What if Lyanna would have lived...

[juanml82]

Not this again. In the books TYWIN gave the order not Robert. TYWIN.

Yet he did and he didn't declare independence.

And Robert supported it. Ned left King's Landing livid at Robert and their relationship was only fixed due Lyanna's death.

There is just no way Ned is going let Robert "All I see is dragon spawn" Baratheon near Jon. And if Robert wants to fight it, all he needs to do is to withdraw North, fortify Moat Cailin and build an sculpture on top representing a closed fist, with a raised middle finger.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So what? Ned, Jon and Hoster made Robert King, they could unmake him far more easily.

Ned had ~20,000 Wolves in the South, Robert ~5,000 Stags, give or take. And the Falcons and Trouts would stand with the Wolves.

And no, Ned never would persuade his sister to marry the guy who widowed her.

Would they? That is a very interesting theory. And yes I think that Ned would make his sister marry the man she supposed to marry before Rhaegar kidnapped her instead of dishonoring his family.

edit:

And Robert supported it.

Interesting. Any proof?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

And yet Robert got the charisma. Robert was the one who could win allies and he had the Reach and Lannisters.

And that would help him win over the Northmen how? And he hadn't the Reach, he may have had the Lannisters - but they wouldn't fight to make Lyanna Queen!

[The Wolves]

I think he would, because that was what it should be done. If not then the whole world would know that the war was Lyanna's fault which would lead to the downfall of the family.

No he wouldn't force her there's no evidence that Ned would force his sister(who he loved more than anybody except his children IMO)to marry a man she didn't want to.

And no nobody would blame Lyanna 100% for the war and it would not be the Stark's downfall

Where are you coming up with these ideas about Ned putting Robert's wants above his sister's?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Interesting. Any proof?

He condoned the murder of the Targaryen children, and justified their murders by calling them "dragonspawn". He essentially reduced these innocent children into something less than human to justify Tywin's atrocities. He didn't even seek justice for them, or Elia. That was one of Robert's most disgusting acts, IMO.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And that would help him win over the Northmen how? And he hadn't the Reach, he may have had the Lannisters - but they wouldn't fight to make Lyanna Queen!

If the Northmen and co. saw that they died for nothing then he would have the powers he wants.

Where are you coming up with these ideas about Ned putting Robert's wants above his sister's?

Maybe because it was the honorable thing to do.

He condoned the murder of the Targaryen children, and justified their murders by calling them "dragonspawn". He essentially reduced these innocent children into something less than human to justify Tywin's atrocities. He didn't even seek justice for them, or Elia. That was one of Robert's most disgusting acts, IMO.

proof?

[TheMysteriousOne]

proof?

:rolleyes: The fact that you are asking me for evidence for such an obvious and well known fact... Suite yourself:

Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south.

[The Wolves]

Maybe because it was the honorable thing to do.

But when have Ned ever put honor above family?

And we saw in Ned's POVs that he didn't blame Lyanna for RR nor does he seem to care how people view his family that much.

And no it's not honorable to force your sister to marry someone she doesn't want to. Robert doesn't matter that much to Ned

[Jon's Queen Consort]

But when have Ned ever put honor above family?

And we saw in Ned's POVs that he didn't blame Lyanna for RR nor does he seem to care how people view his family that much.

And no it's not honorable to force your sister to marry someone she doesn't want to. Robert doesn't matter that much to Ned

It's the honorable thing to do if you don't want your family to be a pariah. It's like he did for honor and family. He married Cat because it was his duty to the family. Like Lyanna.

:rolleyes: The fact that you are asking me for evidence for such an obvious and well known fact... Suite yourself:

Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south.

And? The moment he would kill a child he would be a child killer since he hadn't done it he wasn't.

[TheMysteriousOne]

It's the honorable thing to do if you don't want your family to be a pariah. It's like he did for honor and family. He married Cat because it was his duty to the family. Like Lyanna.

And? The moment he would kill a child he would be a child killer since he hadn't done it he wasn't.

No one said that he was a child murderer. What we've been saying is that he condoned the murder of these innocent children, did not seek justice for them, and then called them 'dragonspawn', in order to justify the atrocities committed against them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No one said that he was a child murderer. What we've been saying is that he condoned the murder of these innocent children, did not seek justice for them, and then called them 'dragonspawn', in order to justify the atrocities committed against them.

Sinse the children's father/family didn't cared about them, why should Robert give a second though on them?

[The Wolves]

It's the honorable thing to do if you don't want your family to be a pariah. It's like he did for honor and family. He married Cat because it was his duty to the family. Like Lyanna.

What makes you think the Starks will be a pariah?

And Ned or Lyanna does not have to honor any marriage contract when

A. Their father made the contract

B. Lyanna never wanted the marriage

Also Ned does not care what people think of him, so why should he worry what a bunch of Southern fools will think of him and his?

He'll still be Lord of a great House and Warden of the North, Ned barely interacted with the South as Lord of Winterfell so why would he care what they thought?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Sinse the children's father/family didn't cared about them, why should Robert give a second though on them?

Maybe because Robert was the king, and it is the king's duty to bring justice to his people. Maybe because he should have cared about what happened to them out of simple human decency. Just because the childrens' parents, in your opinion, didn't care about them, doesn't excuse Robert's behavior. That's like saying I shouldn't care about a kid being sexually abused by someone, because the parents don't care.

No offense, but your logic can be very appalling.

[SIrDuncan the Tall]

What happened at the Tower of Joy is all speculation. What if she did survive. Ned still takes in Jon and Brings Dawn back to Starfall, and follows the course that we all know. He has a false tomb built along with the Lords of Winterfell even though it was unusual It was only place to hide the secret.... However, knowing he couldn't send Lyanna to marry Robert because she is no longer a maiden. As their liege he ask Howland Reed to take Lyanna as his wife. Reed rushes her back to the neck. It takes time for her to adjust and get over her ordeal, but eventually she comes to love the crannogman she stuck up for at the tourney of Harrenhal. We can see it takes a few years by the age of Meera and Jojen, and he never comes to Winterfell with his wife for feast or anything. He will eventually come out and it will be Lyanna that tells Jon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What makes you think the Starks will be a pariah?

Maybe the fact that they would be dishonored?

And Ned or Lyanna does not have to honor any marriage contract when

A. Their father made the contract

B. Lyanna never wanted the marriage

And yet that is how it works in Westeros.

He'll still be Lord of a great House and Warden of the North, Ned barely interacted with the South as Lord of Winterfell so why would he care what they thought?

Would he? How would the Northern Lords react if they learn that they died for a girl's caprice?

What make you think that they couldn't revolt after fighting for nothing because Lyanna's actions?

Maybe because Robert was the king, and it is the king's duty to bring justice to his people. Maybe because he should have cared about what happened to them out of simple human decency. Just because the childrens' parents, in your opinion, didn't care about them, doesn't excuse Robert's behavior. That's like saying I shouldn't care about a kid being sexually abused by someone, because the parents don't care.

1. Robert wasn't a King when it happened.

2. Targs were not his people they were his enemies.

3. Human decency doesn't exist in Westeros.

No offense, but your logic can be very appalling.

To you.

...However, knowing he couldn't send Lyanna to marry Robert because she is no longer a maiden...

Robert wanted Lyanna despite the fact that, from all he knew, Rhaegar raped her. So I don't think he would mind if she was a maiden or not.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If the Northmen and co. saw that they died for nothing then he would have the powers he wants.

Lyanna didn't matter for war. Brandon and Rickard did, but not Lyanna, except as a means to start Brandon moving. Which is a personal problem, but not a political one.

And the Northmen didn't die for Robert the King. They died to unseat Aerys for murdering Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark - which happened. Robert is nothing to them, as his brothers would be 15 years later.

[Consigliere]

What happened at the Tower of Joy is all speculation. What if she did survive. Ned still takes in Jon and Brings Dawn back to Starfall, and follows the course that we all know. He has a false tomb built along with the Lords of Winterfell even though it was unusual It was only place to hide the secret.... However, knowing he couldn't send Lyanna to marry Robert because she is no longer a maiden. As their liege he ask Howland Reed to take Lyanna as his wife. Reed rushes her back to the neck. It takes time for her to adjust and get over her ordeal, but eventually she comes to love the crannogman she stuck up for at the tourney of Harrenhal. We can see it takes a few years by the age of Meera and Jojen, and he never comes to Winterfell with his wife for feast or anything. He will eventually come out and it will be Lyanna that tells Jon.

The speculation is based on textual evidence. The rest of your post reads like fanfiction to me.

[TheMysteriousOne]

1. Robert wasn't a King when it happened.

2. Targs were not his people they were his enemies.

3. Human decency doesn't exist in Westeros.

1. Robert was king when he saw their corpses. He should have done justice for them, but he didn't. He disgustingly condoned their murders.

2. The Targaryen children were not Robert's enemies, they were children. The children did nothing to earn the gruesome deaths they got, and suggesting otherwise is atrocious.

3. LOL. :rolleyes: Not even going to bother with this clearly false point.

[Ice Turtle]

There was no way Lyanna would could still be Robert's queen. I have my doubts that Robert really loved her, but even if he did she was not an acceptable bride and I can imagine that Ned, Hoster, Jon Arryn, Tywin and maybe even Doran would be against it.

I think that she would have returned North or went to Essos and never married again.

As for Jon there is still a chance that Nedl would have claimed him as his bastard to keep him safe if there was a chance to keep his true parentage a secret.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lyanna didn't matter for war. Brandon and Rickard did, but not Lyanna, except as a means to start Brandon moving. Which is a personal problem, but not a political one.

And the Northmen didn't die for Robert the King. They died to unseat Aerys for murdering Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark - which happened. Robert is nothing to them, as his brothers would be 15 years later.

Ned brought them to a war that started because Rhaegar abducted Lyanna which make Brandon go to KL and eventually die. How they would react if they learn that Lyanna and her actions are responsible for her family's deaths and for their own dead?

1. Robert was king when he saw their corpses. He should have done justice for them, but he didn't. He disgustingly condoned their murders.

He could do nothing for them rather just starting a new war.

2. The Targaryen children were not Robert's enemies, they were children. The children did nothing to earn the gruesome deaths they got, and suggesting otherwise is atrocious.

Their name was Targaryen making them the enemy. He had no reason to care for his enemy. Would Aerys or the Targs in general care if Renly died or not? Don't think so.