The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[Queen Alienor]

I think you're mostly right about the standing out in accepting women as warriors. Asha is by her own men but we get the sense that was earned over many years and most abnormal among those who won't sow. The Mormont women seem to be perfectly accepted by the Northmen but no one speaks about it much one way or the other. Not sure about Dorne. The Sand Snakes are certainly accepted but is that because of a more universal women warrior attitude or that they're Oberyn's and no one argues with Oberyn? I'd expect Dorne to be far more open in general but I can't think of a Dornish take on female warriors outside of the Sand Snakes and the ancient Nymeria. Jon definitely stands out far more than any other because he's got numerous spearwives and Axell Florent on the heels of a book with Brienne's POV that emphasizes the Southron Fool view on female warriors..

Very much agree with Jon as the most Ned-like candidate. The irony is that Ned was plagued with doubts in about the exact same way Jon is despite Jon's perception of Ned as such a stalwart man of honor who always knew.

I agree. Women as warriors seem to be special cases. Interestingly, it's the North and Dorne, the regions geologically the most far away from one another that seem to be most accepting of it. Nobody questions Mormonts or the Sand Snakes, but as you point out that could be just because they know their Oberyn's. Jon very much becomes a character that judges a person because of character and skills instead of outer things like gender or past, what I think interesting. We see that kind of thinking in Stannis as he makes a lowborn smuggler his hand, but other than that I don't remember other characters who look past the first glance.

And yeah, for all Jon's trying to figure out what Ned would do he doesn't seem to realize that Ned probably would struggle with the situations the same way he does.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I agree. Women as warriors seem to be special cases. Interestingly, it's the North and Dorne, the regions geologically the most far away from one another that seem to be most accepting of it. Nobody questions Mormonts or the Sand Snakes, but as you point out that could be just because they know their Oberyn's. Jon very much becomes a character that judges a person because of character and skills instead of outer things like gender or past, what I think interesting. We see that kind of thinking in Stannis as he makes a lowborn smuggler his hand, but other than that I don't remember other characters who look past the first glance.

And yeah, for all Jon's trying to figure out what Ned would do he doesn't seem to realize that Ned probably would struggle with the situations the same way he does.

Jamie 2.0

[Queen Alienor]

Jamie 2.0

True.

[butterbumps!]

Obsidian, as we find out, possesses some magic like qualities in the sense it is able to kill the ice-made-flesh others where man forged steel fails. Jon literally, albeit on a smaller scale, creates a workable hilt for the dagger out of simple materials in order to make it useful/serviceable for his needs, without making such a hilt he would cause himself injury, break the dagger or both. Also interesting to note is that Jon shares his improvised boon - a "newly hilted" dagger - to Grenn, which later saves his life (this incident with puddles)

Perhaps this second passage is subtle foreshadowing that Jon will find a way to fashion a metaphorical "hilt" for a sorcery-based weapon that can be used and shared with allies to fight against the long night :dunno: While this "hilt" may be rough around the edges or "Ugly" in Jon's words, it would serve its purposes.

Welcome, too!

I also agree this is a really good catch as possible foreshadowing of Jon's either being or creating a metaphorical hilt to mitigate damage.

I know a lot of people cite the Stannis! moment as a big moment. But I always read it as really "Meh" based on Jon's reaction.

I tend to agree with you. I think Jon thought he was hallucinating right before the end. It's full blown chaos with no identifiable reason for it, he sees an eagle burst into flame, Varamyr is writhing on the floor, he's standing guard outside a tent while a woman is giving birth, and thinks Dead King Robert is here. It's altogether fairly disconcerting.

As for the three qualities Mance chooses to ascribe to himself that other kings "delegate" to others he says, "I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist." Being one's own champion strikes me as a facet of wielding the sword in the First Men tradition of justice. Being a fool reminds me of the Fisher King along with a myriad of other "fool" references. Being a harpist recalls the lessons of history, the power of songs, the victor writing the history, as well as the title of our series.

Mance fails in the end, but I don't think he is a negative model for a "true king" even if imperfect. Also worth noting is the idea of a "true queen" which also comes up just before the true king discussion.

I completely agree with the way you broke down Mance's kingship discussion into clearing the air that he's not one who relies on conventional trappings of power, and then launches into his 3 masks: champion, fool, harpist.

What's curious is that Mance talks about how be basically kicked everyone's ass until he was the one who left (a conqueror model), but doesn't mention the diplomacy we learned of in Jon II:

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.

He didn't become king only through the conqueror model-- it was a mix of diplomatic appeal, propaganda (seducing with song, which I'm guessing had the effect of being advertisements of himself) and negotiating peace and order adjacently to the force side. It was carrot and stick, it seems. I wonder why he merely appealed to the stick side here, unless it was to appear more threatening in some way.

Also of note, Jon had already assessed Mance as being a true king; I suppose he posed the question to Mance here to make sure Mance would continue to be one?

Yeah you're right. I don't know, that line just kind of struck me because he is iirc the only male POV character that accepts women as warriors.

I was also going to mention Jaime (though it is admittedly grudging about it), and Tyrion might apply as well. He recognizes Chella in terms of how she wants to be recognized.

[Ragnorak]

I completely agree with the way you broke down Mance's kingship discussion into clearing the air that he's not one who relies on conventional trappings of power, and then launches into his 3 masks: champion, fool, harpist.

What's curious is that Mance talks about how be basically kicked everyone's ass until he was the one who left (a conqueror model), but doesn't mention the diplomacy we learned of in Jon II:

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.

He didn't become king only through the conqueror model-- it was a mix of diplomatic appeal, propaganda (seducing with song, which I'm guessing had the effect of being advertisements of himself) and negotiating peace and order adjacently to the force side. It was carrot and stick, it seems. I wonder why he merely appealed to the stick side here, unless it was to appear more threatening in some way.

Also of note, Jon had already assessed Mance as being a true king; I suppose he posed the question to Mance here to make sure Mance would continue to be one?

I had forgotten about that and it is definitely fit material for the "true king" discussion. It also paints a very different picture than the conqueror he presents himself as here. I suspect you're correct in that Mance is trying to present a threatening or intimidating face here.

Looking at this it seems Jon is actually open to the idea of letting the Wildlings through if they can keep the peace once on the other side. Jon's thoughts run to whether Mormont would consider the offer and whether Slynt would accept it not specifically whether or not Jon would accept it if it were his own choice. A fascinating "what if" would be what Jon would have decided if Slynt and Thorne never showed up and it actually was his choice. I suspect in the end it would be fairly close to his Tormund offer though how much of that Mance would accept is another matter.

We get the prelude to meeting Mance where Jon and Tormund share a sort of warrior's mutual respect despite their opposite sides. Both are leaders among their people but not the leaders. These are the two men who will eventually make a pact to let these Wildlings through the Wall in a manner that will keep the peace. On the "true queen" front it will be Val who is seen as a regal figure of sorts by both sides that acts for both sides to enable that pact. This is the first of three kingly proposals for crossing through the gate. Mance lays out his terms, then Stannis will offer a second king's toll for crossing and finally Jon will offer his own terms to Tormund. It is another example that demonstrates how Jon's actions are essentially king-like regardless of title.

One of the evolutions that takes place between now and then is that it will become clear that there is no king to make the call. It isn't yet apparent to Jon or the Watch that they're really on their own. In the past a LC would have to take this to Winterfell but there isn't anyone there to make the call. Even if the need were made clear to a Thorne or a Slynt I doubt either of them would dare risk making that kind of call on their own without a "yes" from some king or Lord Paramount of the North.

As a final thought, your Mance passage really makes me think of Varys and his speech to Kevan about the ever so qualified Aegon. Mance is far more that figure than this immature Aegon that Tyrion meets will likely ever be. I suspect of all the kings we've seen, Mance is the closest to a "true king" role model so far.

[Ragnorak]

On a different note did anyone else notice the direction theme?

The wind was blowing wild from the east, so strong the heavy cage would rock whenever a gust got it in its teeth. It skirled along the Wall, shivering off the ice, making Jon’s cloak flap against the bars.

Harma scowled. “East? The wights should be behind us.”
“East,” the skinchanger repeated. “Something’s coming.”

The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the ’cat was screaming too… and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning.

Slynt blew in from the east just as Stannis does. THe battle between the Watch and the Wildlings and the Others and humans are both aligned North to South. This is echoed in Harma's comment about the Others coming from behind them-- fromn the North. Jon's observations about the battle also seem to be very direction focused. I suspect a theme or some symbolism is alluding me.

I do think the wind from the east causing Jon's cloak to flap against his cage is meaningful on multiple levels. There's his immediate cage of the ice cell that he was placed in by what blew in from the east and that he'll be freed from by another eastern wind. Stannis will also offer him Winterfell and he'll end up choosing to stay in the Watch which is a cage of sorts which his cloak of identity struggles with. I can't quite place the rest of the compass point symbolism though.

I also love Aemon's letter writing and specifically to Cotter Pyke. Slynt is undone by a letter to an illiterate man that he can't even read himself. I also think that he has cause to fear Cotter Pyke and there's reasons Aemon sent the letter to Pyke instead of Mallister that go beyond Slynt simply having passed through Eastwatch. Mallister would hear both sides and weigh the issue. One might be able to talk one's way out of Mallister's potential wrath. Cotter would insist on hearing Slynt's side too but only as he was trying to stretch his intestines between Castle Black and Eastwatch. It is a crime that we've been deprived of Cotter Pyke's reaction to Slynt claiming to be Lord of Harrenhal. I wonder if Aemon included the "bastard charges" against Jon in his letter. That would make for another priceless scene we've been deprived of. Hmm... I think I want Cotter Pyke's maester as the prologue in the next book, but I digress. Mance's title-less power stands in huge contrast to the trappings based power grab Slynt is engaged in which is so flimsy it is undermined by a paper threat.

[-Winterfellian-]

Great work Bumps!

@ SansaSnow and Bleiz, welcome!

Butterbumps! wrote:

He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder wa a king in more than name.

I think power and kingship are the midst of this chapter, so am very glad you are pointing this out. It seems we are back at the old “power is a shadow on the Wall”, especially with so many recurrent shadow analogies we see in this chapter. What we are seeing with Mance here and something that will permeate Jon’s chapters in ADWD is that that power, despite of it being a invisible force (or perhaps by being invisible) is able to define and shape the perception and attitudes of others towards the wielder.

Though Mance wears no crown the power he encompasses through his own actions is enough to shape, not only the wildings’ but also Jon’s perception, enough to acknowledge he is a King. This goes with the thematic of Jon being a King in all but name that we have been exploring so far. Though both Jon and Mance seem to view the protection of others as a fundamental for kingship/power, there is one aspect where Jon surpasses Mance I feel:

You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king’s peace and obey the laws?”

Though more likely attributed to the setting in which they both move, the fact is that Jon seems to understand the value of being backed by an institutional framework. The issue is not that Mance is “not strong enough” but that he is not backed by a proper system and structure, which eventually can affect his ability to truly protect his people, as mirrored by the role the lack of discipline and order, played in their defeat at the hands of Stannis.

As for Stannis, I think he serves as a contrast for both Jon and Mance, in that, though crownless, both J & M seem to understand the protection of their respective Realms as a merit in itself, while the crowned king, we later find out sees it as a stepping stone into more power. Is this a comment of how a crown can affect a man’s way of thinking and thought processes?

I do think the wind from the east causing Jon's cloak to flap against his cage is meaningful on multiple levels. There's his immediate cage of the ice cell that he was placed in by what blew in from the east and that he'll be freed from by another eastern wind. Stannis will also offer him Winterfell and he'll end up choosing to stay in the Watch which is a cage of sorts which his cloak of identity struggles with. I can't quite place the rest of the compass point symbolism though.

When I think of the East I can help but think of Dany. Could be a reference to Jon’s own identity? At the moment he is caged within the Snow identity assigned to him for his own protection and willingly embraced later on. Is it possible that the Eastern winds that bring Dany home and her arrival “free” and at the same time rock the core of his identity/cage, when they force him to confront his possible Targ heritage? :dunno:

[Fire Eater]

The wind was blowing wild from the east, so strong the heavy cage would rock whenever a gust got it in its teeth. It skirled along the Wall, shivering off the ice, making Jon’s cloak flap against the bars.

Jon's cloak is flapping as if it were a pair of wings. His cloak flapping against the bars could point to his heritage, a caged dragon.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

May be it's Mels "super wind" that allows Stannis to show up just in time to save the "king"

A favor Jon will repay in dance

[Lummel]

...What's curious is that Mance talks about how be basically kicked everyone's ass until he was the one who left (a conqueror model), but doesn't mention the diplomacy we learned of in Jon II:

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.

I had forgotten that detail too, but I'm not surprised that Mance doesn't mention it to Jon. As a response to the the question 'are you a true king' 'well I talked to the clan mothers and made peace between Harma and the Lord of Bones' doesn't really cut the mustard, although I feel it is closer and truer to the day to day business of being a king than hitting people with swords.

Although having said while that part of the dialogue is to present Jon with a sense of the imminent threat - we're rough and tough and big and strong - the other question is can Mance keep the peace and it is odd that he is shy to sing a song of his ability to get unlikely people to work together and not eat each other.

Perhaps there is an issue that he is talking to Jon and doesn't think that a young man will be impressed by talk about talking?

ETA in terms of the directions and the wind from the east, apart from this being a reference to the amount of beans they eat at Eastwatch the only thing I can think of it that the sun rises in the east. There's a suggestion of newness, rebirth, fresh starts. In purely Westerosi terms the east is the Free Cities, ancient and modern civilisations, sophistication.

ETA2 my rereading notes

"Robb had become a hero king..." I know we've already touched on the business of memory and reputation but I thought this links to what we were saying previously about the anti-war strain in ASOIAF and also about those fires that burn out soonest. Robb as a hero king isn't a fact, it is an opinion. From the perspective of the riverlands smallfolk he's just some other great lord whose warring requires that their cows be seized and their hayrick burnt. This is heroism as military adventurer and it reminds me of Jon's early idolisation of the Young Dragon. Burn bright, die young. Storybook victories and battles but achieves no lasting peace. It is marriage not war that brought Dorne into the Kingdom. The example of the young dragon and the hero king seems to me to stand in opposition to the true king that Mance presents himself as. The true king (perhaps I should use monarch, even I'm getting concerned about the gender implications of constantly using the word king and implicitly shoving women out the picture!) is concerned for the good of his people, they are motivation by compassion for them, while the hero king is motivated by self-regard and personal ambition? (In Robb's case family, duty, honour as an extension of his own ego).

Oh, more Janos Slynt! What a great minor character. I love how he contradicts himself with a paragraph, telling Jon that "I will not have it said that Janos Slynt hanged a man unjustly. I will not" before suggesting that if Mance came to them to parley he'd hang him!

"I liked you well enough for a bastard..." says The Mance to Jon. Interesting that Mance keeps to the prejudices that us kneelers have (assuming that there are no internet enabled wildlings among the readers of this thread) and hasn't picked up the indifference to illegitimacy that Tormund showed in Jon II ASOS. But then again, Craster didn't like being called a bastard either. Perhaps it depends on what kind of a wildling you are, maybe those with a matrilineal tradition aren't so fussed by the business of paternity?

Joramun's horn again. Again the two separate notions of Joramun using the horn to wake giants and then the song saying that the horn if blown again will bring down the wall. Presumably this was untested in antiquity...then again now I can imagine Joramun as some kind of pre-internet troll, watching as the Wall is being built and then giving a quick blast on his horn so they have to start over. But away from such silliness. How does wall destruction get tied together with a giant waking horn? Though in line with the Exodus references it does suggest the ram's horns that brought down the walls of Jericho for Joshua as we've mentioned before.

Finally the disorder of the Wildlings. The camp is disorderly. The fighters are disorderly. Mance's wedge is ragged. Tormund's lines break up. The fighters give up, break and flee. The dog cart bringing down the three chariots. You can feel Mance's deep inner anguish as he sees everybody milling about in disorder as the trumpets begin to sound. We don't get a sense of the wildlings as having the discipline and leadership to fight in a stand up battle, let alone to have an ordered camp with ditches and stakes despite the threat of the white walkers and the dead. Clearly they are not influenced by Ser Arthur Dayne and his obsession with having a properly defended camp!

[butterbumps!]

I had forgotten about that and it is definitely fit material for the "true king" discussion. It also paints a very different picture than the conqueror he presents himself as here. I suspect you're correct in that Mance is trying to present a threatening or intimidating face here.

-snip-

As a final thought, your Mance passage really makes me think of Varys and his speech to Kevan about the ever so qualified Aegon. Mance is far more that figure than this immature Aegon that Tyrion meets will likely ever be. I suspect of all the kings we've seen, Mance is the closest to a "true king" role model so far.

I agree with what you've written, and tend to believe that when we look at the full context of how Mance came into power and operates, he best encapsulates the spirit of Varys' speech and our modern sensibilities of "true king" best of the other examples. It might be too tangential here, but when you fold in the layer of patrilineal uncertainty and being raised with training and trials, it always led me to think of Jon as the unintended referent in Varys' "Enlightened Despot" speech-- Jon's pretty much the sort of guy Varys is talking about, except with actual experience. But you're right in that to this point in the story, Mance is a manifestation of the Varys' model, and it's significant that Jon comes to view Mance as a "true king," as well as a mentor in ruling.

It's even more compelling when you consider that when Jon first met Mance in aSoS, Jon I, he'd immediately rejected Mance as a king precisely because he hadn't fit the expected trappings-of-power-model:

The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver. He wore wool and leather, and his only garment of note was his ragged black wool cloak, its long tears patched with faded red silk.

Which is even more interesting when you recall that Jaime looked "every bit a king" to him back in aGoT, Jon I, looking regal and beautiful in black and red attire that harkens to Rhaegar. Mance, also assuming Rhaegar's black and red, changes Jon's view of what a king looks like, forcing him to re-evaluate the role of king and what makes one a king.

I also love Aemon's letter writing and specifically to Cotter Pyke. Slynt is undone by a letter to an illiterate man that he can't even read himself. I also think that he has cause to fear Cotter Pyke and there's reasons Aemon sent the letter to Pyke instead of Mallister that go beyond Slynt simply having passed through Eastwatch. Mallister would hear both sides and weigh the issue. One might be able to talk one's way out of Mallister's potential wrath. Cotter would insist on hearing Slynt's side too but only as he was trying to stretch his intestines between Castle Black and Eastwatch. It is a crime that we've been deprived of Cotter Pyke's reaction to Slynt claiming to be Lord of Harrenhal. I wonder if Aemon included the "bastard charges" against Jon in his letter. That would make for another priceless scene we've been deprived of. Hmm... I think I want Cotter Pyke's maester as the prologue in the next book, but I digress. Mance's title-less power stands in huge contrast to the trappings based power grab Slynt is engaged in which is so flimsy it is undermined by a paper threat.

Ok, let me just say that the fact the contents of Cotter Pyke's letters and reactions happen off page is perhaps second only to witnessing Robert's Small Council meetings (you know, Barristan, Jon Arryn, Renly, Stannis, Robert, LF, Varys, Pycelle having to discuss things) on the scale of scenes we've been criminally robbed from seeing.

Though Mance wears no crown the power he encompasses through his own actions is enough to shape, not only the wildings’ but also Jon’s perception, enough to acknowledge he is a King. This goes with the thematic of Jon being a King in all but name that we have been exploring so far. Though both Jon and Mance seem to view the protection of others as a fundamental for kingship/power, there is one aspect where Jon surpasses Mance I feel:

Though more likely attributed to the setting in which they both move, the fact is that Jon seems to understand the value of being backed by an institutional framework. The issue is not that Mance is “not strong enough” but that he is not backed by a proper system and structure, which eventually can affect his ability to truly protect his people, as mirrored by the role the lack of discipline and order, played in their defeat at the hands of Stannis.

As for Stannis, I think he serves as a contrast for both Jon and Mance, in that, though crownless, both J & M seem to understand the protection of their respective Realms as a merit in itself, while the crowned king, we later find out sees it as a stepping stone into more power. Is this a comment of how a crown can affect a man’s way of thinking and thought processes?

It's good to see you again! I agree with the way you're thinking about this wholeheartedly, and it reinforces a lesson we'll see Jon reflect on again in DwD: "they follow the man, not the name." Since I haven't seen you around, you might have missed two threads that speak to the way you're thinking about this: one I made about Dany (now locked), and another one by FE debating the role of a name in Jon's relation to kingship (the debate about construction of power starts halfway in I think).

I had forgotten that detail too, but I'm not surprised that Mance doesn't mention it to Jon. As a response to the the question 'are you a true king' 'well I talked to the clan mothers and made peace between Harma and the Lord of Bones' doesn't really cut the mustard, although I feel it is closer and truer to the day to day business of being a king than hitting people with swords.

Although having said while that part of the dialogue is to present Jon with a sense of the imminent threat - we're rough and tough and big and strong - the other question is can Mance keep the peace and it is odd that he is shy to sing a song of his ability to get unlikely people to work together and not eat each other.

Perhaps there is an issue that he is talking to Jon and doesn't think that a young man will be impressed by talk about talking?

ETA in terms of the directions and the wind from the east, apart from this being a reference to the amount of beans they eat at Eastwatch the only thing I can think of it that the sun rises in the east. There's a suggestion of newness, rebirth, fresh starts. In purely Westerosi terms the east is the Free Cities, ancient and modern civilisations, sophistication.

On the bolded, I agree with this and the references to Dany. Additionally, I also greatly enjoy Slynt as a comedic figure, and a fountain of wit and wisdom: "A bold man drinks his fill!" He sure does.

[Maia]

He doesn’t trust Tywin to actually let him live to take the Black, but in the event Tywin can be trusted on this, Tyrion seems to be at peace with the idea.

Not really:

"A servant brought him porridge and honey to break his fast, but all he could taste was bile at the thought of confession. They will call me kinslayer till the end of my days. For a thousand years or more, if I am remembered at all, it will be as the monstrous dwarf who poisoned his young nephew at his wedding feast. The thought made him so bloody angry that he flung the bowl and spoon across the room and left a smear of porridge on the wall."

Very much like Jon, Tyrion is concerned with his reputation and very angry at the thought of being remembered as a criminal and a monster. In fact, it is implied that he wouldn't have accepted for that very reason, even if he could trust his father.

Interestingly enough, unlike in the show it is _Tyrion_, who is concerned with his historical legacy, not Tywin. And Jon too, as we see in this chapter. Another parallel between them.

I'd say that assassination of Mance is not a bad idea in the short term, given how crucial he is to keeping the wildling horde together. Of course, that would have made any future attempts to treat with wildlings impossible, so shows a lack of long-term thinking on the part of Slynt/Thorne combo.

The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.

And yet, I can't help but notice that the few wildling leaders who are not fighters, are those with supernatural abilities.

And also, doesn't this apply to warfare in general? You may think that you know what you are going achieve by starting/joining a war, but the reality is often very different and it is very difficult to put a stop to it, once started.

But firstly, I don’t think that was the true horn (which Tormund confirms in DwD). Meaning, I believe Mance was using this as a bargaining chip. And secondly, the interplay between the sight of the horn and Mance and Dalla’s obvious reluctance to use it is also kind of brilliant as a means of selling the fiction that it’s real.

Yes, they sold it well, but was it really such a great plan? Giving NW 3 days to think about it, during which the northern lords directly in the path of invasion might have finally come to their senses and sent help? Why not send other groups over the Wall during the battle and have them sneak to the Castle Black gate while everybody was distracted by the frontal attack or even start working on the opening of one of the closed gates?

This makes me think that either Mance wasn't as great a military leader as he seemed or he _did_ have something in mind and maybe was trying to lull the NW into complacency.

Mance is trying to get protection from an institution that has seen them as enemies for thousands of years. Simply appealing to the Watch about sanctuary from their shared enemy is never going to work

I disagree with this. Presenting NW with some wights might have worked to convince Mormont. Of course, any agreement between the NW, the Realm and the wildlings would have required Mance's head and he is not as self-sacrificing as that.

Also, his ego was big enough that he thought that he'd be able to fight off the Others and then to breach through the Wall in strength and treat with the North from position of strength.

I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first.They follow fighters.

This sounds attractive on the surface, but this is actually the reason for wildlings being so poor and primitive. No division of labor, no continuity, you have to be a kick-ass fighter before you can hope to lead, etc. No room for Daeron the Good or Jahaerys the Conciliator as a King beyond the Wall.

You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king’s peace and obey the laws?”

It has been mentioned how forward-thinking and open-minded this question shows Jon to be.

So, let me rain on the parade and say that it makes him look very naive too. After all, why would even more reasonable people than Slynt and Thorne ever trust Mance? He betrayed the most solemn oath in Westeros and murdered his sworn brothers - doesn't it make him as much a "kinslayer" as Theon? Why would his promises be worth a spit for a Westerosi?

Mance balks, letting him know that they intend to make their own laws and govern themselves, causing Jon considerable discomfort.

Yep, and we know what their "laws" are and what they intended to do, once on the other side of the Wall, from both Mance and Ygritte.

Wildlings reasons for their attack on the North are sympathetic (this time) and several of them are depicted as charismatic individuals. So, it is easy to forget that they are not some peaceful refugées who just want to hide behind the Wall, but a genuine threat to the North. Lesser threat than the Others, sure, but a threat still.

I believe Jon had made a few decisions: abort the assassination, break the horn, and let the wildlings get through as they inevitably would with a few more attacks.

Yes, Jon prioritizes the horn for obvious reasons, but I am not sure that we can conclude that he wants or intends to "let" the wildlings through. Why would he, given what it would mean for the North? It is just that Jon can only pick one target and he bought the idea that the horn was genuine hook, line and sinker.

Yes, it becomes rather clear afterwards that the horn was fake, IMHO. Another example of Jon's naiveté?

[butterbumps!]

Not really:

"A servant brought him porridge and honey to break his fast, but all he could taste was bile at the thought of confession. They will call me kinslayer till the end of my days. For a thousand years or more, if I am remembered at all, it will be as the monstrous dwarf who poisoned his young nephew at his wedding feast. The thought made him so bloody angry that he flung the bowl and spoon across the room and left a smear of porridge on the wall."

Very much like Jon, Tyrion is concerned with his reputation and very angry at the thought of being remembered as a criminal and a monster. In fact, it is implied that he wouldn't have accepted for that very reason, even if he could trust his father.

Interestingly enough, unlike in the show it is _Tyrion_, who is concerned with his historical legacy, not Tywin. And Jon too, as we see in this chapter. Another parallel between them.

Yes, that parallel was there, but it wasn't what I was speaking to with the idea of Tyrion "being at peace" with taking the Black. Yes, he's upset that no matter what he does, he'll go down in the songs as a monster. But I was referring to the part where he talked himself into thinking the Watch wouldn't be such a bad fate, if not his preferred life.

I disagree with this. Presenting NW with some wights might have worked to convince Mormont. Of course, any agreement between the NW, the Realm and the wildlings would have required Mance's head and he is not as self-sacrificing as that.

Also, his ego was big enough that he thought that he'd be able to fight off the Others and then to breach through the Wall in strength and treat with the North from position of strength.

This sounds attractive on the surface, but this is actually the reason for wildlings being so poor and primitive. No division of labor, no continuity, you have to be a kick-ass fighter before you can hope to lead, etc. No room for Daeron the Good or Jahaerys the Conciliator as a King beyond the Wall.

I'm not sure I follow your disagreement. You say that you disagree with the fact that the Watch would never let wildlings through (Mormont would have with wight proof), but then went on in your post to point out that the wildlings are in fact very dangerous and lawless within the realm. It's the fact that the wildings are, yes, dangerous to the realm that's why not even Mormont would have allowed it ultimately. There's an argument that Mormont might be inclined in the event that there was a strong lord in Winterfell to keep order on them, but that's not the situation.

It has been mentioned how forward-thinking and open-minded this question shows Jon to be.

So, let me rain on the parade and say that it makes him look very naive too. After all, why would even more reasonable people than Slynt and Thorne ever trust Mance? He betrayed the most solemn oath in Westeros and murdered his sworn brothers - doesn't it make him as much a "kinslayer" as Theon? Why would his promises be worth a spit for a Westerosi?

Not so much forward-thinking, but that his views of kingship have evolved to something closer to what modern readers might conceptualize.

Jon might be naive here in buying Mance's argument wrt the horn, but I don't think he's being naive in terms of trusting Mance despite the fact he's a deserter. Mance has been performing what's basically the task of the NW for a few years-- he tried fighting the Others and unified the people for an exodus, dangerous as they might be. I mean, his actions to that end are consistent with what he's telling Jon.

Yes, Jon prioritizes the horn for obvious reasons, but I am not sure that we can conclude that he wants or intends to "let" the wildlings through. Why would he, given what it would mean for the North? It is just that Jon can only pick one target and he bought the idea that the horn was genuine hook, line and sinker.

Yes, it becomes rather clear afterwards that the horn was fake, IMHO. Another example of Jon's naiveté?

As I mentioned upthread, I think evidence of Jon's naivete would be more clear if Dalla and Mance hadn't done such a good job selling it. The fact that they revealed they were loathe to blow it was a good bit of persuasion to the horn's authenticity. I think they sold it pretty well.

In general, I think this is a chapter that puts both Mance and Jon in a fairly good light in terms of understanding leadership/ humane objectives. I think there are other chapters where these two might be criticized a bit more strongly to those ends, but I'm not sure there's much to detract wrt their abilities in this particular one, really.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Some nitpicking

... It is marriage not war that brought Dorne into the Kingdom. ...

Ironically, it was marriage not war that brought down the young wolf.

Politics, I think, is the key here, to know when it's time for diplomacy and when it's time to fight. But the concern about post-mortem fame is puting he cart before the horse, as Stannis would say, in terms of political decisions. Decisions, actions and results are what build posthumous fame, not the other way round.

This sounds attractive on the surface, but this is actually the reason for wildlings being so poor and primitive. No division of labor, no continuity, you have to be a kick-ass fighter before you can hope to lead, etc. No room for Daeron the Good or Jahaerys the Conciliator as a King beyond the Wall.

Scientifically, it's the opposite. It's the accumulation of welth that promotes higher society structure. And it comes at a cost, too. The first ever division of labor, historically, was between men and women...

-----

Speaking of men and women, it's often said in the series that birth is a woman's battle. The following passage indicates there are two "battles" going on simultaneously. Dalla lost hers as Mance was losing his.

“Gone? He can’t be gone, not now. It’s started.”

“The battle?” He watched the rangers scatter before Harma’s bloody dog’s head. The raiders screamed and hacked and chased the men in black back into the trees. But there were more men coming from the wood, a column of horse. Knights on heavy horse, Jon saw. Harma had to regroup and wheel to meet them, but half of her men had raced too far ahead.

“The birth!” Val was shouting at him.

In the previous chapters Jon was fighting but in this, he's a spectator in Mance's and Dalla's "battles". A baby is born in conditions that have so many parallels that it feels like Jon is watching his own birth. The son of a king who fell in battle, as mother was dying in childbirth, aunt Val taking care of the baby... The later babyswitch comletes the image.

----

An other quote that caught my attention:

“You know nothing, Jon Snow,” Ygritte would have told him. I know that I am going to die, he thought. I know that much, at least.

After all, Jon didn't die.

There seems to be a pattern with Jon's certainties, he does much better when he is in self-doubt.

[Lummel]

If we're nit picking ShadowCat Rivers didn't Davos use the phrase put the cart before the horse and Stannis explicitly quotes him? ;) Thanks for the Young Dragon detail though, if I did know that once I'd forgotten it :)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If we're nit picking ShadowCat Rivers didn't Davos use the phrase put the cart before the horse and Stannis explicitly quotes him? ;) Thanks for the Young Dragon detail though, if I did know that once I'd forgotten it :)

Did he? I never heard him saying it. ;)

[Bran Vras]

I intrude, if you allow me, to defend Janos Slynt. Really. I was on the board yesterday for a visit to the Sansa thread, and I happened to come here. It occurred to me that the reread of Jon’s story would benefit from a more sympathetic understanding of Lord Janos.

GRRM takes a perverse pleasure in putting truth in the mouths of liars, oafs, madmen and odious characters. We should listen to Janos when he names the three infamies of Jon Snow (a bastard, a warg and a turncloak). It is not so much the truth of these accusations (and more to come) that matter as their perceived veracity and how they reflect the opinion of what would become the silent majority of the Night’s Watch. The manner in which Jon manages these accusations, and more generally his image, is central to what would lead eventually to his assassination.

Calling Jon a warg and a bastard might be prejudice. (Though I suspect there are sound reasons for hunting wargs south of the Wall.) Naming him a wildling might not be entirely false.

I have read Butterbumps’ contribution to the reread concerning the meeting of Jon and Mance. With Jon we indeed heard the melancholic tones of the Dornishman’s Wife and understood that the song proclaims a certain idea of life. Good. Isn’t it also a raider’s song (*)? Similarly, Jon sees in Bael the Bard a romantic character (the tale is part of Ygritte’s seduction) while Stoneskake calls Bael a murderer, a rapist and a robber.

There is no definite meaning to the Dornishman’s Wife. The ambiguity makes it a mirror of the soul. I suppose Janos Slynt would hear a raider’s song. Chett wanted to become another Craster. Jon found in Mance and Ygritte what he wanted to find. GRRM has been shrewd enough to make our perception of Mance match Jon’s. I believe the Free Folk bears enormous appeal to Jon, and Mance, impossible to dislike, represents the best of it. After meeting the like of Craster and Rattleshirt, coming across Mance was like reading Kerouac’s On the Road in 1960. Jon never imagined one could live freely like that.

At this point of the reread, the latter observations are perhaps of little relevance, and too sketchy. But I want to stress that the point of view of Jon’s detractors is worthy of consideration, and I am willing to serve as Janos Slynt's advocate as the conversation continues.

(*) That the Dornishman’s Wife could be about rape finds an echo in Serge Gainsbourg’s song La nostalgie camarade.

[Lummel]

...Looking at this it seems Jon is actually open to the idea of letting the Wildlings through if they can keep the peace once on the other side. Jon's thoughts run to whether Mormont would consider the offer and whether Slynt would accept it not specifically whether or not Jon would accept it if it were his own choice. A fascinating "what if" would be what Jon would have decided if Slynt and Thorne never showed up and it actually was his choice. I suspect in the end it would be fairly close to his Tormund offer though how much of that Mance would accept is another matter...

...One of the evolutions that takes place between now and then is that it will become clear that there is no king to make the call. It isn't yet apparent to Jon or the Watch that they're really on their own. In the past a LC would have to take this to Winterfell but there isn't anyone there to make the call. Even if the need were made clear to a Thorne or a Slynt I doubt either of them would dare risk making that kind of call on their own without a "yes" from some king or Lord Paramount of the North...

One aspect of Stannis Attacks! Is that the story never has to deal with the consequences of dealing with the culture clash of Wildlings and Northerners on an equal basis. The fact of Mance's defeat and the educative experience of exposure to harassment by the White Walkers/Dead/Cold is to make Tormund's wildlings amenable to coming through as inferiors to Jon and agreeable to his conditions. We'll have to see if GRRM sweeps the cultural differences between Wildlings and non-wildlings under the narrative carpet or comes back to it in the future books. I suppose too it is crucial that Jon makes his decision and can only make that decision in ADWD because there is a power vacuum. Like you say this would have been the call of Winterfell at the very least if not Kings landing in a more normal situation.

...I also love Aemon's letter writing and specifically to Cotter Pyke. Slynt is undone by a letter to an illiterate man that he can't even read himself...

A lovely detail! :laugh:

...the fact is that Jon seems to understand the value of being backed by an institutional framework. The issue is not that Mance is “not strong enough” but that he is not backed by a proper system and structure, which eventually can affect his ability to truly protect his people, as mirrored by the role the lack of discipline and order, played in their defeat at the hands of Stannis.

As for Stannis, I think he serves as a contrast for both Jon and Mance, in that, though crownless, both J & M seem to understand the protection of their respective Realms as a merit in itself, while the crowned king, we later find out sees it as a stepping stone into more power. Is this a comment of how a crown can affect a man’s way of thinking and thought processes? ...

That is an nice twist on that familiar theme. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely as Lord Acton said. The rulership we are seeing here is at an absolutely basic level. One person working to protect the community with no structure and no support . At the other end of the spectrum we get the likes of King Bob who has structures and institutions to be his fool, champion and singer etc in place but he has lost sight perhaps of the basic point and duty of being a King?

...Yes, they sold it well, but was it really such a great plan? Giving NW 3 days to think about it, during which the northern lords directly in the path of invasion might have finally come to their senses and sent help? Why not send other groups over the Wall during the battle and have them sneak to the Castle Black gate while everybody was distracted by the frontal attack or even start working on the opening of one of the closed gates?

This makes me think that either Mance wasn't as great a military leader as he seemed or he _did_ have something in mind and maybe was trying to lull the NW into complacency...

...Also, his ego was big enough that he thought that he'd be able to fight off the Others and then to breach through the Wall in strength and treat with the North from position of strength...

...Yes, Jon prioritizes the horn for obvious reasons, but I am not sure that we can conclude that he wants or intends to "let" the wildlings through. Why would he, given what it would mean for the North? It is just that Jon can only pick one target and he bought the idea that the horn was genuine hook, line and sinker.

Yes, it becomes rather clear afterwards that the horn was fake, IMHO. Another example of Jon's naiveté?

I'm not sure it is naive of Jon to take the threat of the horn seriously. It is rather like a bomb hoax these days to my mind. It has to be taken seriously surely? Quite what Mance was intending is the mystery. I think you are right to point out that he was intending to be working from a position of strength and there is in that an over estimation of his own abilities and of those of his people and quite were he was going with the horn is a mystery. Did he believe it was real? Was it real? Perhaps it was afterall?

I think it is quite clear that Jon does see the prospect of letting the wildlings through as a threat "Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbour and fishwives off the Stony Shore?" He's thinking about it in a (very visual) negative way.

And at this stage with regard to the horn and the talk of letting the wildlings through it is just talk. How things might have continued we don't know because Stannis Attacks! and cuts off the conversation. We can imagine either Jon trying to destroy the horn and maybe fight Mance or going back to the Wall with the ultimatum, but we don't know how it would have played out. I suppose both those options might well have ended in Jon's death. Can we see Stannis Attacks! as a parallel to Bran's intervention in Jon V ASOS?

Did he? I never heard him saying it. ;)

Oh, I was thinking of Stannis saying "I had the cart before the horse, Davos said." Jon XI ASOS. But perhaps Davos never did say it...Ah, the mystery of Stannis falsely attributing folksy sayings to Davos! :ninja:

GRRM takes a perverse pleasure in putting truth in the mouths of liars, oafs, madmen and odious characters...But I want to stress that the point of view of Jon’s detractors is worthy of consideration, and I am willing to serve as Janos Slynt's advocate as the conversation continues...

Nice to see you Bran Vras! And thank you for your kind offer to serve, pro bono I trust, as Slynt's advocate. I'm not sure he needs defending. All his charges and accusations against Jon are true. There's no debating that. What we saw debated in the previous chapter was an attempt by Aemon and Jon to put his actions into a context. We'll see later the impact of Janos' views on the wider membership of the Watch and perhaps it is something to come back to in places when we are in ADWD. I think though at the moment we are all simply enjoying the bluster and self-importance of the character!

Your point about putting truth in the mouths of unlikely characters reminds me of Arya's outburst about Joffrey making it clear to The Ned that King Bob wasn't his father.

[Ragnorak]

I intrude, if you allow me, to defend Janos Slynt. Really. I was on the board yesterday for a visit to the Sansa thread, and I happened to come here. It occurred to me that the reread of Jon’s story would benefit from a more sympathetic understanding of Lord Janos.

...

Are you considering a new career as a defense attorney and looking for some practice? :laugh:

If I understand you correctly, you're positing that the on page accusations from Slynt are our window into the off page accusations that form the basis of the anti-Jon plot that culminates at the end of DwD. Is that an accurate summation?

If so, I happen to like the idea because I do think Martin offers us a few on page scenes that are intentional stand ins for off page happenings. The problem I have is with Slynt as a "sympathetic" voice. He strikes me as a self-satirizing figure. I see the underlying theme of what makes a "true king" with Mance and then the Stannis rescue which is motivated by Davos and his plea to Stannis with his own version of what makes a "true king." Slynt is trying so very hard to be every single trapping of power that Mance claims not to have when asked if he's a king. One of his accusations against Jon is "bastard" yet it is the bastard Cotter Pyke that intimidates him from his desired course of outright hanging Jon.

Specifically the sympathetic problem I have comes in the future. Martin has a lot of lines that lampoon Bowen Marsh but they're dropped in more toward the background than the primary portrayal of his on screen character. Leaving a senile knight in charge despite his inability to even remember he's in charge simply because he's a knight is a bit silly-- to say the least. Here at the Wall we have tens of thousands of Wildlings, the bulk of their forces, plus the attack that took place from the south by the Thenns. The cripples, old men, and green boys that Marsh felt unfit held off this two pronged attack with minimal losses whereas it seems Bowen had a valiantly fought one for one exchange with the Wildlings. Despite what seems to be intentionally objective information regarding Marsh's lack of fitness for command, he does not come across unsympathetically.

Slynt is clearly self-serving with absolutely no interest in the welfare of the Watch or any sense of duty. He is transparently hypocritical with examples like Lummel mentioned with "not hanging a man unjustly" right before he says he'll hang Mance even under a banner of truce. Marsh, despite his flaws, is not really a self-serving man. He has a vision for the Watch and beliefs about his duty that he seems to want to fulfill in good faith and conscience. His wounds in battle undermine the sense of bigotry his anti-wildling stand might otherwise have had. His valor in battle, however tactically flawed his engagement was, undermine the sense of cowardice that his later desire to seal the gate might convey. Marsh has been set up to be the voice of a competing vision for the Watch to Jon's. We're given enough information to reasonably conclude that he's wrong and likely incapable of realizing that vision if given the authority to try, but not any sense that Bowen is power hungry or self-aggrandizing at the expense of duty.

So I see Marsh as the one that's being set up as a somewhat sympathetic opposition to Jon that makes the disagreement one of competing visions for the future. If I factor in Slynt and add his accusations into the mix I think it undermines Marsh as a well intentioned but wrong figure and makes the disagreement more about bigotry and prejudice than competing visions. One can view the Ides of Marsh as trying to stop Caesar before he crosses the Rubicon so it is never crossed. If Slynt were running that plot it would be to replace Caesar as the guy crossing the Rubicon. The Shield Hall is a setting of institutional decay and seems to emphasize the status quo vs. reform idea. We get other little touches of that with the lively snowball fight after the Wildlings come through the Wall or the hints of a vibrant new beginning with the Karstark wedding celebration. I'm not sure how a Slynt fits into those future themes.

[Lummel]

I'd agree that Marsh is the sympathetic / alternative vision for the Watch rather than Slynt. My sense of it is that Slynt's accusations of bastard, fornicating oathbreaker and warg backfire - however this properly belongs with the last Jon ASOS chapter rather than here. Perhaps somebody can be kind enough to bring it up then if we forget to cover it in the chapter introduction?

The big difference between Marsh and Slynt in my mind in terms of their opposition to Jon is that Slynt is a newcomer to the Wall. If he seriously complained to Cotter Pyke that Jon was a bastard then it shows a complete obtuseness in understanding what the Watch is and who he was complaining to :laugh:

Marsh on the other hand has served his time on the Wall. He is a veteran, he is familiar with the traditions, legends, stories of the Watch. He knows how things have been done. Whether that is right or wrong or appropriate for the challenges that will face the Watch in ADWD I feel there is a sense that his views are grounded in his long experience up at the Wall, amongst other things too one example of which as Ragnorak says the prejudices of his class come into play.