The future of Walder Rivers

[Mithras]

He will certainly be a major character in the upcoming Frey civil war. But what will he do? Side with Black Walder?

[Balaurderaa]

He argues with Edwyn in AFFC so probably (The Freys are very prickly about insults after all)

The idea of Edwyn/Rivers fighting reminds me of Maekar I's disagreements with his bastard great uncle..

[Mithras]

The idea of Edwyn/Rivers fighting reminds me of Maekar I's disagreements with his bastard great uncle..

Maybe. But I think he is more like Bittersteel. Walder Rivers is the one who offered to kill Jeyne so that Robb can marry a Frey. He is not good at court intrigue as Lame Lothar but he is ruthless and highly unexpected. He can think/do unimaginable things. He is strong, bitter and full of hatred. If he is Bittersteel, Black Walder becomes Daemon Blackfyre, Edwyn is Daeron II, and Lame Lothar is Bloodraven. An interesting parallel :drool:

[Balaurderaa]

Maybe. But I think he is more like Bittersteel. Walder Rivers is the one who offered to kill Jeyne so that Robb can marry a Frey. He is not good at court intrigue as Lame Lothar but he is ruthless and highly unexpected. He can think/do unimaginable things. He is strong, bitter and full of hatred. If he is Bittersteel, Black Walder becomes Daemon Blackfyre, Edwyn is Daeron II, and Lame Lothar is Bloodraven. An interesting parallel :drool:

Ah yes missed that Lothar/Bloodraven and Rivers/Bittersteel is a much better comparison! :D

I do wonder how many other Freys of not will be left for this war though. Since Jammos, Aenys, Rhaegar and Symond all died in the North and presumably Ser Stupid is going to join them. I wonder who Perwyn/Olyvar might side with?

[Shadrich]

Maybe. But I think he is more like Bittersteel. Walder Rivers is the one who offered to kill Jeyne so that Robb can marry a Frey. He is not good at court intrigue as Lame Lothar but he is ruthless and highly unexpected. He can think/do unimaginable things. He is strong, bitter and full of hatred. If he is Bittersteel, Black Walder becomes Daemon Blackfyre, Edwyn is Daeron II, and Lame Lothar is Bloodraven. An interesting parallel :drool:

Lame Lothar Frey - the next Greenseer.

But anyway, its actually a interesting comparison.

[Mithras]

Well I only want to point out they may have similar roles as in the first Blackfyre Rebellion. They cannot be the exact replicas but share similar personalities. We talked about Rivers/Bittersteel. Daeron II was intelligent and Daemon was a warrior. Same goes for Edwyn and Black Walder.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Walder Rivers could act as "lord-maker".. Since he seems to have some authority over the Twin´s men at arms.

If i were one of the claimants to the Twins i would make sure he was on my side..

Probably he will side with Lothar since we saw them working together several times.

[Mithras]

Walder Rivers could act as "lord-maker".. Since he seems to have some authority over the Twin´s men at arms.

If i were one of the claimants to the Twins i would make sure he was on my side..

Probably he will side with Lothar since we saw them working together several times.

I am thinking the opposite. Lothar will side with Edwyn against the Walders. I think Lothar believes that the chance of survival of House Frey is better with Edwyn than two unpredictable warrior leaders.

[Veltigar]

I believe way to much importance is put on the Frey's inheritance dispute. They'll be dealt with before that imo. We'll probably see the BF and the Crannogmen take Walder Rivers out.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I am thinking the opposite. Lothar will side with Edwyn against the Walders. I think Lothar believes that the chance of survival of House Frey is better with Edwyn than two unpredictable warrior leaders.

I don´t think Lothar will side with either. He seems really ambitious, cunning and dangerous (he was the one who engineered the RW). Besides he has been Steward at the Twins for decades. Most likely running things currently.

Edwyn is at Riverrun, and black Walder is at Seagard.

i see him playing both sides so they can bleed each other, and making his move afterwards with the help of Walder Rivers.

He is only a couple of places before Big Walder, in the succession line. It has been pretty heavily foreshadowed that Big Walder will end up with the Twins..

So it would make sense for Lothar to end up winning the Frey "civil war", since he has 4 daughers, and women aren´t eligible for inheritance at the twins.

[Mithras]

I believe way to much importance is put on the Frey's inheritance dispute. They'll be dealt with before that imo. We'll probably see the BF and the Crannogmen take Walder Rivers out.

I dont think they could do any damage to Freys at the The Twins. As Robb realized, the Twins can only be taken by two large armies at the both sides of the river. And even after that, The Twins can be held against a siege for some time. All the important Frey factions left the Twins except Black Walder and Edwyn. The only downfall of the Freys is possible through a civil war at the Twins. I think Lame Lothar will try to keep his power and he does not have to be the lord of the Twins for that.

[Veltigar]

I dont think they could do any damage to Freys at the The Twins. As Robb realized, the Twins can only be taken by two large armies at the both sides of the river. And even after that, The Twins can be held against a siege for some time. All the important Frey factions left the Twins except Black Walder and Edwyn. The only downfall of the Freys is possible through a civil war at the Twins. I think Lame Lothar will try to keep his power and he does not have to be the lord of the Twins for that.

1) Jaime orders the Freys to transfer their prisoners to the IT.

2) BF, HR and their troops ambush that convoy

3) The Frey's set out in strength to catch the Stark loyalists

4) they pursue them into the Neck.

5) Second ambush. RIP Freys.

=> Not at the Twins.

Other possibility (at the Twins):

1) The Crannogmen, masters of stealth and guerilla warfare take out the guards. Possibly with the help of a member of the BwB from the inside.

2) They free the prisoners.

3) They are found out. Fighting inside the Twins.

4) They flee to the Neck. Freys pursue them and are lured into an ambush. RIP Frey men.

5) Nymeria and her pack enter the Twins after the Frey men went after the Crannogmen and they hold a Frey banket.

Both scenarios are more likely than wasting screentime on a long drawn out Frey conflict.

[Mithras]

Both scenarios are more likely than wasting screentime on a long drawn out Frey conflict.

In addition to those, Nymeria and her pack can get their taste of Frey meat too :)

In both scenarios, I cant see a possible POV being in the middle of the conflict. I think we will learn these events indirectly, which saves time. We know the epilogues and prologues have great importance. If you disregard the Frey civil war, Merret's POV will be somewhat a dull one when compared to the others.

[Veltigar]

In addition to those, Nymeria and her pack can get their taste of Frey meat too :)

In both scenarios, I cant see a possible POV being in the middle of the conflict. I think we will learn these events indirectly, which saves time. We know the epilogues and prologues have great importance. If you disregard the Frey civil war, Merret's POV will be somewhat a dull one when compared to the others.

The reveal of LS wasn't exciting enough for you?

[OberynBlackfyre]

Really, I think it's all going to be just a matter of time until Lord Walder dies, and then the knives come out within the Freys, thus making them a spent force. The BwB would not need that much guile to infiltrate the Twins while they were in the middle of who takes primacy. I mean you have Lady Stoneheart ACTIVELY working against them in every possible way she can. And with Jaime's new story arc, if he switches sides, all he needs to do is ride to the twins and say that the BwB are the men he is commanding, then boom. They burn the twins to the ground. Poetic justice since it was a Lannister who killed the Starks at the twins, but also a Lannister who helped the Starks burn the Twins.

[Mithras]

The reveal of LS wasn't exciting enough for you?

There were some foreshadowing to that. Ghost of High Heart's dream and Nymeria taking her out. We witnessed the elevated status of the Freys post-RW. The purpose of the epilogue was to show that Freys are already boiling inside and LS will make things much uglier for them. Their downfall is inevitable.

Not to mention the story of the Rat Cook, eating his own children.

[jarl the climber]

Jaimie beleived he was more dangerous than his brothers, I'm not exactly sure what he meant by that. Still he seemed to have more common sense about Ryman death, he did not think Black Walder did it and he was right. He did not break bread with Robb or participate in the massacre in the Feast room so I'm not sure how much culpability that he has for the Wedding.

[Mithras]

Jaimie beleived he was more dangerous than his brothers, I'm not exactly sure what he meant by that. Still he seemed to have more common sense about Ryman death, he did not think Black Walder did it and he was right. He did not break bread with Robb or participate in the massacre in the Feast room so I'm not sure how much culpability that he has for the Wedding.

He led the attack outside the tents. There was a bloodbath outside. I am not sure but at least 3000 men are killed, some of them were Freys.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

"My nephew may not be a man of the sword, but I am." Rivers is cold and cool, the Frey's answer to the Blackfish, a fighter people still worry about though he must be getting on a bit (his son is an adult knight with a daughter of about ten). I think we'll be very entertained by him yet.

Incidentally, though, I think Jaime's view on his dangerousness is a typical Jaime misconception - even after losing his own 'man of the sword' status, Jaime still overrates warriors over politicians (eg he thinks Littlefinger is harmless and amiable, no threat, 'the perfect Hand'). We know Lothar is probably the trickiest of the breed, and Black Walder the nastiest. Compared to them Rivers is just a fairly upright, decent, competent, gruff soldier (compare Steelshanks Walton).

[Djinn]

With Aenys and Ser Stupid doomed in the North, Walder and Martyn Rivers will be the most noteworthy Frey fighters left.