The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[Isildur's Mane]

Great write ups guys.

I always liked Zei for some reason. Even though she just appears then disappears. I always had the feeling that she was there to tempt Jon, just after Ygritte dies and just after he has recommitted himself to the watch. But Jon rejects it "I'm done with kisses" (or something along those lines).

And I, too, related her to Tyrion. A dwarf in Kings Landing chokes his lover/whore to death and then kills his father with a cross-bow, but then up at the wall, you have a whore killing wildlings with a cross-bow, defending the realm. It's not much, but the two always remind me of each other.

I always liked this chapter. Jon seems to just naturally fall into command, even if he doesn't think he deserves it, he knows it's only temporary... Until the end of the chapter when Noye dies and maester Aemon says he has to lead.

I find it odd, that even though Jon has spent months(?) with the wildlings he first calls Donal Noye "My lord" when Noye give Jon the command, even though he is a blacksmith, and the Mag the Mighty king, even though, back at the start of ASoS, Tormund said that the giants have no king but "You can kneel to that one if you like" (Or something like that).

@Ibbison from Ibben: In regard to Good Queen Alysanne and having ulterior motives - I like that idea and I definitely think she could be one of the Targs that gets visions.

History makes her out to be good and virtuous, and I'm not saying she wasn't, I just always thought (and especially after reading TPatQ) that there could be more to her. That history has sort of exaggerated her more...

Sorry, I ramble when I'm tired and I'm not sure where I'm going with this, other than to say: I like your idea.

That's all I have for now, Merry Christmas all.

[SeanF]

Good point about Stannis' forces not being accosted, but I suspect that there is sinister reason why Val had no trouble from White walkers or wights rather than that the wildlings have some means of defence. But we'll see.

Are you suggesting she's an Other, or an agent of theirs?

[Maia]

I flicked back through Tyrion II, Jon I and Jon II AGOT and didn't spot any mention of Jon becoming Lord Commander, the nearest was Robb saying that the next time he saw Jon he'd be all in black and Jon telling Uncle Benjen that he wanted to serve in the nights watch. I mean it is true that Jon could and does rise high in the nights watch, have you got a reference that shows that is what he wanted to do though?

Ask and ye shall receive ;):

"Tell Robb, that I am going to command the Night's Watch and keep him safe" Tyrion II AGOT, their last dialog atop the Wall.

That was very much a long-term goal for Jon, though and when the moment to take command actually came, much sooner than he expected it, he felt unready. But don't most people in such circumstances?

I don't think we're supposed to mention later chapter/books but it was hard not to notice 2 mentions very close to each other with praise for Bowen Marsh. 1. well supplied 2. restored to working order.

I keep telling people that Marsh and Yarwick were quite competent in their own departments, they just weren't good leaders, military minds or open to drastic innovation.

Lummel,

Re: Jon's subsequent thoughts how they should have had 20 trebuchets, that's a bit unfair, IMHO, since Marsh had very limited time and resources to work with. Re: turn-tables, not sure whether making ones that would remain mobile in the cold is a significant engineering problem at this level of technology. My gut says yes, though. Putting them on sleds would complicate the construction, too.

Frankly surprised on re-read that when the wildings herald their coming with drums etc. he thinks of them in terms of "breaking the Wall, take land, steal daughters". It seems like his journey south with Ygrette would have tempered this train of thought from him. I will be on lookout in future for when he fully realizes wildings are human beings.

But they absolutely intended to do that too! Just because the wildlings had a sympathetic existential reason to attack the North _this_ time, doesn't mean that they were ready for any compromises before they were badly beaten down.

During the Great Migrations IRL, nations also always had compelling reasons to go wandering, but it doesn't mean that they didn't try to grab juicy loot or choice lands when they came across them. They were even prepared to go much farther than they needed, if they heard about particularly tempting areas, such as Italy, etc.

And let's be frank - the North couldn't have comfortably absorbed and provided for 100+ extra thousands people arriving out of nowhere on the eve of a fierce winter. In fact, the North itself is woefully under-supplied with food stores, etc. due to war and political upheaval.

The wildlings don't have any significant winter stores with them either - what they had has been consumed during the march. Yes, there may be game and other edible stuff in the Gifts - but not enough to quickly lay winter stores that have to last several years for so many people! They had to be counting on robbing the food from the northeners.

He doesn't have the control over his forces that a normal army commander has. He's herding cats. If he wants the wildings to jump, he can't yell, "Jump!" and expect them to ask, "How high?" He has to prod, cajole, and persuade. He has to sings songs about how fun it is to jump, and how all the girls will smile at those who jump the highest. Just because the wildings attacked the Wall at the CB gate doesn't mean that Mance thought it was a good idea.

Very true, but if I was a wildling, I'd be much more amenable to taking my chances at scaling the Wall while NW was distracted, than to participating in a frontal attack on a small, winding tunnel under a huge Wall, both fiercely defended!

I understand why Mance didn't send more than one raiding party to begin with - too much risk of discovery and putting NW on alert. But once the battle was joined and all men were pulled back from patrols, etc?

Another party like Stygg's could have easily won their way to the gate under the cover of darkness, made short work of the few defenders on the ground and let the wildlings in. Yes, the black brothers could have taken pot-shuts from the top of the Wall, but it wouldn't have stopped anything.

Not sure why Mance didn't try something like that, before proceeding to the horn bluff.

Nor does it make sense to me that Mance would have wanted to get a substantial number of his warriors killed for the reasons of internal politics - he knew that he'd need them to deal with the northeners, who would have tried to deal with the wildling invasion at some point.

Are you suggesting she's an Other, or an agent of theirs?

Sounds that way to me! I can't wait to read that theory when we come to the relevant chapters, Lummel! For the record, I do think that some of the wildlings in Mance's force are/were working with the Others and that they are going to/did smuggle an Other or 3 through the Wall. But Val... I dunno. She is depicted too sympathetically for that, IMHO. But let's not get too far ahead of the action!

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Ask and ye shall receive ;):

"Tell Robb, that I am going to command the Night's Watch and keep him safe" Tyrion II AGOT, their last dialog atop the Wall.

That was very much a long-term goal for Jon, though and when the moment to take command actually came, much sooner than he expected it, he felt unready. But don't most people in such circumstances?

I'm not buying it, you have one instance of Jon joking around at a time when it would be inappropriate to say i'm going to be first ranger considering they next talk about how Benjen should be back already. Even after Jon knows he's being groomed he thinks thoughts like I was a ranger for one day at least, they can't take that away.

[Julian Rayne]

BTW, just how high can you shoot an arrow with a longbow?

We can do some envelope math and get an upper limit.

AFAIK, the heaviest draw of an English longbow is around 175 pounds or about 80 kg. Let's be generous and say the Wildlings had wood superior to yew and built bows with a draw of 100 kg.

Estimating from my own arm length, the draw would be about a meter. Let's be generous and say the Wildlings drew their bows two meters. That would give the arrow about 200 joules of energy.

If the mass of the arrow was 100 grams, it could go straight up to a height of 200 meters, or about 700 feet. Of course, it would be completely depleted of its kinetic energy at that height.

[Lummel]

Well, ladies, gentlemen and smallfolk, 'tis time to wish you all a merry Sevenmass! May your nightfires burn brightly and the wind of the old gods be a gentle lullaby in your ears!

Thank you to all you who have been posting for making this long conversation both possible and worthwhile :thumbsup:

Those of you who have been lurking and keeping your thoughts to yourselves - we'll be having words later, Grrrggghhh.

[-Winterfellian-]

Sorry I missed so much interesting discussions. I was unfortunately stuck with password issues.

Ask and ye shall receive ;):

"Tell Robb, that I am going to command the Night's Watch and keep him safe" Tyrion II AGOT, their last dialog atop the Wall.

That was very much a long-term goal for Jon, though and when the moment to take command actually came, much sooner than he expected it, he felt unready. But don't most people in such circumstances?

I am not sure I buy this as proof of Jon's "long term" ambitions. I have always read the passage above as his way to send his regards in a teasing way to Robb. I think Jon did not expect to become LC, no more than he expected Robb to take up needlework with the girls. When I think of the Jon that first went to the Wall I think of a boy whose sense of ambition was mixed with his innocence of the world and the expectations of adventure he carried with him to the Wall, not someone with aspirations to raise through the ranks.

Yes, Jon knew that there was a possibility of advancement in the NW. But I think we ought to ask what advancement meant to Jon at this stage. And I do not think LC was it. This possibility first crossed his mind after Sam knocked some sense into him, following his tantrum at being named the Old Bear's steward. At this stage Jon was still a boy for whom Daeron I was a fantasized hero, indicating that for him ambitions and adventure went hand in hand, hence why he was so captivated with the Rangers. In other words, power is not the main drive for his ambition at this stage, but adventure. For me the height of Jon's ambitions at this stage was to become head ranger as his uncle.

Looking back I always saw the way he first describes the three orders very telling. Whereas the builders' role is described very matter of factly and the stewards are not even mentioned, Jon refers to the rangers as:

The true fighting force of the NW. It was them who dared ride beyond the Wall, sweeping through the haunted forest and the icy mountain heights west of the Shadow Tower, fighting wildings, giants and monstruous snow bears.

To me Jon's ambition was to play the hero doing all the above, which makes the contrast with his later posture all the more stronger, when instead of fighting wildings and giants he befriends and tries to allied with them. Part of Jon's journey is about shedding off all these preconceived notions of heroism or rather learn to see past them enough to realize that, while Daeron I might make for a dashing figure in a song, a Daeron II might make for a better leader in terms of the consequences his actions had on his subjects, even if in his heart of hearts he still yearns for the ranger dream.

About Bowen Marsh being competent... :dunno: I say is hit and miss most of the times. The problem with him is not necessarily his competence but the notions and train of thought that precedes his actions This chapter is a perfect example. While he did took measures to ensure the Watch a better fighting change againts a wilding threat he left in charge a man so senile that he nearly drowned in his own soup once! All because he was the last knight in the castle. This to me is just as dumb as giving the command of an army to a toddler.

In his blindness he left the feeblest of the cripples in charge because he had the right blood or upbringing or whatever, failing to realize that the least crippled (Donall Noye) was actually the better man for the job. Sadly, despite apparently being competent enough to eat soup without risking his life Donal did not meet Marsh's standards.

Last but not least, I wish you all a Merry Christmas!!

[Ibbison from Ibben]

We can do some envelope math and get an upper limit.

AFAIK, the heaviest draw of an English longbow is around 175 pounds or about 80 kg. Let's be generous and say the Wildlings had wood superior to yew and built bows with a draw of 100 kg.

Estimating from my own arm length, the draw would be about a meter. Let's be generous and say the Wildlings drew their bows two meters. That would give the arrow about 200 joules of energy.

If the mass of the arrow was 100 grams, it could go straight up to a height of 200 meters, or about 700 feet. Of course, it would be completely depleted of its kinetic energy at that height.

Thanks much for the data!

[Maia]

Merry Christmas, everybody!

When I think of the Jon that first went to the Wall I think of a boy whose sense of ambition was mixed with his innocence of the world and the expectations of adventure he carried with him to the Wall, not someone with aspirations to raise through the ranks.

I am not really sure why there is such resistance to the idea that one of the reasons for Jon asking to join NW was ambition and desire to make a name for himself.

Yes, he wanted to have adventures too, but IIRC the notion that a bastard can rise high in NW was also attractive to him. By the time he become friends with other boys and black brothers, he was enjoying the companionship of equals - for the first time in his life! so much that the thought of advancement didn't reoccur.

I don't see how eventually becoming LC would be contradictory to Jon's desire to be a ranger. I bet that most LCs did come from the rangers, that Benjen would have been elected if he was alive/made it back in time and that LC's stewards who were groomed for command also got lengthy stints of ranging at some point, seeing how as officers they'd need to know what is what and earn some reputation.

At this stage Jon was still a boy for whom Daeron I was a fantasized hero, indicating that for him ambitions and adventure went hand in hand, hence why he was so captivated with the Rangers. In other words, power is not the main drive for his ambition at this stage, but adventure.

But then why Daeron I? If all you want is adventure, why pick a warrior king who was the supreme commander of his own army as your hero and not a legendary wandering knight? IMHO, Jon's choice of Daeron reveals his ambition - not a great fighter or a great traveler, but a military leader, a person in charge. YMMV.

It is a fantasy trope that all ambition is evil and that all the best heroes/leaders are reluctant ones, the more annoyingly and repetitively reluctant the better ;). I disagree and WoT series, with it's triple dosage of such made me allergic to the concept.

Part of Jon's journey is about shedding off all these preconceived notions of heroism or rather learn to see past them enough to realize that, while Daeron I might make for a dashing figure in a song, a Daeron II might make for a better leader in terms of the consequences his actions had on his subjects, even if in his heart of hearts he still yearns for the ranger dream.

True, though it has to be noted that the way Daeron II was perceived by his contemporaries did hurt him too and contributed to the Blackfyre Rebellion. We don't know enough to judge whether he could have mitigated this negative PR and what other fateful mistakes he may have made.

In his blindness he left the feeblest of the cripples in charge because he had the right blood or upbringing or whatever, failing to realize that the least crippled (Donall Noye) was actually the better man for the job. Sadly, despite apparently being competent enough to eat soup without risking his life Donal did not meet Marsh's standards.

Well, yea... My, admittedly feeble, defense would be that it is relatively normal in Westeros to have an unsuitable person nominally in charge because of their social positions, while everybody knows that other, more competent people are really doing the work. Could this have been Marsh's train of thought? Maybe? ;).

[-Winterfellian-]

Merry Christmas, everybody!

I am not really sure why there is such resistance to the idea that one of the reasons for Jon asking to join NW was ambition and desire to make a name for himself.

Yes, he wanted to have adventures too, but IIRC the notion that a bastard can rise high in NW was also attractive to him. By the time he become friends with other boys and black brothers, he was enjoying the companionship of equals - for the first time in his life! so much that the thought of advancement didn't reoccur.

I don't see how eventually becoming LC would be contradictory to Jon's desire to be a ranger. I bet that most LCs did come from the rangers, that Benjen would have been elected if he was alive/made it back in time and that LC's stewards who were groomed for command also got lengthy stints of ranging at some point, seeing how as officers they'd need to know what is what and earn some reputation.

Is not really resistance but more that for me Jon's dreams of advancement were not merely product of ambition, but born our of a desire to prove that he could be as good a son to Ned as Robb. It wasn't merely a desire for power, just like his desire for WF is not fueled by the power being Warden of the North will grant him, but by a desire to be deemed worthy in the eyes of the Father. I read this not merely as ambition but as a desire for acceptance, hence why when surrounded by equals this dreams of advancement did not reoccur or become less apparent.

About the rangers, I did not mean to say that the Ranger path is not conductive to LC, but that Jon wanted the position as ranger for itself not as a stepping stone in the road to become LC. He wanted it for the chance of adventure and glamour being a ranger offered. If it had been just to carved his way into LC, why didn't he never even stopped to consider the stewards as a choice, where his tutelage under Maester Luwin would have grant him even a better edge over the rest of the boys?

But then why Daeron I? If all you want is adventure, why pick a warrior king who was the supreme commander of his own army as your hero and not a legendary wandering knight? IMHO, Jon's choice of Daeron reveals his ambition - not a great fighter or a great traveler, but a military leader, a person in charge. YMMV.

It is a fantasy trope that all ambition is evil and that all the best heroes/leaders are reluctant ones, the more annoyingly and repetitively reluctant the better ;). I disagree and WoT series, with it's triple dosage of such made me allergic to the concept.

Why Daeron? Well, kings do tend to make for a more dashing figure in stories than a mere hedge knight :laugh:

I see your point though, but Daeron was not only a military leader or a king, but I imagined in Jon's mind he was also a conqueror at a extremely young age, and there laid the appeal. Not to mention that Daeron's book has been described as rather selfserving by more than one character so we can really know how well or even heroic he represent himself in the book.

Never read the WOT series, so can't really speak about them, but I am not arguing that Jon displays zero ambition.Afterall, the NW appealed to him because it was a place where he could carve a place for himself, he did aspire to become head ranger at one point and was appealed by the possibility of being groomed to command. However, given his set of mind at that time I imagined he deemed the LC job as too office like in comparison to the more dashing ranger type.

Well, yea... My, admittedly feeble, defense would be that it is relatively normal in Westeros to have an unsuitable person nominally in charge because of their social positions, while everybody knows that other, more competent people are really doing the work. Could this have been Marsh's train of thought? Maybe? ;).

Oh come on, a man senile enough to be be a risk to his own life when eating soup is too much, even by Wesyerosi standards ;)

[Lummel]

About Bowen Marsh and the trebuchets, however I look at it the state of the trebuchets seems to me to be typical of the watch as a whole and really to sum it up and condemn it as not fit for purpose.

If we assume that Bowen Marsh had those two trebuchets repaired recently when he heard the bad news then ok that speaks well of his and the people at Castle Black's ability to get two trebuchets repaired and in working order quickly. But then we have to ask - why weren't they kept in working order as a matter of course? This is an important part of the Wall's defence.

Further then we have to wonder what kind of people never thought that it might be useful to shift the firing angle of the trebuchets rather than just having them in a fixed position, or indeed that more than two might be useful - the sentence was ambiguous, it seemed to me that it could mean either that Marsh had the only two trebuchets repaired or that of all the trebuchets above the gate only two of them were repaired, but this could be a British English/American English difference. Perhaps US readers don't find it ambiguous?

The gate is a weak point in the Wall. The trebuchets act to defend the gate from ground attack. Therefore they are an important part of the defence. That only two of them are in working order really condemns the Watch in my opinion, it is as bad as sending out rangers without horses or without weapons. It gets to the basic purpose of the Watch as understood by the Watchmen at this time - to defend the North.

I'm not sure that would take what Jon said to Tyrion as great evidence for his personal ambition because it seems to me to be in the context of fairly jokey statement:

"Tell Robb that I'm going to command the Night's Watch and keep him safe, so he might as well take up needlework with the girls and have Mikken melt down his sword for horseshoes". I see the first half of the sentence as being as seriously meant as the second! Admittedly though Jon could have said First Ranger, or a Power Ranger, but I still see it as pretty weak as evidence of ambition. Having said that for a son of the Lord of Winterfell to become Lord Commander, even at a young age is not unreasonable - there are precedents. The idealisation of the Young Dragon, yes I think that is better evidence for Jon having an elevated sense of where he should be in the world. Perhaps it is also the typical cruel GRRM foreshadowing. The Young Dragon didn't live long and Jon's rule over the Watch was also cut short.

I'm pretty sure I posted my views on Val in Learning to Lead. For this thread we can chat about her when we get to the relevant chapters. It is not at the moment exactly an urgent issue for us to discuss! But in short lets face it late in ADWD there she is all dressed in white like a bride and that can only spell bad news for a unwed and free man ;)

One of the things I like about this chapter is at the end even as Jon is talking about giving up command to that mysterious someone better suited he is still giving orders!

[LadyEmma]

Judging Mance's intentions is very difficult for several reasons. ... Mance's actions aren't as simple as they first seem, but I don't think we are in a position at this point in the story (or even at the end of aDwD) to evaluate them properly. More importantly in a Jon reread, Jon isn't looking very deeply into Mance's motivations yet. Jon knows a bit about wilding leadership values and how Mance won his position, but he hasn't really looked past the obvious explanations to attempt to understand Mance's decisions. Jon doesn't play the Game, and isn't good at understanding those who do. Mance's later actions in aDwD will catch Jon off guard. I agree.

I'm not entirely sure but here's what I'm thinking so far. ....

Thank you for laying that all out. Your ideas make sense to me. I like that you've not taken liberties that just aren't there like so many people seem to like to do. Regarding the real sword and symbolism to Jon: if I recall, the real sword was described as dark grey almost black with red through it -- is this not the colors of House Targaryen?

Welcome Lady Emma! No qualifications or introductions neccessary :) Thank you!

Good point that he only calls out for male members of his family, despite which he does call out for Ygritte, but then at this point I suppose he doesn't think that Sansa and Arya are dead so maybe that's why? I like your idea about calling out for those he thinks are dead; I was mostly having trouble with the lack of Robb in this dream and that explains it cleanly. I was seeing the call for for Ygritte as different as that happens after it got darker.

The wind...something like the force of destiny maybe, something about the power that transcends the world we percieve through our senses? I like that and also Ibbison's statement of wind literally being words.

Bowen Marsh .... I've really enjoyed your take on Marsh's efforts and lack thereof. It does show a physical manifestation of the deterioration of the NW besides how we are shown that concept through just the lower quality of people joining/manning the Wall.

...the hero's journey.... therefore one is going to find patterns whether intended by the author or not and (ii) who says that Jon is the hero? Yes, you do find patterns and that is what Joseph Campbell found and laid out in his book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Here is a tidy summation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth Basically, I see it as a tool. I'm not advocating that Jon is the only hero in this story or even that he is a hero at all -- it is just a way to look at a character and likewise compare and contrast with other characters.

About other fantasy books, ... but I suppose he's the same man with the same ideas knocking around in his head. Thank you that helps me.

The Anti-war idea is an interestng one. iirc we discussed that in the Tyrion reread too. I'll have to go check that out. ... Maybe we see that in the whole wildling theme. The watch has become fixated on fighting wildlings in heroic combat rather than defending the realms of men from the white walkers? Yeah, I think somewhere along the line the NW got distracted.

About dreams... something from the subconscious and something external that clearly doesn't come from the character. The crypt dreams could easily be either... Right on. Additionally, they can be both at the same time, which I think this dream is.

I am still crackpotting that Wall height is expressed in CoTF measurement and their feet are much smaller. :laugh:

I like that crackpot! :))

... I suppose it makes sense that his mind goes immediately to Bran this time; after putting together that this was Summer and that the wolf is therefore nearby, he'd expect the next grey wolf he sees to be Bran's, as it's foremost in his mind. I thought of this too. I guess I was just trying to bring together that he doesn't call out for Robb nor think of Robb's wolf -- I made too much of it.

But I still wonder if the fact that Jon names the direwolf as Bran's might be a hint toward Bran's being involved in that eventual "descent into the underworld" portion, which I'd assume will involve a parentage discussion. I think it may. Although, I think this hint is almost too subtle.

Maia, on 24 Dec 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

But they absolutely intended to do that too! Just because the wildlings had a sympathetic existential reason to attack the North _this_ time, doesn't mean that they were ready for any compromises before they were badly beaten down.
During the Great Migrations IRL, nations also always had compelling reasons to go wandering, but it doesn't mean that they didn't try to grab juicy loot or choice lands when they came across them. They were even prepared to go much farther than they needed, if they heard about particularly tempting areas, such as Italy, etc.
And let's be frank - the North couldn't have comfortably absorbed and provided for 100+ extra thousands people arriving out of nowhere on the eve of a fierce winter. In fact, the North itself is woefully under-supplied with food stores, etc. due to war and political upheaval.
The wildlings don't have any significant winter stores with them either - what they had has been consumed during the march. Yes, there may be game and other edible stuff in the Gifts - but not enough to quickly lay winter stores that have to last several years for so many people! They had to be counting on robbing the food from the northeners. -- Excellent points!

[Ragnorak]

Jon IX (SoS)

Summary

The chapter opens with the continued sounds of the battle from last chapter. Three days have passed but the events have been a repetitive monotony making it essentially sequential direct continuation. To break this stalemate the Wildlings have constructed a turtle-- an upside-down boat or a long hall on wheels to shelter them from the Watchmen's arrows as they try and break through the gate. In anticipation Jon had his men fill the gravel barrels with water to freeze them into makeshift boulders which successfully destroy the turtle. Jon looks at the eight remaining barrels and realizes he's running out of resources and tricks and soon will only have lives to throw against the Wildling horde.

He decides to use the reprieve to sleep and gets some dreamwine from Aemon before resting in the Kings Tower. He awakens to strangers in Nights Watch garb who take him to the Old Bear's old solar to face accusations of being a turncloak from Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt. After a long exchange Slynt proclaims that Jon deserves to be hung and is dragged off to an ice cell.

Observations

We have Jon's berserker strength. Exhausted after three straight days of battle and with his injured leg he still lifts Thorne of the damn ground with one hand. Gotta love adrenaline. Maybe there's something to that Darth Vader parallel...

We have two dreams:

“I had a dream that the king had come,” Owen said happily. “Maester Aemon sent a raven, and King Robert came with all his strength. I dreamed I saw his golden banners.”

His dreams were strange and formless, full of strange voices, shouts and cries, and the sound of a warhorn, blowing low and loud, a single deep booming note that lingered in the air.

The first is Owen's and it could actually be prophetic with the impending arrival of Stannis. Not sure what to make of Jon's. Don't recall the horn blasts from when Stannis shows so it might be that. It is fairly vague.

I thought the back and forth innovations in the battle were a nice touch. Mance uses mantlets to counter the arrows so Jon uses fire arrows and Mance then covers them in raw hides. The turtle was a nice innovation as were the frozen barrels.

Speaking of turtles the only other one I recall is in Tyrion from Dance. Anything there?

It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard.

“It was him,” cried Yandry. “The Old Man of the River.”
And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

Nothing specific comes to mind but here's Jon's meal compared to the one that sent Slynt here:

Jon had a belly full of bread, bacon, onions, and cheese

This evening they had supped on oxtail soup, summer greens tossed with pecans, grapes, red fennel, and crumbled cheese, hot crab pie, spiced squash, and quails drowned in butter. Each dish had come with its own wine.

Aemon's cane seems to imply he came on his own. Clydas is absent. Did they try and keep Aemon away or did he show up solo to avoid appearing weak? Noteworthy that he jumps in once and otherwise let's Jon answer on his own.

He saw Maester Aemon standing by the fire, his hands folded around the head of a blackthorn cane.

Rattleshirt shows up and more Ygritte thoughts too.

Plot-wise I think there's much to be made about the Stark bashing and lumping Benjen in as a traitor. Those words and these actions will color Slynt's run for office later. Thorne makes deliberate use of the word "brothers" in the last line but is hardly acting like one himself given the threat on the other side of the gate.

More old vs. new gods stuff from our drunken septon including "Father's gods" thrown out as an accusation. This may be our first real introduction to the "Southron Fool" theme we see in Dance. These guys are like theme music for Axell Florent.

Analysis

A note about the opening imagery

The first thing that struck me was the symbolism of old conflicts. The opening Day and night the axes rang reminded me of the original First Men and Children of the Forest conflict with all the assaults on wood.

he could hear the ceaseless thunk of bronze and flint and stolen steel biting into wood

Mance had sledgehammers at work as well, and long saws with teeth of bone and flint.

there came a great cracking from the haunted forest, and a sentinel tree came crashing down in a cloud of dirt and needles.

Then we have reminders of the true conflict that looms

campfires sending up smoky fingers to scratch against the pale dawn sky.

A gust of wind sent icy tendrils wending through his long brown hair.

“Lord Snow,” said Owen, shaking his shoulder, “the dawn.”

and even a bit of brother vs. brother civil war imagery with trees shielding Wildlings from the sight of crows as both are heavily associated with the old gods and our second to last greenseer Bloodraven in particular.

Noticing it gave me a sense of conflicts within conflicts or conflicts built on past conflicts which I think fits well with everything that comes with Slynt and Thorne's arrival.

Positions and Juxtapositions

There's a damn Wildling army at the gates and Slynt and Thorne decide to play Game of Crownless Thrones with the Nights Watch. This is the very plot twist that has replayed over and over. Did Thorne or Slynt actually ascend the Wall to look at the enemy? I doubt it. Regardless of the existential threat we continually see honor, duty and oaths ignored for a shot at being King of the Broken Trebuchet for a few hours. Harrenhal is probably our best metaphor but this is surely our most pathetic stakes.

Jon has made his residence in the King's Tower that he defended during the first battle. Slynt chooses to occupy Mormont's solar in a fairly clear symbolic act of assuming his place as LC even though Jon actually has command. That juxtaposition could be read as the LC role pulling Jon out of his role as King. It certainly will for a time as we know Robb named him heir so Jon is at least theoretically King in the North now. Later Jon will not take up Mormont's residence despite being duly elected to the position Slynt is trying to usurp. He will also leave the King' Tower to Stannis and instead take up the armory which is the residence of the man who first put him in command. (which as a side note makes me curious about some future parallel between Noye and Mel as Baratheon King weapon forgers.)

Slynt the illiterate man is seated where the Old Bear wrote his letters. The intention to contrast the two seems clear:

He was as broad as the Old Bear had been, and no doubt would be as bald if he lived to Mormont’s age. Half his hair was gone already, though he could not have been more than forty.

Whereas Mormont always had the raven on his shoulder, Slynt has the spear.

He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder.

“What honor is that? I do admit, you made a better bargain than Ser Jacelyn. A lordship and a castle for a spear thrust in the back, and you didn’t even need to thrust the spear.”

Tyrion's comment about not having to thrust the spear also applies here.

“Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King’s Hand. For you, a noose will serve."

Slynt didn't need to swing that sword either. The whole seen seems an intentional contrast between Mormont and this usurping man who is clearly unfit to fill his shoes. He boasts to being the Lord of Harrenhal but Tyrion stripped him of that and it was long ago awarded to Littlefinger. We have Tywin's comment that he's a butcher's son who is unfit for a seat of Kings that is what lands him at the Wall yet we see Janos making much ado about bastards and blacksmiths. The irony is drawn out in his whole demand to be called "my lord."

You will grant us our courtesies, yes.
“Yes, m’lord!”
“Yes, my lord,” Jon said.

We also have Thorne and his nicknames. Early on we get the reference to Grenn having grown into Thorne's nickname is a positive way. Jon's observation recalls the Sam conversation where Grenn notes he'd be proud of the nickname from an observation like Jon's.

It made him look as huge and shaggy as an aurochs, the mocking name that Ser Alliser Thorne had hung on him during training.

Things have changed and Thorne doesn't know it. He used to get a rise out Jon from calling him bastard and insulting his family. The tactic fails. While Jon throws the nickname's origin back in his face it has become a term of respect for Jon in Thorne's absence. Jon doesn't like to be called Lord Snow, but others do like to use the title sincerely.

We have Slynt being measured against Mormont. Slynt's accusations inherently compare them to his own past actions further emphasized by Tyrion throwing those actions in his face just before sending him here. Slynt's focus on station given his own is laughable, but also highly ironic given Jon may actually be King twice over. The station power play also stands out compared to Tyrion who specifically declined being called Lord yet manifested the power to send Slynt here. We also have Thorne reacting to the circumstances as they were when he left to give us a contrast in time of Jon's evolution as well as his other recruits.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job , Ragnorak

The turtle was stuffed full of rabbits, look at them hop away.

Dany refers to her Meereenese tokar as her floppy ears after Brown Ben said "Man wants to be king o' the rabbits, he best wear a pair of floppy ears." Jon later manages to win the wildlings over, thanks in part to what he learned about as well as from them without the need for floppy ears, compared to Dany who makes minimal effort to learn about the Meereenese.

He [Rattleshirt] is a different man without his armor.

Foreshadowing for Mance being glamoured as Rattleshirt using his bone armor?

“Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King’s Hand. For you, a noose will serve."

Irony can be quite amusing given what happens to Slynt in ADwD

but he would not suffer any more lies about his father

By TWoW, he likely won't after he is told the truth of his heritage by BR

[Lummel]

Blackthorn, no I suppose that is an old world plant and not one that even the most enthusiastic colonist would have taken out to the new world. The unsweetened fruit of the Blackthorn - the sloe, is amazingly sour. It won't just make your mouth pucker as when you bite into a delicious lemon, no, you'll pucker all the way down and out if you start eating sloes. Heh heh. But with time, work and sugar you can make drinkable wine or gin with them. (See ye descendants of colonists, life was tough in the old country! :laugh: )

I like the Turtle point Ragnorak. If one wanted to make an argument that Jon might be a king in deed, informally through his actions and the leadership he takes over situations rather than by title then maybe that might be a parallel to look at. Jon defeats the Turtle here, he fights it and overcomes it. It might symbolise the challenges that he has to deal with and tells us about the kind of ruler he will be. I suppose it also sets up a nice parallel between Aegon and Jon, they might be brothers afterall yet the claims that Varys makes for Aegon's superior upbringing - hunted, hungry, working with simple people are perhaps truer for Jon than for Aegon?

I think there is something similar suggested by taking up residence in the forge, it is a bit like the contrast between women and needlework and men and swords elsewhere. The sword is violent and destructive while the needle stitches together the realm that is rent. The Blacksmith is similar, a creative, reconstructive force, overcoming and changing nature to benefit humankind. But this also lies in the future and not in the current chapter...

[Julian Rayne]

There's something about the timing of the southron foolishness that I find particularly grating. Not that there's any good time for racism and religious bigotry ( where does Cellador think he is anyway? ) but when you're threatened by dead people and ice demons seems like the absolute worst time.

Throne at least has seen a detached hand moving by itself with his own eyes. His stupidity here is staggering.

[Ragnorak]

Blackthorn, no I suppose that is an old world plant and not one that even the most enthusiastic colonist would have taken out to the new world. The unsweetened fruit of the Blackthorn - the sloe, is amazingly sour. It won't just make your mouth pucker as when you bite into a delicious lemon, no, you'll pucker all the way down and out if you start eating sloes. Heh heh. But with time, work and sugar you can make drinkable wine or gin with them. (See ye descendants of colonists, life was tough in the old country! :laugh: )

I like the Turtle point Ragnorak. If one wanted to make an argument that Jon might be a king in deed, informally through his actions and the leadership he takes over situations rather than by title then maybe that might be a parallel to look at. Jon defeats the Turtle here, he fights it and overcomes it. It might symbolise the challenges that he has to deal with and tells us about the kind of ruler he will be. I suppose it also sets up a nice parallel between Aegon and Jon, they might be brothers afterall yet the claims that Varys makes for Aegon's superior upbringing - hunted, hungry, working with simple people are perhaps truer for Jon than for Aegon?

I think there is something similar suggested by taking up residence in the forge, it is a bit like the contrast between women and needlework and men and swords elsewhere. The sword is violent and destructive while the needle stitches together the realm that is rent. The Blacksmith is similar, a creative, reconstructive force, overcoming and changing nature to benefit humankind. But this also lies in the future and not in the current chapter...

This colonial's experience is limited to a Sloe Gin Fizz whose taste I can't even recall. I do think the cane is a beautifully subtle hint that Aemon came alone, but I don't know what to make of the Blackthorn. Perhaps I had more than one too many Sloe Gin Fizz. The thorns of blackthorn are supposed to be exceptionally vicious as far as thorned plants go. Might be a contrast with dear Alliser Thorne. The blossoms are in the plum family and plum flowers have some winter/spring symbolism tied to them. It stands out as symbolic even if not hugely important. Blackthorn is commonly used as the wood for a traditional Irish Shillelagh. Cheating and going to Wikipedia apparently "The shillelagh was originally used for settling disputes in a gentlemanly manner—like pistols in colonial America, or the katana in Japan." (Sword, Gun, Stick-- one of these things is not like the other.) There's also the popular Irish folksong Finnegan's Wake where the term "Shillelagh Law" refers to a brawl. Slynt is really relying more on this Irish jurisprudence than on the lawful weight of his title.

We're not there yet, but I very much agree with the idea that over the course of Dance Jon begins to act like a "true king" in the spirit of Sansa's "true knights." That's interesting to reflect on here with Slynt and his excessive fixation on titles. Back in Kings Landing Tyrion says this before exerting complete power over Slynt:

but I’m not a lord, as you are. A simple Tyrion will suffice for me, Lord Janos.

Tyrion isn't even actually Hand since Tywin officially holds that office but Tyrion wields the power all the same. It seems significant that the title-less Tyrion sends Slynt here and he still clings to titles. His ability to wield power here has more to do with his potential opposition being an exhausted group of cripples and green boys. It is the sheer threat of force that gives him authority and not the title which he both never really had and would have forsaken coming to the Watch anyway. Mormont gave Royce preferential treatment because he's actually noble and came willingly. He needs to be concerned about offending House Royce. Who cares if anyone offends House Slynt. Were a Mormont still here he might fear offending nobles by even deigning to proffer the title as a courtesy more than offending House Slynt, sons of literal and figurative butchers. The point really is that what we have here is an extreme of the spectrum of titles and power.

This also sets up a number of future contrasts like "Edd, fetch me a block" and Jon sending Karstark to the ice cells like he gets sent himself here. Very different identical uses of power. Karstark will also harp on Jon's bastard status like Thorne and Slynt do here. Lots of past and future juxtaposition here.

Nice job , Ragnorak

The turtle was stuffed full of rabbits, look at them hop away.

Dany refers to her Meereenese tokar as her floppy ears after Brown Ben said "Man wants to be king o' the rabbits, he best wear a pair of floppy ears." Jon later manages to win the wildlings over, thanks in part to what he learned about as well as from them without the need for floppy ears, compared to Dany who makes minimal effort to learn about the Meereenese.

He [Rattleshirt] is a different man without his armor.

Foreshadowing for Mance being glamoured as Rattleshirt using his bone armor?

“Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King’s Hand. For you, a noose will serve."

Irony can be quite amusing given what happens to Slynt in ADwD

but he would not suffer any more lies about his father

By TWoW, he likely won't after he is told the truth of his heritage by BR

Excellent points all around. Love the irony and the king o' the rabbits set up.

There's something about the timing of the southron foolishness that I find particularly grating. Not that there's any good time for racism and religious bigotry ( where does Cellador think he is anyway? ) but when you're threatened by dead people and ice demons seems like the absolute worst time.

Throne at least has seen a detached hand moving by itself with his own eyes. His stupidity here is staggering.

This situation is just awful. You're right because not only did Thorne have the wight hand which makes his "counting snarks" comment serious denial, Jon's reply of "counting giants" ought to give him pause considering these people must know how the blacksmith they're so dismissive of died even if they never took a gander from atop the Wall. The only reasonable plan they could have as far as I see is to seal the gate, flee to Shadow Tower or Eastwatch, and try to proclaim themselves heroes for stopping the Wildlings. They'd need to pretty much kill everyone here to get away with that and I don't see how being the sole survivors is going to help any of them make it to the next LC. It screams of a Nightfort story. Besides it isn't as if Mance can't attack Eastwatch or Shadow Tower too and then kill them all anyway. Don't get me wrong, I think it is realistic that people will do that in pursuit of power but it doesn't make it any less stupid.

ETA:

@LadyEmma

My apologies, I forgot you in all that. Last Christmas found us in a Tyrion reread at the chapter with that very sword. It was Tyrion so we didn't really focus on Jon but we did muse about the sword a bit if I recall. It might interest you.

[-Winterfellian-]

Thanks for another great analysis Ragnorak! Slynt and Thorne playing the Game of Crownless Thrones bit is priceless. :lol:

The 2 Kings

Something that struck me in this chapter is the imagery of two different Kings. On one hand we have the absent King of Westeros, whose failure to protect his own Realm is attested by the decadent conditions of the NW and its castles. On the other hand we have the crown-less King, Mance Rayder, who is actively involved in guarding his people, even though he is not backed up by an institutional frame and structure, which in the end does contribute to render his cause a futile one. I find this interesting in light of the question Jon poses to Mance later on, are you a true King? And Gilly’s words to Jon“that the king defends his people”. Much like the King’s tower in CB, the “King” institution is deteriorated and in ongoing decline on both sides given.

Whereas Mance “rules” from a frame devoid of a solid structure that ultimately renders him unable to protect those he needed protection (though he does try his best!) the Westerosi King has been too caught up in the structure of his own world, the Game of thrones per se, which ultimately leads to his inability and/or unwillingness to protect his own subjects. Even the King that shows up at the Wall later on sees his intervention in favor of the NW as a stepping stone towards the throne.

Jon has experienced life under both these kings and though he was an outcast under both rulers is clear that he learns enough from both models of ruling to develop the tools these two very different groups. In ADWD we see him take big steps toward accomplishing in a way what these 2 kings failed to do- protect, not the Realm of the King, but the Realms of men, which evokes questions about the nature of power and what does make a true King but am afraid to get too far ahead

[LadyEmma]

Observations:

Jon forces himself to smile to Owen and later Grenn but then later he smiles easily to an exchange between Pyp and Grenn when he gives command to Pyp. I'm not sure if this speaks to his character development overall or is just highlighting how exhausted he is and then after turtle bashing he can smile more easily.

I think the whole M'lord/My Lord exchange etc. and the similar exchanges throughout the books are a furthering of GRRM exploring the theme of identity. Just because you are entitled to a certain title, your behavior may indicate that you are not that title or visa versa you have no title but your behavior indicates that you are more than your lack of title. I think this could be important regarding Jon and his whole trying to come to terms with his bastardy (and a potential reveal that he's not even the Stark he wants to be). This could also tie in with Jon, Jaime and Theon as well, as I think all 3 of these men/boys are trying to come to terms with their identities outside of what their last name or title is.

We have two dreams:

The first is Owen's and it could actually be prophetic with the impending arrival of Stannis. Not sure what to make of Jon's. Don't recall the horn blasts from when Stannis shows so it might be that. It is fairly vague. I saw Owen's as misinterpreted prophetic and Jon's horn blowing reminded me of the horn blowing outside of Winterfell in ADWD; but I really don't like interpreting every dream as prophetic so I don't know.

Plot-wise I think there's much to be made about the Stark bashing and lumping Benjen in as a traitor. .It might just be the tone of voice that I read that exchange in but I feel like there is more history than just when Ned became Hand and was executed, especially on Thorne's part.

A note about the opening imagery

The first thing that struck me was the symbolism of old conflicts. The opening Day and night the axes rang reminded me of the original First Men and Children of the Forest conflict with all the assaults on wood. Good one! I like it.

and even a bit of brother vs. brother civil war imagery with trees shielding Wildlings from the sight of crows as both are heavily associated with the old gods and our second to last greenseer Bloodraven in particular. This part struck me as well. It almost seemed like it went out of Jon's POV to another voice? Why would Jon refer to the NW as "the hated crows"?

There's a damn Wildling army at the gates and Slynt and Thorne decide to play Game of Crownless Thrones with the Nights Watch. This is the very plot twist that has replayed over and over. Did Thorne or Slynt actually ascend the Wall to look at the enemy? I doubt it. Regardless of the existential threat we continually see honor, duty and oaths ignored for a shot at being King of the Broken Trebuchet for a few hours. Too funny!!

The turtle was stuffed full of rabbits, look at them hop away.

Dany refers to her Meereenese tokar as her floppy ears after Brown Ben said "Man wants to be king o' the rabbits, he best wear a pair of floppy ears." Jon later manages to win the wildlings over, thanks in part to what he learned about as well as from them without the need for floppy ears, compared to Dany who makes minimal effort to learn about the Meereenese. Nice connection!

He [Rattleshirt] is a different man without his armor.

Foreshadowing for Mance being glamoured as Rattleshirt using his bone armor? Good potential. Also reminds me of Varys and how he is unrecognized at times throughout story.

(See ye descendants of colonists, life was tough in the old country! :laugh: ) *grin* As kids, we'd dare each other to eat raw rhubarb. Perhaps kids in the old country dare each other to eat sloes?

I like the Turtle point Ragnorak. If one wanted to make an argument that Jon might be a king in deed, informally through his actions and the leadership he takes over situations rather than by title then maybe that might be a parallel to look at. Jon defeats the Turtle here, he fights it and overcomes it. It might symbolise the challenges that he has to deal with and tells us about the kind of ruler he will be. I suppose it also sets up a nice parallel between Aegon and Jon, they might be brothers afterall yet the claims that Varys makes for Aegon's superior upbringing - hunted, hungry, working with simple people are perhaps truer for Jon than for Aegon? This ties in with what I was writing about identity.

There's something about the timing of the southron foolishness that I find particularly grating. Not that there's any good time for racism and religious bigotry ( where does Cellador think he is anyway? ) but when you're threatened by dead people and ice demons seems like the absolute worst time.

Throne at least has seen a detached hand moving by itself with his own eyes. His stupidity here is staggering. Truly! Do you think it may not be so much foolishness but some agenda from a past conflict between Thorne and Ned? It just seems way too over the top stupid to not have more motivation to me.

Thanks for the sword link Ragnorak. It is of interest to me. I often feel like someone that has shown up to a party that is soon to be over. I couldn't find the discussion about anti-war theme. The search function here doesn't like me and even google didn't help much. I guess I'm just happy that others noticed it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

All I can think of turtles in this context, is this. Ils sont fous, ces sauvageons! (Grenn should be saying this, most likely :)). It seems a little like the battle has turned into a contest of improvisations, Jon Snow against the Mance.

Not much to add about Janos Slynt, except that he's the cause one of my favorite asoiaf insults, "I don’t know what your skull is stuffed with. My lord." Alliser Thorne, on the other hand, is a much more interesting character. He should know better, but he is blinded by hate, misplaced hate it must be noted, but I think it should be better left for ADWD. I think that Stannis' true contribution to the Wall, in the end, was saving them from those guys.

Finally, maester Aemon standing up for Jon. It's too sad he died before he knew they were family...