Could Jaime have defended Elia?

[Gurkhal]

I am sure Aerys command to Jaime ended with his death, thus his duty then moves onto serving Aegon and protecting them.

That must be why his most lasting legacy is song about the peace that came about under his handship (despite little of that coming about because of him), instead of his killing of two houses. Oh wait, it is about the latter.

It did, the last straw to break the camel's back was the command of kinslaying for no other purpose but to make Tywin's men kill Jaime. Aerys was already giving orders to burn the city and so destroy both Jaime and Tywin regardless and thus one cannot see his command to Jaime as anything else but another example of his spite. Its only a pity that Jaime didn't kill Aerys years before and so spare the realm the reign of a madman.

We don't know what his legacy will be since the series isn't over yet. Or do you claim to know what GRRM intends to write?

[Victor227]

If Jaime had sat down and had a good long think about it, he certainly may have come to the conclusion that his father, in forsaking the Targaryens, might intend to murder the children even though the prevailing through toward high nobility is that alive=more valuable. He didn't though. He'd chosen a path and stuck to it, and was then left dealing with the 'well, my life is over' after-thoughts where you realize that nothing will ever be the same and you've done something unthinkable.

I'm going to cut him some slack on this one. Kingslaying takes a lot out of you.

[Alty732]

He sent two other men to go find the children, and never expected Tywin would hurt them in the first place. Under Jaime as lord commander of the kingsguard the Hand of the king was killed, Tywin. Jaime never thought Tyrion would go try and kill him, but tyrion did. The flaw I see, is that Jaime trusts his loved ones too much.

ALSO Jaime didn't just sit on the throne to "see what happens" he also probably was going to explain to them what happend... until everyone just accused him of being an asshole, without question. Then Jaimes pride steped in.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Jaime is a terrible KG. Not only did he kill a king, two others died while he was in service and... he actually smuggled away someone he thought was a kingslayer.

[Ludd]

Look Jaime took a spur of the moment decision when still young, which has affected his life and his honour and his reputation.

The parralels with Jon and Aemon are interesting. Each was tested three times

Once for Love (Aemon guess), (Jon - Ygritte), (Jaime - Cersai)

Once for Family (Aemon during the rebellion), (Jon -when Rob b goes to war), Jaime - when he is asked to choose Aerys or Tywin),

Once for personal power/gain (Aemon when he refused the kingship), (Jon when he refused Winterfell), (Jaime when seeing an empty throne)

Now in each case Jon and Aemon chose honour and vows ahead of other loves. Jaime in each case chose love, family and personal gain.

Now in Jaime's defence, he was young (so was Jon), also each temptation came together so it was overwhelming, Jaime had no time to think or reflect on his actions, so behaved impulsively, and Jaime had no friends of family or direwolf acting to help him keep his vows.

So while we can sympathise with Jaime - his choices were hard and he had to make them in a split second, they nevertheless coloured his life and in terms of honour were the wrong choices. Once he had abondonned his honour once, like so many others he continued to recklessly pursue a dishonourable path.

Perhaps if Arthur Dayne had lived, Jaime may have redeemed himself earlier, but he had no such mentor.

Once he made that split second decision to kill Aerys, Jaime pursued knowingly a dishonourable life course and for this there is little justification. The continued affair with Cersai, despite swearing allegiance to Robert is the most serious of his actions. He screwed his king's wife, as well as his sister. He broke oaths to man and the gods. Had Jaime wished to gain any sense of personal honour he should never have sworn allegiance to Robert, but rather gone into exile in Essos, or at least at Casterley rock.

[Dagon]

I get the feeling some people here would have rather him let the entire city be burned. In that case, I'm glad Jaime made the call and not them.

[Ludd]

Dagon

Jaime has given self justification for his actions in killing Aerys ie the fact he was going to burn the city and the fact that he had witnessed the burning of Rickard and perhaps others.

However also remember that he had to make a choice between killing Tywin or Aerys. He chose Tywin.

The problem with whitewashing Jaime's actions are:

1. In Westeros breaking a vow to protect the king is taken VERY seriously. Jaime must have known that

2. Jaime sat on the throne - if he was so nobly motivated I think he may have found a better way to spend his time, rather than appearing to gloat and to savour expected power.

3. He did forget the children and after killing Aerys his vows were to the children. His decision to sit on the throne awaiting his father's arrival, tneds more to the view that he was savouring expected future glory, that fulfilling vows or even saving the city.

4. He swore allegiance to Robert, yet dishonoured him and betrayed him daily with his sister.

5. By the time we meet him at Winterfell he is able to cold bloodedly try to kill a young boy, for witnessing his incest. Once again he chose the dishonourable course.

Now I appreciate that Jaime is now on a redemption arc, seeking to reclaim the honourable boy that aspired to be Arthur Dayne. This is all good and we can wish him well. Bit it is morally repugnant to deny that this redemption is long overdue and that he has spent 15 years being a dishonourable, treacherous git.

[Viserys - The last dragon]

Well, he must have known that Aegon was killed? Because, if my memory is correct, Jaime thought of crowning Viserys after the death of Aerys.. He would not have those thoughts if he thought Aegon was alive.

[Bael's Bastard]

No, because he never thought Tywin would harm them, so he never would have thought to try.

[Dagon]

Dagon

Jaime has given self justification for his actions in killing Aerys ie the fact he was going to burn the city and the fact that he had witnessed the burning of Rickard and perhaps others.

However also remember that he had to make a choice between killing Tywin or Aerys. He chose Tywin.

The problem with whitewashing Jaime's actions are:

1. In Westeros breaking a vow to protect the king is taken VERY seriously. Jaime must have known that

2. Jaime sat on the throne - if he was so nobly motivated I think he may have found a better way to spend his time, rather than appearing to gloat and to savour expected power.

3. He did forget the children and after killing Aerys his vows were to the children. His decision to sit on the throne awaiting his father's arrival, tneds more to the view that he was savouring expected future glory, that fulfilling vows or even saving the city.

4. He swore allegiance to Robert, yet dishonoured him and betrayed him daily with his sister.

5. By the time we meet him at Winterfell he is able to cold bloodedly try to kill a young boy, for witnessing his incest. Once again he chose the dishonourable course.

Now I appreciate that Jaime is now on a redemption arc, seeking to reclaim the honourable boy that aspired to be Arthur Dayne. This is all good and we can wish him well. Bit it is morally repugnant to deny that this redemption is long overdue and that he has spent 15 years being a dishonourable, treacherous git.

He's no saint, I don't think he's ever claimed to be. The fact is that he made the right call - no matter his justification. He could have been tired of looking at his face for all I care. And I'm pretty sure he stated he was going to crown Aegon, but decided to let the realm deal with it.

And betraying Robert with Cercei? I find it extremely hard to care. He was infatuated with her. And I'm pretty sure the most effort Robert put into bonding with Cercei is a backhand to the face. The whole "loyalty before death" belief is unreasonable and short-sighted. And bringing up other idiotic things that he's done doesn't deter from the fact he made the right call. People like Barristan and Eddard, while well-meaning, likely would have let thousands of people burn alive. I'll take a Kingslayer any day.

[Cloud]

Well, he must have known that Aegon was killed? Because, if my memory is correct, Jaime thought of crowning Viserys after the death of Aerys.. He would not have those thoughts if he thought Aegon was alive.

Why? Viserys is Aerys's son and therefore first in line for succession. Aegon is Rhaegar's son. Since Rhaegar died, Viserys has the strongest claim.

ETA

ASOS 11 (After Jaime kills the king)

Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall and others of his father's knights burst into the hall in time to see the last of it, so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame. It would be blame, he knew at once when he saw the way they looked at him . . . though perhaps that was fear. Lannister or no, he was one of Aerys's seven.

"The castle is ours, ser, and the city," Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin's son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive."

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.

[maarsen]

I think that Jaime did not know the children were in danger. If he suspected, I imagine he would have done his duty and taken on Ser Gregor. And chopped him into bits. Ser Gregor for all his size has not shown a lot of skill as a fighter, being beaten by Renly, a much smaller man, being fought to a standstill by his brother, and skewered by Oberyn. The only time he has come out ahead is when fighting children. Jaime had the skill and the speed and the fearlessness to take on the Mountain and win.

[Bael's Bastard]

Why? Viserys is Aerys's son and therefore first in line for succession. Aegon is Rhaegar's son. Since Rhaegar died, Viserys has the strongest claim.

It goes to the heir then the son of the heir before it goes to a lesser son of the king. Obviously victorious rebels are going to do what they want, though, and they made Rhaelle's grandson king.

[Viserys - The last dragon]

Why? Viserys is Aerys's son and therefore first in line for succession. Aegon is Rhaegar's son. Since Rhaegar died, Viserys has the strongest claim.

ETA

ASOS 11 (After Jaime kills the king)

Nope :) Aegon would come before Viserys. The son of the first son, comes before the second son. Those are the rules!

[Cloud]

Nope :) Aegon would come before Viserys. The son of the first son, comes before the second son. Those are the rules!

Whoops. My bad then.

Nevertheless, he did think of Aegon (as in the quote above) - so he thought they would be OK.

[Viserys - The last dragon]

Whoops. My bad then.

Nevertheless, he did think of Aegon (as in the quote above) - so he thought they would be OK.

Yes. My bad as well then ;)

Anyways, my opinion on the matter is that Jaime should've gone to Elia and her children. Not because he thought that they might be in danger, but because that was his place after Aerys was dead. Jaime clearly respected Rhaegar, and therefor i am a little surprised that he did not watch over his children- BUT he was 17 years old, and had a lot of other things on his mind. I suppose I as well could have handled the situation similar.

[Dagon]

Yes. My bad as well then ;)

Anyways, my opinion on the matter is that Jaime should've gone to Elia and her children. Not because he thought that they might be in danger, but because that was his place after Aerys was dead. Jaime clearly respected Rhaegar, and therefor i am a little surprised that he did not watch over his children- BUT he was 17 years old, and had a lot of other things on his mind. I suppose I as well could have handled the situation similar.

And at 17 I don't think he'd be able to do much against the Mountain.

[Russo]

Just an answer to the OP, he could have. Elia would have survived for sure, when Tywin arrived he may have executed the children. Gregor isnt so dumg to cut down Jaime to kill Elia and the kids. But he was only around 17 and naive I think, he just didnt think they would be harmed.

[Alty732]

Jaime is a terrible KG. Not only did he kill a king, two others died while he was in service and... he actually smuggled away someone he thought was a kingslayer.

Wow, this is really a uneducated post.

1. Aerys was gonna burn the city

2. The two other kings died, WHILE HE WAS CAPTURED

3. He thought Sansa did it, and also he thought joffery deserved it anyway

[DreamSongs]

Oh, it's quite simple. Jaime believed Elia and the kids were safe.

I agree. He did not foresee Lannister forces harming the children.

Besides, he didn't have the time. Lannister men entered the throne room just as Jaime completed the killing.