The Allure of Insanity

[Weeping Sore]

Is insanity attractive? Has the longing to explore the outer world been transmuted into an inner longing to transcend the confines of rational thought? Do we seek this unpredictability or danger in others as evidence of an unruly life force within ourselves? Is it better to just have a drink?

[Wise Fool]

Insanity is not all it's cracked up to be.

It's perceived as some kind of strange liberty, where the rules and norms no longer apply, and you can just say and do whatever you like and exist in this rich inner world of fantasy. But it's more like a prison than liberty; the rules have just changed and become weirder. Instead of doing whatever you like, you do whatever some strange inner force compels you to do, against your will; or more insidiously, merging with the very notion of what your will is, so that you rationalize and justify your actions while at the same time realizing how fucked up they are. You suffer in a nightmare-like haze of ritual and omen, with danger around every corner, bars on every window, with little hope of escaping.

Really, the confines, as you say, of rational thought, are confines frequently avoided and seldom obeyed. The very nature of emotion and intuition defy rational thinking. What we as "sane" people have is not a desire to escape rational thought, but to embrace it, and in so doing, live our lives according to principles and impose order and purpose on the chaotic and meaningless. But we can't, and so are tormented by desires and fears beyond our understanding... and wind up living in a nightmare-like haze of ritual and omen, with danger around every corner, bars on every window, and little hope of escaping.

Sanity isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[Weeping Sore]

Well said, WF. What about the inclination to date/mate the "neurodiverse" - adaptive or maladaptive? Are you automatically some kind of perpetual codependent if you are drawn to mental instability like the proverbial moth to flame?

[Pero the first of His name]

People who are troubled in finding pleasure, sense, fun and understanding with their rational minds will often be allured to find more satisfaction with being crazy. Or drunk. Or other things.

A part of us develops a strange amusement, fascination and even appreciation for crazy people.

We remember the fun we had with a crazy friend or a fling.

Yet going into a deeper relationship with those people seems to always end badly.

We either get sucked into their world, develop a bad, strange codependancy of opposite personalities or we end the relationship the relationship with many negative feelings towards eachother, which would not have happened if things were more superficial.

[Pero the first of His name]

Furthermore, crazy seems to be an adjective overly used in a kind of positive sense these days.

"Woooohooo, we will get craazyyy.

OMG take a picture of us being this crazy.

Wow, look over there, that guy is the craziest one here!"

[Sci-2]

I just want people to know that Weeping Sore is not an alt I made up.

He is his own person.

;-)

[maarsen]

Insanity is not just letting go and doing whatever. It is more like being caught in a web of superstitions that can't be reasoned away. Sort of like being very religious without the belief in a payoff.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I just want people to know that Weeping Sore is not an alt I made up.

He is his own person.

;-)

Well that's exactly what you would say....

But insanity definitely has some kind of Romantic allure. Maybe because the insane individual experiences a unique reality outside the realm of normal that could potentially offer insight into truths unknown or some kind of revelation about the human condition. Dunno.

Don't know if it's 'better' to just have a drink but sometimes it's easier?

[Fragile Bird]

I keep thinking both Weeping Sore and Wise Fool are Sci's alts. :idea:

[The BlackBear]

Well I have depression, (which is a mental illness, whether it's insanity?) and the girlfriend was into it. I think that was mainly based on her male role-model being her autistic brother though.

[Wise Fool]

Well said, WF. What about the inclination to date/mate the "neurodiverse" - adaptive or maladaptive? Are you automatically some kind of perpetual codependent if you are drawn to mental instability like the proverbial moth to flame?

Mental instability is a feature of civilization, and a trait of more or less everyone alive; while the mating instincts and the pleasure principle are biological traits of the species. Therefore to be drawn toward mentally unstable partners is nearly inevitable as long as one is drawn toward partners at all and those partners are human. As with everything, it's really a matter of degree. Normality, eccentricity and insanity exist in a spectrum, and the delineation between them is hard to define, fuzzy, and subjective.

The same is true of the phenomena of codependency, and for that matter alcoholism or addiction. To most people, the use of people or substances for some pleasurable perceived effect simply happens, sooner or later, at certain points; these problems occur when said use becomes problematic for themselves emotionally, physically, financially, or socially and they find they cannot control their own behavior. And yet the dividing line is unclear as to what, precisely, is the difference between (say) hard drinking and alcoholism; romantic love and codependency; or good old fashioned recreational heroin use and drug addiction.

In this present age, there is a definite set allure to problems, in general - there is a romance to it all. The hard-drinking, hard partying, hardcore sex having, serial monogamist, loose polyamorist, hard working, fine dining (or whatever) "lifestyles" seem glamorous because the idea is prevalent and pervasive in our collective mythology. "Normality," or sanity seems accursed with that terrible affliction: boring. So is it any surprise that there will be few people you or I know who live an ideal, sound, rational life, who have no personal, romantic, physical, social, psychological, financial, legal or behavioral problems of any sort? But this isn't the reason for such problems; it's just one excuse. The real problem is the overall dissonance and dysfunctionality of modern life, which, being rooted in the crime against nature we call "civilization," is just part of the package.

So it's maladaptive, but also inescapable except through extraordinary measures which few are willing and able to take.

[armidil0]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

[Weeping Sore]

The same is true of the phenomena of codependency, and for that matter alcoholism or addiction. To most people, the use of people or substances for some pleasurable perceived effect simply happens, sooner or later, at certain points; these problems occur when said use becomes problematic for themselves emotionally, physically, financially, or socially and they find they cannot control their own behavior. And yet the dividing line is unclear as to what, precisely, is the difference between (say) hard drinking and alcoholism; romantic love and codependency; or good old fashioned recreational heroin use and drug addiction.

"Normality," or sanity seems accursed with that terrible affliction: boring. So is it any surprise that there will be few people you or I know who live an ideal, sound, rational life, who have no personal, romantic, physical, social, psychological, financial, legal or behavioral problems of any sort? But this isn't the reason for such problems; it's just one excuse. The real problem is the overall dissonance and dysfunctionality of modern life, which, being rooted in the crime against nature we call "civilization," is just part of the package.

So it's maladaptive, but also inescapable except through extraordinary measures which few are willing and able to take.

First of all, The Use of People or Substances is a good album title.

It seems like you're saying that someone in a relationship with a mentally unstable person is using them like a drug, with the danger of spiralling into unhealthy dependency. But you go on to equate addiction and other non-normative behaviors themselves as falling into a spectrum of disordered mental states. Which is it?

I'm wondering if the allure of insanity in the desired person has some kind of totemic function. As in, those who are drawn to mental instability in others are looking to safely externalize their own mental illness, i.e., "he/she's the crazy one. the insanity in my life is from him/her." Or if you feel mentally unstable yourself, you might doubt that a "normal" person could empathize or connect with you fully.

The idea that madness is a symptom of civilization is attractive but I think incorrect. Certainly the "holy fool" or schizophrenic "shaman" pre-dates civilization as such. People used to give more credence to the idea that the voices schizophrenics heard were from gods or spirits that had to be heeded.

[locust]

Labels such as insane,crazy even demented have become over used and have lost a lot of their true meaning,they have become every day words associated with every day things.simple thing is insanity like so many other illnesses and conditions shouldn't ever be posted with a label making them normal run of the mill,For anyone who has ever been involved with a condition such as this or had to care for a loved one afflicted with this type of illness would ever class it as anything other than mind blowing,life altering, world shattering,certainly wouldn't be the inane way most of us accept these words and their meanings with such normality..

[Weeping Sore]

I just want people to know that Weeping Sore is not an alt I made up.

He is his own person.

;-)

Funny, you said the same thing about Vlad Puddin'.

[Weeping Sore]

bumping my own thread, here.

I've noticed people say, "If x doesn't happen, I'm going to go crazy" as if going crazy is a viable plan B. Why do we have this idea that insanity is a way out? Maybe just because of the implied abdication of responsibility for our lives?

[Lykos]

Weeping Sore, I think the behaviour that you're describing is that of "insane" people, that appear to be sane as long as the world plays along.

Of course most of the time it's just a hypebolic threat to leave the conventional tracks when they don't get their way. Most people are willing to try again and put in more effort or a different approach like patiently waiting for the right time and place for x to happen (my favorite method). If they're unable to adjust to the world - their only hope is to adjust the world to themselves otherwise their relationship with the world will be destructive and unhealthy - insane!

I think people rarely mean to flee into insanity. People usually need approval and affirmation from their outside world. It's not that easy to let go.

A friend of mine asked me
Where has he been
Where is he now?
I said he's been set free
Shares a little joke with the world somehow

Sounded like he'd make a halo
When I heard his laughter floating
It's all for fun you know
He said he just let go
Shares a little joke with the world

How can I make you as happy as I am
I feel like you're running
I know we could fly
Your eyes are never tired
Your mind is on fire
Your heart has never been satisfied

World around you
Never catches up with you

Some people are in love
Some people know everything can be done
I think you're joking
I believe in half of you
I want to journey
I want to laugh with you
But after you
Share a little joke with the world

World around you
Never catches up with you

Intoxication has been an accepted method to flee the everyday routine in most cultures.

Often mentaly unhinged people became the spokespersons with the otherworld, a way to comunicate with spirits, ancestors and gods, but more than one of them in a clan would lead to chaos.

All of this isn't insanity as I understand it, I think a person cannot be insane, it's the interaction with others that is unhealthy. (And while it's good from a scientific point of view to try to understand why a person has problems interacting in a sane way, it rarely is the most efficient way to help that person. Our minds are just too complex to understand them in one lifetime.)

Paul Watzlawick discribed a situation (I believe) in his "The Situation Is Hopeless, But Not Serious: The Pursuit of Unhappiness".

A husband is deeply distraught by his wife's habit to ask him wether he got it, when he wasn't aware that he was supposed to get anything and had no idea what it was. Every time his wife asked , he answered that he didn't know what she was talking about and this turned into an unpleastant argument.

Until one day he just played along and answered, when asked wether he got it, "yes".

"Where did you put it?" his wife asked. "Next to the others." he answered. And that answer was sufficient. No more arguements.

Adaptability, patience and acceptance are far more important to get along with the world than rationalism. Not all people have the same information, so they will not come to the same rational conclusions. Giving in to some "craziness" is often more effective, and success is attractive.

(Also check out Laing and his knots.)

So no, insanity holds no allure for me, but I like a little craziness sometimes.