The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[butterbumps!]

I agree about the Tormund/Jon conversation. I thought it was one of the most poignant moment in the the series.

Why are the Watchmen allowing Slynt to act as though he has any kind of authority?

Unless I'm overlooking something, I think Thorne/ Slynt are basically exploiting the Watch's current confusion, weakness and chaos-- there's no one there to really provide much of a challenge to their filling a power vacuum. There just aren't a lot of men around, either dead/ not returned from the ranging, or still off fighting feints, like Bowen.

And yea, Tormund just adds a particular type of pathos to the story.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, bumps!

"You will die in here Lord Snow," Ser Alliser had said.

I think this foreshadows Lord Snow dying in the ice cells of the Wall where they store meat, and a new Jon (Targaryen) being born.

• Tormund makes a statement about Ygritte that might have some deeper implications: “Well, the hottest fires burn out quickest.” I think this might be apropos to Dany.

I thought of Dany as well when I read this.

"Snow," it screamed at him. "Snow. snow."

It seems Mormont's raven found its way back.

The skin was full of mead, but a mead so potent that it made Jon's eyes water and sent tendrils of fire snaking through his chest. After the ice cell and the cold ride down in the cage, the warmth was welcome.

More dragon imagery; mead is said to bring knowledge, and the mead making Jon's eyes water could foreshadow Jon's initial reaction to truth of the fire side of his heritage. The "warmth was welcome" could mean that Jon will eventually come to terms with his heritage and embrace that aspect of himself.

Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.

Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.

A baby is born, only in Dalla's case the child lives but the mother dies while in Dany's case the mother lives but the child dies. A maegi, MMD, was in the tent, and I think Val, according to bemused, could be an Old Gods form of maegi, akin to the Norse volva. We also have a Targaryen, Jon alongside Dany. There was a khal in the khal's tent who was being revived by the maegi, and I think the one in the king's tent will helped to be revived by Val.

[Lummel]

...The connection between death and memory is pretty pervasive in the series, such as Sansa’s thinking that the saddest part of death is not being remembered or not achieving a sense of immortality in song. That’s more or less the heart of Jon’s conflict, but in his case, he’s struggling with the possibility that he’ll get immortality, but as a villain. I think there might be a fairly major comparison to Jaime’s 2 preceding chapters to this end in terms of his reflections on the White Book...

hiltless swords and such...

Your description of Jon's conflict is really interesting and marks a change in him - he is not so conflicted in Jon II ASOS when he considers assassinating The Mance on the fist of the first men. Then he feels awkward about the prospect but here the judgement of history or even THE JUDGEMENT OF HISTORY really weighs heavily on him!

Yes the horn of winter. I suppose we can read this in different ways. Mance and Dalla know it is a fake, Mance believes it is real but Dalla knows it is a fake, or both believe it to be real...

I like the bitterness of the admission that The Mance can't protect his people from the White Walkers and I think the point that you bring out of how he skates over the issue of maintaining the king's peace, providing law and so on is an important one. Here in a few words we see the hard limits of The Mance's power.

[butterbumps!]

I like the bitterness of the admission that The Mance can't protect his people from the White Walkers and I think the point that you bring out of how he skates over the issue of maintaining the king's peace, providing law and so on is an important one. Here in a few words we see the hard limits of The Mance's power.

One thing that's bothering me about Mance's "terms" is the lack of a stronger appeal to the common foe. That is, Mance uses his reluctance to blow the horn to underscore the fact that the he really doesn't want the Wall to fall since he's looking for the same protection from the Others the Watch is supposed to provide for the realm. This and the fact that Mance admits he's previously tried to take a stand against them is some serious common ground with the purposes of the Watch. In addition to this, we'll find out in DwD that Mance is a spring of good intel about the Others and has experience to this end.

Now, why doesn't Mance appeal to that usefulness here? And why not offer to truly make common cause? He talks about hiding behind the Wall, and appeals to the fact that he knows the Watch is terribly depleted, but why doesn't he offer to augment the Watch's forces and give intel, being as how they are fighting the same enemy? I realize there's a line between appearing to be a threat to the Watch, and proving that he's not coming to conquer Mance is trying to walk, but I think an appeal to cooperation in the real battle might be a good thing to sell here.

[Lummel]

Hmm. You say that Mance is a good source of intelligence in ADWD about the white walkers, but we don't actually know that. What we have is Stannis saying that Mance knows much and more about the enemy, but what does Stannis know? Less than we do as readers. Mance could simply be telling Stannis the few things that we already know but which will be fresh and interesting to Stannis hitherto ignorant of the white walkers. Mance doesn't necessary have any special or extra knowledge that we don't know :dunno:

I think this also gets back to the question raised earlier about The Mance's tactics and unfortunately this obliges us to speculate about what Mance's head is stuffed with. If his primary motivation was always to take shelter behind the Wall, pushing the Night's Watch and the power of the Northern Lords out of the way but facing the possibility of having to defend the Wall and fight off opposition from the south then it might indicate just how much of a hard sell Mance considered it to be to convince the Watch to let him through the Wall. Why from the POV of the Watch should they let tens of thousands of Wildlings into the north? Doubly so when Mance isn't prepared to guarantee that he can maintain law and peace among the wildling community?

Having said that if Mance truly believed that negotiating his way through the wall was going to be that hard I wonder all the more why he didn't build a massive fleet of small boats and go round the Wall rather than to rely so much on one party of Thenns capturing the black gate...

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Tormund makes a statement about Ygritte that might have some deeper implications: “Well, the hottest fires burn out quickest.” I think this might be apropos to Dany.

You can't read that and NOT think of Dany, but I'm undecided as to whether it will really apply to her. With their affinity for fire, lots of "fiery" Targs have burned for long stretches.

One thing that's bothering me about Mance's "terms" is the lack of a stronger appeal to the common foe.

....

Now, why doesn't Mance appeal to that usefulness here? And why not offer to truly make common cause?

I find it very difficult to determine how much political clout Mance actually has with his followers. He doesn't seem to be willing to offer much by way of concessions to the NW in return for passage. I'm not sure if this is just his first offer in what he believes to a proper negotiation, or if he really can't offer more and expect to retain leadership. (Many of his followers have a pronounced "Live free or die" philosophy.) We may never know, since Stannis makes the whole issue a moot point.

[butterbumps!]

Hmm. You say that Mance is a good source of intelligence in ADWD about the white walkers, but we don't actually know that. What we have is Stannis saying that Mance knows much and more about the enemy, but what does Stannis know? Less than we do as readers. Mance could simply be telling Stannis the few things that we already know but which will be fresh and interesting to Stannis hitherto ignorant of the white walkers. Mance doesn't necessary have any special or extra knowledge that we don't know :dunno:

I think this also gets back to the question raised earlier about The Mance's tactics and unfortunately this obliges us to speculate about what Mance's head is stuffed with. If his primary motivation was always to take shelter behind the Wall, pushing the Night's Watch and the power of the Northern Lords out of the way but facing the possibility of having to defend the Wall and fight off opposition from the south then it might indicate just how much of a hard sell Mance considered it to be to convince the Watch to let him through the Wall. Why from the POV of the Watch should they let tens of thousands of Wildlings into the north? Doubly so when Mance isn't prepared to guarantee that he can maintain law and peace among the wildling community?

Having said that if Mance truly believed that negotiating his way through the wall was going to be that hard I wonder all the more why he didn't build a massive fleet of small boats and go round the Wall rather than to rely so much on one party of Thenns capturing the black gate...

I agree that Stannis knows less than we do by that point, but I thought Jon also believes Mance might be a good resource on this (in DwD), as well as a benefit to get the wildlings to behave in some capacity, however limited.

I think we're supposed to understand that what Mance is proposing is a really hard sell to the Watch, so I'm with it on that, with or without the promise of cooperation against a common threat offered.

I wonder what Mance's original plan was, and if that helps us assess this. He says "no man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," which seems to suggest he had a few contingency plans. I wonder if sending Jarl and Styr wasn't the original plan, necessarily, but something that made sense once they knew of Mormont's ranging. In light of the ranging, this was probably a really good plan; Styr would have succeeded, too, had he not gotten too excited and chased the breaking men rather than just take the gate, which he had the chance to do.

I think undermining and building a fleet would be rather larger undertakings, but in the context of Mormont's ranging, the Styr plan kind of makes a lot of sense. I think there's an argument that after the Styr attack failed, perhaps Mance should have gone with the undermining or fleet, but I wonder if that's also explained by how easy a target Mance expected the Watch to be, especially after the Watch would have suffered losses in Styr's attack.

I find it very difficult to determine how much political clout Mance actually has with his followers. He doesn't seem to be willing to offer much by way of concessions to the NW in return for passage. I'm not sure if this is just his first offer in what he believes to a proper negotiation, or if he really can't offer more and expect to retain leadership. (Many of his followers have a pronounced "Live free or die" philosophy.) We may never know, since Stannis makes the whole issue a moot point.

That's true. They were still talking this through when they were interrupted by horns; I kind of wonder if that was the next place Mance would take it.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I wonder what Mance's original plan was, and if that helps us assess this. He says "no man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," which seems to suggest he had a few contingency plans. I wonder if sending Jarl and Styr wasn't the original plan, necessarily, but something that made sense once they knew of Mormont's ranging. In light of the ranging, this was probably a really good plan; Styr would have succeeded, too, had he not gotten too excited and chased the breaking men rather than just take the gate, which he had the chance to do.

:agree:

Especially the part about Styr's raid being a response to Mormont's ranging.

[Lummel]

It is also quite possible that the Mance was under more pressure from the white walkers and/or less able to resist than he had expected when he came south. So the single reliance on Styr and the Thenns might have been a reaction rather than the original intention.

[Queen Alienor]

Hello, I've followed this thread for a while and I have to say it's really awesome! All this observations, really interesting stuff!

I've always found this line rather telling:

You died brave in battle, storming the castle of a foe.

Jon thinks about Ygritte here. In the beginning, Jon seems to not really respect women as a threat. Here he clearly thinks of Ygritte as a warrior, even applies westerosi values of being a hero to her. She died in battle, she died well. On one hand he maybe tries to feel better about it, thinking that she would have wanted to die this way, on the other in acknowledging Ygritte as a warrior he also shows her great respect.

[Bleiz]

Hi All!

First post here, so be gentle :kiss:

On reading this chapter something struck out at me that I thought that I would throw out there. in this chapter we get Dalla's insightful remark on sorcery:

"We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

Once I came upon this my mind recalled this passage way back in Jon X in ACOK

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served.

I can't shake the feeling that these two are connected together.

Obsidian, as we find out, possesses some magic like qualities in the sense it is able to kill the ice-made-flesh others where man forged steel fails. Jon literally, albeit on a smaller scale, creates a workable hilt for the dagger out of simple materials in order to make it useful/serviceable for his needs, without making such a hilt he would cause himself injury, break the dagger or both. Also interesting to note is that Jon shares his improvised boon - a "newly hilted" dagger - to Grenn, which later saves his life (this incident with puddles)

Perhaps this second passage is subtle foreshadowing that Jon will find a way to fashion a metaphorical "hilt" for a sorcery-based weapon that can be used and shared with allies to fight against the long night :dunno: While this "hilt" may be rough around the edges or "Ugly" in Jon's words, it would serve its purposes.

It may be reaching, but I though it was an interesting connection :blush:

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I know a lot of people cite the Stannis! moment as a big moment. But I always read it as really "Meh" based on Jon's reaction.

[Ragnorak]

Nice work, Butterbumps.

What stood out most to me rereading the chapter was the idea of a "true king." That seems to be the undertone of the chapter on a number of levels. Jon even asks Mance if he is a true king and I think Mance's reaction is telling. But prior to asking Jon reflects on letting the Wildlings through.

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore?

Jon's first thoughts are about protecting the people of the North and his "true king" question is born of this protective impulse--a king protects his people, or he is no king at all. Mance's response is interesting to ponder if we consider it a commentary on true kings.

“Are you a true king?” Jon asked suddenly.

The response is really divided into what Mance is not followed by what he is.

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires.

This is a rejection of the trappings of power, the hereditary and class system, etc. It is the absolute antithesis of all things Kings Landing. This is followed by what Mance is and how he became king. In short Mance became king by being a conqueror:

They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.”

As for the three qualities Mance chooses to ascribe to himself that other kings "delegate" to others he says, "I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist." Being one's own champion strikes me as a facet of wielding the sword in the First Men tradition of justice. Being a fool reminds me of the Fisher King along with a myriad of other "fool" references. Being a harpist recalls the lessons of history, the power of songs, the victor writing the history, as well as the title of our series.

Mance fails in the end, but I don't think he is a negative model for a "true king" even if imperfect. Also worth noting is the idea of a "true queen" which also comes up just before the true king discussion.

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. “We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

“But once the Wall is fallen,” Dalla said, “what will stop the Others?”
Mance gave her a fond smile. “It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.”

The "true queen" counsels restraint and speaks of future consequences of the rash use of force. A pregnant Dalla plays the role of The Mother and her words are the wisdom of The Crone. The true queen's concern for the future in her desire to avoid the nuclear option is a variation of Cat's choice to free Jamie. It is the polar opposite of Tywin's zero sum game choices. It triggers my speculation about Sansa's future, but many have noted Dany parallels and I think the "true queen" part deserves some attention in that regard. Dany is odd because in Meereen she's trying to embody the roles of both Mance and Dalla here which in many ways mirrors her dragon vs. tree planting/Mother vs. Conqueror inner conflict. She's trying to be the true king and true queen in a series where we typically see a King and a Hand or a Doran and Oberyn team fulfilling just the true king type of role. I don't think we can apply the "true queen" aspect here directly to Dany in the same way we can apply it to Dalla or other queens who have a king figure. That said I do think Dany is worth looking at especially since we're almost at a DwD which is a pretty explicit Jon/Dany parallel throughout.

Slynt essentially shows up to Castle Black as a conqueror and we see his use of power in his dealing with Jon. Stannis also arrives as a conqueror relative to the Wildlings and we'll see his use of power with the peace he offers them. All of our Iron Throne occupants are conquerors or have a conquering Hand or regent. Each does something with the power obtained through conquest. Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, Tywin, Randyll Tarly in Maidenpool, Roose,at Harrenhal and later in the North, and others all offer contrast in terms of what conquerors do with power. Somewhat central to all of these conquering figures is the theme of justice-- hell Slynt is only here because Tyrion swore he'd do "justice" as Hand. Jon is in contrast to the conqueror theme because his order is one that exists strictly to defend.

One thing that's bothering me about Mance's "terms" is the lack of a stronger appeal to the common foe. That is, Mance uses his reluctance to blow the horn to underscore the fact that the he really doesn't want the Wall to fall since he's looking for the same protection from the Others the Watch is supposed to provide for the realm. This and the fact that Mance admits he's previously tried to take a stand against them is some serious common ground with the purposes of the Watch. In addition to this, we'll find out in DwD that Mance is a spring of good intel about the Others and has experience to this end.

Now, why doesn't Mance appeal to that usefulness here? And why not offer to truly make common cause? He talks about hiding behind the Wall, and appeals to the fact that he knows the Watch is terribly depleted, but why doesn't he offer to augment the Watch's forces and give intel, being as how they are fighting the same enemy? I realize there's a line between appearing to be a threat to the Watch, and proving that he's not coming to conquer Mance is trying to walk, but I think an appeal to cooperation in the real battle might be a good thing to sell here.

I think Mance doesn't feel the need to concede that he'll follow the laws of Kings Landing or Winterfell because the eagle has spied out the opposition. His victory is assured and it isn't a concession he really needs to make. I think he's serious about the Free Folk making their own laws. Pragmatically if he's going to live south of the Wall he has to do something to avoid open war with the Northern lords, but I suspect he'd discuss that with someone with an army and not the gatekeeper who is powerless to stop him. I don't read this as Mance stating his future outlook once through the Wall, just that he's not willing to kneel to the cripples as a toll payment. His admitting that he's not coming south like his predecessors to raid or conquer puts the common cause on the table, but making common cause is something he'd have to do with Winterfell or the Northern lords and not really the Lord Commander-less Watch.

Worth remembering here is Bran's chapter when Osha first appears. There the discussion is that Mance intends to fight the dead. So back in GoT or just before Mance apparently had not planned to come south for Winter. The idea didn't seem to be in his head at all when he snuck into Robert's Winterfell feast. So over the course of GoT he must have lost a number of battles and his journey to the Frostfangs to dig for the horn would seem to have marked the turning point in his plans.

Hello, I've followed this thread for a while and I have to say it's really awesome! All this observations, really interesting stuff!

I've always found this line rather telling:

Jon thinks about Ygritte here. In the beginning, Jon seems to not really respect women as a threat. Here he clearly thinks of Ygritte as a warrior, even applies westerosi values of being a hero to her. She died in battle, she died well. On one hand he maybe tries to feel better about it, thinking that she would have wanted to die this way, on the other in acknowledging Ygritte as a warrior he also shows her great respect.

Welcome aboard!

I think Jon's attitude toward women as fighters is more born of a sense of chivalry than threat perception. He does have a sword made for Arya and later he'll readily lower the age for female volunteers. Overall I think Jon's upbringing emphasized protection as a duty. Sansa's expectations of what a "true knight" should do would be very much in line with what Jon (and Robb and Bran)would have been brought up to expect of himself. We'll get a bit of some back and forth with this in Dance. He puts all the spearwives in their own fort, but he's content to let them castrate a NW member before they leave instead of trying to place guards on the guards to protect them. He's willing to treat women like warriors but still makes Tormund swap the hostages based on Dany Flint.

Ygritte said they should have stayed in the cave too. There's a very strong identification between the two especially with Jon envying her death as he thinks he's about to face his own. There's also Jon's conversation with Benjen at the feast about wanting to be like the Young Dragon who was another flame who burned out quickly. Robb becomes the Young Wolf and lives out that quick flamed fate too. In a lot of ways Lyanna chose the quick flamed path as well. Overall it strikes me as another indication of Jon embracing the "Stark" identity as he seems to take Aemon's "ice preserves" path rather than the fire consumes one.

Hi All!

First post here, so be gentle :kiss:

On reading this chapter something struck out at me that I thought that I would throw out there. in this chapter we get Dalla's insightful remark on sorcery:

Once I came upon this my mind recalled this passage way back in Jon X in ACOK

I can't shake the feeling that these two are connected together.

Obsidian, as we find out, possesses some magic like qualities in the sense it is able to kill the ice-made-flesh others where man forged steel fails. Jon literally, albeit on a smaller scale, creates a workable hilt for the dagger out of simple materials in order to make it useful/serviceable for his needs, without making such a hilt he would cause himself injury, break the dagger or both. Also interesting to note is that Jon shares his improvised boon - a "newly hilted" dagger - to Grenn, which later saves his life (this incident with puddles)

Perhaps this second passage is subtle foreshadowing that Jon will find a way to fashion a metaphorical "hilt" for a sorcery-based weapon that can be used and shared with allies to fight against the long night :dunno: While this "hilt" may be rough around the edges or "Ugly" in Jon's words, it would serve its purposes.

It may be reaching, but I though it was an interesting connection :blush:

A warm welcome to you as well.

Very nice catch with the hilt construction. I like it.

[Lummel]

...Jon thinks about Ygritte here. In the beginning, Jon seems to not really respect women as a threat. Here he clearly thinks of Ygritte as a warrior, even applies westerosi values of being a hero to her. She died in battle, she died well. On one hand he maybe tries to feel better about it, thinking that she would have wanted to die this way, on the other in acknowledging Ygritte as a warrior he also shows her great respect.

Welcome! I suppose he's accepting her as she saw herself - a spearwife, rather than imposing an identity on her based on southern social role models. There's a certain matter of factness about Jon, he's able to accept things - I'm thinking of Tyrion's description of the night's watch in Tyrion II AGOT here - even if they conflict with his own ideals, if they seem to be correct and true.

...On reading this chapter something struck out at me that I thought that I would throw out there. in this chapter we get Dalla's insightful remark on sorcery:..

Perhaps this second passage is subtle foreshadowing that Jon will find a way to fashion a metaphorical "hilt" for a sorcery-based weapon that can be used and shared with allies to fight against the long night :dunno: While this "hilt" may be rough around the edges or "Ugly" in Jon's words, it would serve its purposes...

Welcome! Interesting observation. I wonder, that idea of making something serviceable feels significant, like Sam eating the half of the onion that isn't rotten.

I know a lot of people cite the Stannis! moment as a big moment. But I always read it as really "Meh" based on Jon's reaction.

He's exhausted. Death of Qhorin, turncloak, death of Ygritte, day and night fighting on the Wall, imprisoned in an ice cell, dumped over the Wall to assassinate the Mance...No wonder he is less than excited. This I think is key for the future Jon chapters, he's been through an awful lot that he has to cope with on his own. Bereavement, treachery, conflicted identities.

...What stood out most to me rereading the chapter was the idea of a "true king." That seems to be the undertone of the chapter on a number of levels. Jon even asks Mance if he is a true king and I think Mance's reaction is telling. But prior to asking Jon reflects on letting the Wildlings through...

...This is a rejection of the trappings of power, the hereditary and class system, etc. It is the absolute antithesis of all things Kings Landing. This is followed by what Mance is and how he became king. In short Mance became king by being a conqueror:

As for the three qualities Mance chooses to ascribe to himself that other kings "delegate" to others he says, "I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist." Being one's own champion strikes me as a facet of wielding the sword in the First Men tradition of justice. Being a fool reminds me of the Fisher King along with a myriad of other "fool" references. Being a harpist recalls the lessons of history, the power of songs, the victor writing the history, as well as the title of our series.

Mance fails in the end, but I don't think he is a negative model for a "true king" even if imperfect. Also worth noting is the idea of a "true queen" which also comes up just before the true king discussion...

Yes, I think that true king business is very important. It reminds me of the 'rabbit ears' discussion in ADWD. There are the trappings of power and its realities. However with Mance, my sense of his answers is that it is all about the fighting. He can defeat rivals and he can lead the people against enemies. But if he can plant trees ('a dragon plants no trees' or something like it is the Daenerys line), or even create the conditions in which trees can be planted is open for debate.

My take on the Fool was more the shakespeare tradition, speaking truth to power, I don't see the Fisher King there, he's always a king and not a fool surly? But own harper - his own propagandist. His own champion...It is a lot of roles, a lot of hats for one person to wear which again reminds me of Daenerys in ADWD and to a lesser extent of future Jon trying to do nearly everything themselves. It has a primitive feel about it. This is a person inventing their leadership role about them and having to do nearly everything. The rabbits' ears of anointing with holy oils etc etc are a way of trying to separate off the parts and buttress the individual. Here though is just the naked person, unadorned.

Osha and Orell, good points!

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Tormund makes a statement about Ygritte that might have some deeper implications: “Well, the hottest fires burn out quickest.” I think this might be apropos to Dany.

A further thought on this line. After we examine how this might apply to Dany, we should also keep it in mind with regards to Stannis, Mel , Thoros, and the entire Red Lot. Stannis in particular seems as if he's being consumed from the inside by fire. (Mel could do an infomercial for the Red God Weight Loss System.) Thoros meets this description also. Does this mean they won't last?

[Lummel]

A further thought on this line. After we examine how this might apply to Dany, we should also keep it in mind with regards to Stannis, Mel , Thoros, and the entire Red Lot. Stannis in particular seems as if he's being consumed from the inside by fire. (Mel could do an infomercial for the Red God Weight Loss System.) Thoros meets this description also. Does this mean they won't last?

Fire consumes but ice preserves...

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Perhaps this second passage is subtle foreshadowing that Jon will find a way to fashion a metaphorical "hilt" for a sorcery-based weapon that can be used and shared with allies to fight against the long night :dunno: While this "hilt" may be rough around the edges or "Ugly" in Jon's words, it would serve its purposes.

It may be reaching, but I though it was an interesting connection :blush:

Jon the Hilt-maker. Great catch! Jon, from the Ice-connected North, not only wields fire to protect his people (burning the wight to save LC Mormont), he also finds ways for his allies to wield "frozen fire". Jon is the Intermediary, linking NW and Wilding, linking North and South, linking Ice and Fire.

[Queen Alienor]

Welcome aboard!

I think Jon's attitude toward women as fighters is more born of a sense of chivalry than threat perception. He does have a sword made for Arya and later he'll readily lower the age for female volunteers. Overall I think Jon's upbringing emphasized protection as a duty. Sansa's expectations of what a "true knight" should do would be very much in line with what Jon (and Robb and Bran)would have been brought up to expect of himself. We'll get a bit of some back and forth with this in Dance. He puts all the spearwives in their own fort, but he's content to let them castrate a NW member before they leave instead of trying to place guards on the guards to protect them. He's willing to treat women like warriors but still makes Tormund swap the hostages based on Dany Flint.

Ygritte said they should have stayed in the cave too. There's a very strong identification between the two especially with Jon envying her death as he thinks he's about to face his own. There's also Jon's conversation with Benjen at the feast about wanting to be like the Young Dragon who was another flame who burned out quickly. Robb becomes the Young Wolf and lives out that quick flamed fate too. In a lot of ways Lyanna chose the quick flamed path as well. Overall it strikes me as another indication of Jon embracing the "Stark" identity as he seems to take Aemon's "ice preserves" path rather than the fire consumes one.

Thanks for the welcome!

Yeah you're right. I don't know, that line just kind of struck me because he is iirc the only male POV character that accepts women as warriors.

Jon very much wants to be remembered as a worthy son of Eddard Stark, IMO. Later, in Dance, he doesn't care about that so much anymore, but here he wants to go down as hero. Of course, in that situation he only has the choice between two deaths, but in his line of thinking there is still the element of "How will I be remembered?" and "What would Father do?". I think Jon very much idolizes his father to the point where he thinks that Ned always makes the honorable decision while we know that for example Ned rather "confessed" than endangering his daughters. (I guess you could make a case of that being the honorabe choice, but you get my point.)

Later in Dance when Jon does what he thinks he has to do he strikes me as embaracing his Stark identity more than at this point, but that's just my opinion.

Welcome! I suppose he's accepting her as she saw herself - a spearwife, rather than imposing an identity on her based on southern social role models. There's a certain matter of factness about Jon, he's able to accept things - I'm thinking of Tyrion's description of the night's watch in Tyrion II AGOT here - even if they conflict with his own ideals, if they seem to be correct and true.

Thanks! I agree.

[Ragnorak]

My take on the Fool was more the shakespeare tradition, speaking truth to power, I don't see the Fisher King there, he's always a king and not a fool surly? But own harper - his own propagandist. His own champion...It is a lot of roles, a lot of hats for one person to wear which again reminds me of Daenerys in ADWD and to a lesser extent of future Jon trying to do nearly everything themselves. It has a primitive feel about it. This is a person inventing their leadership role about them and having to do nearly everything. The rabbits' ears of anointing with holy oils etc etc are a way of trying to separate off the parts and buttress the individual. Here though is just the naked person, unadorned.

Osha and Orell, good points!

I don't disagree with the Shakespearean Fool part at all. The Fisher King thought was born of the quote I forgot to include :dunce: .

“You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends?

Looking at the conflicts that have afflicted Westeros like a blight on the land, it isn't so much beating your enemies as a conqueror that heals the land but rather the way in which friends are ruled. There's a bit of the self-deprecating fool in Mance, Robert, even Doran that contributes to a peace despite other flaws. It is the type of thing that is completely lacking in a Tywin-like character where force or coercion is always needed.

That quote is also interesting because it implies that a true king has friends. Later Jon will think that as Lord Commander he has no friends. I suspect this is wrong and that Sam, Leathers, Satin, Edd, and others are still his friends though the rules have changed with his rank. If the implication here is that a true king rules "friends" that offers another perspective to look at those upcoming dynamics.

Thanks for the welcome!

Yeah you're right. I don't know, that line just kind of struck me because he is iirc the only male POV character that accepts women as warriors.

Jon very much wants to be remembered as a worthy son of Eddard Stark, IMO. Later, in Dance, he doesn't care about that so much anymore, but here he wants to go down as hero. Of course, in that situation he only has the choice between two deaths, but in his line of thinking there is still the element of "How will I be remembered?" and "What would Father do?". I think Jon very much idolizes his father to the point where he thinks that Ned always makes the honorable decision while we know that for example Ned rather "confessed" than endangering his daughters. (I guess you could make a case of that being the honorabe choice, but you get my point.)

Later in Dance when Jon does what he thinks he has to do he strikes me as embaracing his Stark identity more than at this point, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks! I agree.

I think you're mostly right about the standing out in accepting women as warriors. Asha is by her own men but we get the sense that was earned over many years and most abnormal among those who won't sow. The Mormont women seem to be perfectly accepted by the Northmen but no one speaks about it much one way or the other. Not sure about Dorne. The Sand Snakes are certainly accepted but is that because of a more universal women warrior attitude or that they're Oberyn's and no one argues with Oberyn? I'd expect Dorne to be far more open in general but I can't think of a Dornish take on female warriors outside of the Sand Snakes and the ancient Nymeria. Jon definitely stands out far more than any other because he's got numerous spearwives and Axell Florent on the heels of a book with Brienne's POV that emphasizes the Southron Fool view on female warriors..

Very much agree with Jon as the most Ned-like candidate. The irony is that Ned was plagued with doubts in about the exact same way Jon is despite Jon's perception of Ned as such a stalwart man of honor who always knew.

[Lummel]

...Jon very much wants to be remembered as a worthy son of Eddard Stark, IMO. Later, in Dance, he doesn't care about that so much anymore, but here he wants to go down as hero. Of course, in that situation he only has the choice between two deaths, but in his line of thinking there is still the element of "How will I be remembered?" and "What would Father do?". I think Jon very much idolizes his father to the point where he thinks that Ned always makes the honorable decision while we know that for example Ned rather "confessed" than endangering his daughters. (I guess you could make a case of that being the honorabe choice, but you get my point.)...

history, memory, false idealisation of real people are our stock in trade in these reread threads it seems :)

Jon wants terribly to be like The Ned, but doesn't really appreciate how similar they already are. A little tragedy, a little irony. Bittersweet mayhaps?

...Looking at the conflicts that have afflicted Westeros like a blight on the land, it isn't so much beating your enemies as a conqueror that heals the land but rather the way in which friends are ruled. There's a bit of the self-deprecating fool in Mance, Robert, even Doran that contributes to a peace despite other flaws. It is the type of thing that is completely lacking in a Tywin-like character where force or coercion is always needed.

That quote is also interesting because it implies that a true king has friends. Later Jon will think that as Lord Commander he has no friends. I suspect this is wrong and that Sam, Leathers, Satin, Edd, and others are still his friends though the rules have changed with his rank. If the implication here is that a true king rules "friends" that offers another perspective to look at those upcoming dynamics...

Very much agree with Jon as the most Ned-like candidate. The irony is that Ned was plagued with doubts in about the exact same way Jon is despite Jon's perception of Ned as such a stalwart man of honor who always knew.

You know I think that is the first linking of friendship to kingship that I can remember. It really is a very interesting point. All our rulers seems to be quite isolated figures, maybe this is the (pretty obvious on reflection) common weakness that they all share?

I think of Bob who calls Ned his friend, but then largely ignores him and does what he would generally do without him. Cersei and friend is a combination like slug and salt. Daenernys - well maybe Missandei though perhaps she's more a younger sister type figure. Joffrey's friend was his fancy crossbow (did he ever manage to bag a hare?) Tommen has some kittens. Stannis. Renly has his lover, but a lover is not a friend. Socially they are all seem to me to be fairly isolated figures.