany is not Aerys. Who cares if the historical facts over what Aerys is are blurred. People aren't going to wage war over that. Do you really think everyone is going to scream "bending history" and wage a suicidal war against Dany after she has already beaten them? It would be silly if after GRRM has kept emphasising that the lords of Westeros play the game of thrones and care only for personal gain that they all fight to the death to stop Dany altering history. How dare she try to say that those rebels were rebels. How dare she say that Robert seized the throne for himself. People are not going to wage war on Dany for a very narrow thing like how Aerys is viewed. Its purely a historical issue. What crime had Arys done when he was 15? Targaryens are just no trustable. And the tells of the Astapori mass mourder and the mereen slavers in crosses will also reach westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 What crime had Arys done when he was 15? Targaryens are just no trustable. And the tells of the Astapori mass mourder and the mereen slavers in crosses will also reach westeros. They already have. The Westerosi aren't gonna care about what Dany did in Slaver's Bay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 They already have. The Westerosi aren't gonna care about what Dany did in Slaver's Bay... Well, I imagine it's not the same having her at Meereen and listening to those stories in Westeros, and having her in Westeros knowing what she has done. In Meereen, she is just story from the far east, in Westeros, she is real threat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Well, I imagine it's not the same having her at Meereen and listening to those stories in Westeros, and having her in Westeros knowing what she has done. In Meereen, she is just story from the far east, in Westeros, she is real threat Her enemies are going to care about what she did in Slaver's Bay, but her supporters, which she will undeniably get, won't. But you're right, there is a difference between hearing the stories while she is in Meereen, and while she is in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juli Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 It's never made sense to me that she thinks RR makes them the invaders....the Targs won the right to be kings by conquest....Robert won the same way. Danny does not have the "right" to anything and her single mindlessness worries me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.