Could Jaime have defended Elia?

[Gurkhal]

Oh, it's quite simple. Jaime believed Elia and the kids were safe.

Gotta to agree with this. And contrary to popular belief few people, including Jaime, can be at several places at once and can see into the future.

[David Selig]

As I said in the other thread, being dumb is not a good excuse.

[Arya kiddin']

Fan armor is infinitely stronger than plot armor. Ignorance is bliss.

[MasterJack]

You just killed the king, the deed is big enough the freeze your brain at least 1h no? what is 3 more lives when you saved(not pure-heartedly) half a million. give him a break.

I prefer Jaime doing good things with bad intentions than another POV who does bad things with good intention

[Anath]

Regardelss there was a battle going on, Tywin dosent have to order someone to kill them for them to still be in danger. If he was truly the 'misunderstood person' a lot of people think he is then he wouldve tried to protect them.

Protect them from what? As long as he knew, no one had any interest of harming them - not Targaryen loyalists and not his father.

Jaime is not one for deep thinking. The one time he did try to throw some thought and consideration in. Jonothor Darry taught him his place.

[Gurkhal]

As I said in the other thread, being dumb is not a good excuse.

Maybe not, but not being omniscient is a fact of human existence and that includes Jaime. And try to judge them for what a human can reasonably have been able to do, and not what an all-powerful god would've been able to do.

[Anath]

As I said in the other thread, being dumb is not a good excuse.

No but with Jaime, it's a fact. I like him but I freely acknowledge that rarely bothered to use his brains. Why should he when he had his sword!

[Ours if the Fury]

Look i have to say stark lovers and lannister haters are going to disagree ... with anything that inclines Jamie couldnt do anything to save elia

[Nausicaä]

I don't see the point of blaming Jaime for Elia's and the children's deaths. If he went to Aegon like he considered, things could have turned out differently, but it's not possible to say for certain whether it would have ended with Jaime saving them, Jaime being too late to save them or Jaime dying in the attempt to save them. For me his rejection of the idea of crowning Aegon is mainly important because it adds tragic irony to the story: Jaime doesn't go to get baby Aegon because he has Aerys' blood in his veins and may turn out to be just as crazy, but then Jaime's own child that he helped put on the throne turns out to be Aerys' spiritual successor (and may also have his blood in his veins, if you subscribe to the A+J=J&C theory, like I do).

Judging by Jaime's dream where he tries to explain himself to his shadows, he does feel some guilt/responsibility:

“He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”
“He was your king,” said Darry.
“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.
“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”
“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”
“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

[Alty732]

Hold up, unless there is facts to contradict this, Jaime explains this.

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”

Jaime was in his chambers when he got the letter to go kill his father cause Tywin just attacked. He realized what was happening, so he went and killed the head pyromancer, then found aerys, and killed him as well. The way he makes it sound in his dream is that the two accounts overlap, while Jaime murdered Aerys, the children and elia were also murdered.

The dream does NOT just say he thought they would be ok, it also says he was with the king. there is your answer.

[Thendel]

We actually do know the rough timeframe of the baby slaying, as the Crakehall who came in on Jaime standing over Aerys' corpse reported that Gregor's team were scaling the walls.

Whether Jaime would have been physically able to intercede if he went to the nursery immediately is impossible to say. What is known is that Jaime never expected Elia and the children to be in any danger, and I find that a reasonable excuse: One, Jaime is seventeen and no political mastermind, two, he would presumably not be aware of Gregor and Lorch's reputation at that point, and three, it was an unexpected move from Tywin to order the deaths of Rhaegar's children - most would have expected simply taking them hostage.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Uhm, Tywin Lannister is their liege lord. Jaime is his eldest son. They would not have pushed Jaime aside or worse, fight him. As bannermen of the Lannisters, they owe both Tywin AND Jaime their allegiance. Suppose they throw Jaime out of the room and proceed to kill the Targs... what would Tywin do, given his opinion on slights to his family? What future reprisals could they expect if Jaime would (against the odds since being a knight of the KG) succeed Tywin als lord of Casterly Rock? They would probably have a stand-off until Tywin would step in.

They neither owed Jaime a thing nor did they actually need to harm him to complete their mission. As David Selig's quote proves, Tywin had given a direct order that the children be killed. If Jaime had just been removed from the room (which I'll admit would have been a bit difficult to pull off without harming him) and the kids killed as planned, I doubt Tywin would have been that pissed, especially since Jaime had clearly been obstructing his orders. And while I wouldn't go so far as to say neither Lorch nor Gregor would have simply ignored who Jaime was, technically he was a knight of the Kingsguard defending the royal family, and thus their enemy. They wouldn't have killed him, but they wouldn't have been so dumbfounded as to just stand there and wait for Tywin.

[sertravisredbeard]

I'm a Jaime sycophant so I'll go ahead and defend him again. Things happened too quickly. As some above posters have already pointed out, he told Crakehall and Westerling they could go find Aegon and Rhaenys and declare one of them ruler if they wanted to. He just didn't guess that his father had given orders to kill Elia and the children.

I don't really like Tywin, but I can sort of believe him when he said he didn't know what he had on his hands with Gregor at that point. Could anybody except maybe Sandor have predicted that Gregor would be the definition of monster? If you asked all the invading forces, I'm sure no one would have guessed that a random seventeen-year old Lannister bannerman would kill Aegon and rape his mother with his blood still on his hands.

[Gneisenau]

If Jaime tried to protect Elia, he would have to fight Gregor Clegane.

I am of the opinion that Gregor Clegane is probably the best fighter in Westeros (due to a combination of size and skill), so Jaime probably wouldn't be able to protect Elia.

[Dagon]

If Jaime tried to protect Elia, he would have to fight Gregor Clegane.

I am of the opinion that Gregor Clegane is probably the best fighter in Westeros (due to a combination of size and skill), so Jaime probably wouldn't be able to protect Elia.

It's a tall order for sure.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that the way Jaime acts shows that he was not fit for the KG . He should have been trying to reach Elia Rhaenys or Aegon instead he was sitting on a chair waiting to see what will happen. He killed Aerys but he respect Rhaegar and was supposed to keep his children safe. Yet he failed because he didn't even try.

[Cloud]

As I said in the other thread, being dumb is not a good excuse.

Yet your accusations come from having 20-20 hindsight. Easy to say "Jaime should have prevented x, y and z" when x, y and z have already happened.

My $0.02:

He knew the Lannisters are sacking the city, he would know the orders would be to kill the Targspawn, he had a rough idea which brutal bunch will be sent to do the deed, and he knew the Lannister lackeys would've listened to him. He could've tried to save Elia, to overrule his father's authority. He didn't.

Edit: grammar

I don't get this at all. Why do you insist that Jaime knew the murders were going to happen when there's plenty of textual evidence stating that he clearly had no idea?

Where does it ever say that he knew the kids were going to be murdered, and what gives you the idea that Gregor/Amory would have listened to him when he clearly was their enemy (by being in the kingsguard)?

[Gurkhal]

I think that the way Jaime acts shows that he was not fit for the KG . He should have been trying to reach Elia Rhaenys or Aegon instead he was sitting on a chair waiting to see what will happen. He killed Aerys but he respect Rhaegar and was supposed to keep his children safe. Yet he failed because he didn't even try.

Its hard to try when you don't know what's going on. Since Jaime didn't know that the Targaryen children were to be killed he could hardly be expected to know that they needed protection.

[Minsc]

Its hard to try when you don't know what's going on. Since Jaime didn't know that the Targaryen children were to be killed he could hardly be expected to know that they needed protection.

Yes, because nothing bad ever happens during a sack. Moreover, it isn't like his father is a raging asshole that earned his fame when he wiped out two houses.

Furthermore, even if he didn't think they were in danger he still has a duty to be with his king and at that time baby Aegon was his king. Thus, he should have went even if he didn't think they were in danger just because of his other duties.

[Thendel]

Yes, because nothing bad ever happens during a sack. Moreover, it isn't like his father is a raging asshole that earned his fame when he wiped out two houses.

Furthermore, even if he didn't think they were in danger he still has a duty to be with his king and at that time baby Aegon was his king. Thus, he should have went even if he didn't think they were in danger just because of his other duties.

That's overreaching: The standard procedure concerning fighting nobles is that the noble must be taken captive whenever possible. Complications obviously arise when the noble refuses to go down without a fight, but that probably wasn't going to be the case with a woman and two infants. That Jaime is told that noblemen and landed knights are in charge of taking the keep certainly lends credence to his notion that the situation is well in hand.

As for Tywin's reputation: Yes, Jaime knows that song, but that's not a comparable situation: the extermination of houses Reyne and Tarbeck was due to open defiance, to which any noble can relate to why Tywin did it. Asshole he may be, but Tywin doesn't commit atrocities for no reason, and here it was pure political calculation that lead to the baby slaughter. And let me reiterate, no one saw it coming: The killing of three important nobles was so extreme that only few men as ruthless as Tywin could have fathomed it. At the age of seventeen, Jaime was not one such man.

And at this point, Jaime seemed to have given up on being Kingsguard, having, you know, killed the king and all. What, you expected him to go back to his Kingsguard duties with his blade still red with Aerys' blood like it never happened?