The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[butterbumps!]

I might be giving Stannis more credit than he is due, but I don't think he would use Jon anyway. I am certain that, before meeting Jon, Stannis had gathered all the info about the events at the Wall prior to his arrival.

Stannis would be positively predisposed towards Jon for the reasons he gives as to why he believes him (the lack of credibility of the accuser, the quality of the man who raised him, plus maybe Donal Noye and Aemon's opinions) but for his final verdict and decision, this meeting on the Wall was absolutely nessecary, IMO. Melissandre is also present there. In Davos III, she claims that she can tell when someone lies (and I believe that she does have that skill). So Stannis would know if Jon tells the truth or no.

The true reason that Stannis invokes Jon's father and their resemblance would be, I think, to put Jon at ease so that he can pass on to the real test: the questions for the good things he's heard about him. Jon's answers there are what seal the deal for Stannis, I believe. It's noticeable that he doesn't offer Winterfell before. Had Jon claimed the honor of capturing Val and the baby or holding the gate instead of crediting Noye, I'm not sure if Stannis would have proceeded. The whole conversation before the offer is actually made, seems very much like an evaluation procedure to me.

I can see an argument for this as an evaluation of sorts, but I'm not sure about it. I think we both agree that the reference to Ned and Jon's likeness is more about buttering/ putting at ease than a genuine testament of truthfulness to Stannis.

But after that, Stannis' appeal devolves somewhat as Jon doesn't give him what he wants. He comes right out and states a few times that he's looking to make use of Jon; it seems that Stannis would overlook a great deal in exchange for Jon's support as lord of Winterfell. I'm not thinking it speaks poorly for Stannis or anything, only that I don't think Jon's innocence was nearly as important to him as getting the North behind him, and with that, behind Stannis.

I guess one other question is perhaps how you see Stannis? I'm not sure that Stannis values honor or modesty, that is, I didn't get the sense that he wanted Jon to be coy about his deeds as a way of determining whether Jon was worthy of it. I think Stannis sincerely hoped that Jon would jump at the chance for legitimacy because he'd already decided that Jon was a critical part; I don't think Jon's personal worth or honor had much to do with the offer (he will later consider offering this to Karstark and a few of his Southron men).

But by then, his escapades with the Wildlings, along with his status as Mormont's choice for successor (via the raven, the sword and his initial appointment as steward to the LC) would have been a much bigger factor than his behavior during his training.

Oh, undoubtedly. I just thought it was sort of funny that Jon's doing the same activity that won him support of his peers in the past, and while it's probably making some of the recruits amenable to him, it stands outside the politics of the election.

I would go as far as saying that Stannis' offer does not make political sense. Allocating Winterfell to an apostate bastard and his wildling consort would antagonize the north, or so it seems after ADwD. Has Stannis any idea of the politics of the north at this point? Melisandre's influence and manichean views are possibly to blame. It's interesting to consider that she is behind Stannis' proposal, as the scene in the winch cage clearly suggests that Melisandre has already her eyes on Jon Snow.

Compare this to the war council in Jon IV, ADwD, where Stannis will listen to Jon's forceful advice for gaining the north: don't give lordships to wildlings, keep Melisandre away from the heart trees.

It's seemingly a contradiction that Jon's strategic lucidity of the latter chapter does not appear when Stannis makes his offer at the top of the Wall.

I agree-- the specifics of Stannis' offer make no sense in terms of the overall strategy needed for the big picture. However, I'm not sure the part about having Jon take Winterfell was incorrect; he's still "the Ned's son," and depending on which Starks factions of the North are aware of, I think he may have gotten support, at least, enough to change some events. If a rallied North, with its attention turned to the Long Night, is a critical part of the overall plan, I think Jon might make a better candidate than anyone else, and I'm not sure that the other lords would have had such significant issues with his bastardy. But yea, I agree, this is a very bad plan in terms of how it would manifest.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Mel is thought of as a true queen but the term seems strictly limited to the wielding of power rather than any quality inherent in being a queen.

There's a bit of a sexual overtone on Mel's behalf toward Jon.

Later in DwD she will again remind him of Ygritte in what will seem to be an overt use of magic.

When did Jon start figuring into Mel's fires? Would she have sufficient reason to start working her magic on him here?

I noticed that too Ragnorak, and Melisandre doesn't see Jon in her fires till Stannis is far away from the Wall- either courting the hill-folk or marching on WF. Right from Mel's first meeting with Jon, she acts seductively. She sends the Queen's guards away and travels up the Wall with him alone. She holds her hand against his cheek and laughs when he asks if she's cold. Jon is a total stranger to her and he's being called a murderer, traitor, warg, craven by his brothers and Melisandre acts like that with him?!

During Stannis's chat, she again reaches out and places her hand against his arm. A paragraph later, she stands so close he can feel the warmth of her breath. It's very evident how attracted she is to Jon from the first time they meet.

Stannis also acts a bit bizarre with Jon because in the last scene, he puts his hand on his shoulder and gives him the spiel about WF. Up till that moment, we don't see Stannis touching people and making physical contact with other folks while talking to them. I read through all of Davos's chapters to see if my inkling was right and Stannis never touches Davos but one time. That was when he made him Hand and he had ordered him to kneel. Stannis touched him when he offered Davos his hand to help him stand back up.

So, both Mel and Stannis go out of their way to make a physical connection with Jon, although I think Stannis's seems platonic, almost a fatherly kind of touch? Whatever Stannis reasoning's were for holding Jon's shoulder, that gentle behavior is a HUGE anomaly for him.

One other thing I noticed about their initial meeting was that Stannis "towered over Jon". I often wondered if Jon had grown several inches in the year he'd been at the Wall because of the strange bouts of inhumane strength he exhibits. But it seems he hasn't gotten much taller and Sam doesn't note his girth growing, so I'm back to thinking his strength is like his warging- a gift from the Old Gods/Bloodraven.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

When do we see the White Raven at the Wall? Isn't that still to come?

Early Clash, maybe i'm misremembering and it's in Brans chapter and arrives at winterfell, i don't have books on hand

It mark's the end of summer, not nec the one or type(?) that says winter has arrived

[Ragnorak]

:thumbsup:

Something that popped into my mind here with the offer you can't refuse from Stannis was how it could be a parallel with the scene with Mance in Jon I ASOS. There was the offer of freedom (and free love) at the cost of turning cloak on his oath (to a weirwood), here is the offer of dominion and marriage at the cost of turning his back on his father's gods / his gods by burning the weirwood. I was reminded of the temptations that Jesus was offered by the Devil in the desert, but could only remember the offer of dominion, in anycase the repeated temptations - are there more seem interesting.

I like your drawing the parallel with Bob's offer to The Ned at the opening of AGOT, which was to only cost The Ned his life, cripple Bran, set off a chain of events that would see Catelyn and Robb dead, Arya and Sansa in unsafe places. I wonder if at that moment Jon recalled the dead Mama Direwolf with an antler in its throat?

The meeting on the wall is odd in that Stannis wants to keep it secret yet being summoned by Melisandre and a bunch of Queensmen, riding up with her in the lift to speak with Stannis on top of the wall is highly public. Given the amount of gossip there seems to be going around in Castle Black surely the fact of the meeting would have been no secret! It does seem theatrical as you say, a place that puts a certain perspective on the lay of the land?

Agree that personality or character must be the likely drivers of voting behaviour on the Wall. I can't see there being enough flexibility either in the oath or the resources available for policy issues to predominate: vote Mallister - tough on Wildlings, tough on the causes of Wildlings just doesn't seem very likely somehow!

ETA teh idea that oaths sworn by night's watchmen to Weirwoods have a special quality was also an early idea on the Heresy threads.

It has been a while since we looked at the Christian symbolism that seems prevalent in Jon's arc. Your Mance encounter would be the first(?) temptation and Stannis the second. What is our third? I do think the Christianity angle offers us one of the better interpretations for how we are supposed to read the offer to abandon his father's gods. I'm torn on viewing his earlier midnight ride to join Robb as a temptation. It could be but there isn't really a dangled carrot or a snake offering an apple. His own mind framed it as a conflict of honor rather than temptation.

In considering the Robert/Ned parallel I was struck by how much better the Stannis offer really is. A marriage to Val or a marriage to Joffrey-- is there really any question? To return to a Winterfell one has been cast out of or abandon the Winterfell that is already home to take the accursed trek south of the Neck? Which is the offer made by a friend and which is made the desperate contender to throne? It really is quite a nice offer and it helps underscore what a liability Mel's religion is for Stannis. Sure in the end Jon may have refused Winterfell for Sansa and Arya as Sansa is the reason he voices to Stannis later, but it is the Weirwood that makes the decision to decline clear to him.

@Lummel@Ragnorak You are both right that the Lord Commander has generally a narrowly defined task, which explains that he would rather be elected in function of his standing among his peers. This is why I mentioned the extraordinary current circumstances: 1) Stannis’ arrival and occupation, 2) the murder of Mormont, 3) the wildling assault, 4) the resurgence of the Others, 5) the war of the five kings and 6) the continuing decline of the Watch. Only 1) and 5) seem to have been an election issue.

The Kingsmoot and the choosing of the Commander are part of a larger comparison I have in mind. It seems to me that Euron’s kingship is a useful counterpart to understand Jon Snow’s tenure as Lord Commander. Whatever we think of these rulers, they will both prove to be revolutionary leaders. For a start, Euron will operate with a stronger mandate, in reason of his declared intentions prior to his election.

I think the Kingsmoot offers tremendous potential. The Ironborn are raiders much like the Wildlings so their Kingsmoot is the type of thing we'd expect to be somewhere between picking a king-beyond-the-Wall and a Grand Council to decide the next occupant for the Iron Throne. Aside from being a contemporary plot element, given Jon's Wildling affinity it is a very appropriate comparison.

Stannis is a King and the notion of letting Wildlings through the Wall is technically the call of a King and not a Lord Commander. It is interesting that both Mormont and Stannis come to the same conclusion as Jon regarding the Wildlings once they embrace the truth of the Others. Mormont dies before he can elaborate on his policy choices for the Wildlings and his refusal to consider Sam's suggestion of taking Craster's son south may indicate he had none yet despite his epiphany. The distinction between Stannis and Jon in their terms to the Wildlings shows that it isn't necessarily a good or bad choice on its face. Hundreds of unproductive resentful mouths sitting in Moles Town pecking away at the Winter stores is a recipe for disaster. Stannis does have a plan to settle them on the Gift but Jon will delay those plans once he's LC. Even between these two men in agreement about this Wildling issue we see two different visions. I think Stannis and Jon and then later Jon and the Mountain Clan leaders are the only ones that rationally discuss the Wildling issue. It isn't that Marsh's food concerns are irrational, just that he isn't willing to rationally entertain ideas or offer suggestions beyond objecting flat out. For example, he never offers a maximum Wildling number that could be supported by their present food supply-- it had to be some given the deaths in the Watch.

It does stand out that both the human and the supernatural threats to the North take a back seat to the southern politics they are sworn to take no part in. While we're given indications of backroom politicking in the Kingsmoot we also see a very clear vision of each candidates ideas on their most pressing issues in a very public forum. With the LC election we see our clear stands in overheard private conversations and none of them are about the real issues facing the Watch. Jon clearly sees this going on as he points it out to Sam, yet Jon doesn't engage in it or stand against it.

is Jon unintentionally canvassing votes?

I don’t mean literally, as Jon’s name doesn’t come up as a candidate until Sam V. I’m speaking more to the significance of stepping in to train men. At the beginning of aGoT, most of the Watch dislikes Jon tremendously, as he was a bit of an elitist jerk to the boys. After Donal’s chastening, he atones by offering lessons in swordplay, leveling the playing field. This serves to win over the majority of boys so well, that by the time Sam shows up (in basically the next chapter), he has enough influence to step in on Sam’s behalf. We know Jon isn’t thinking in these terms, and his practice sessions are largely about relieving personal angst, but it is an activity that made others love him in the past.

true queens

Rag, in Jon X you made some observations about “true queens,” after Mance refers to Dalla as one in relation to her wisdom. We have a repetition of “true queen” here, in Jon’s observation of Mel’s role to Stannis. Had anything struck you here, as a continuation of the construction of a “true queen?”

a task for every tool

There are some pretty serious allegations against Jon:

“I know what you have heard. That I am a turncloak, and craven. That I slew my brother Qhorin Halfhand so the wildlings would spare my life. That I rode with Mance Rayder, and took a wildling wife.”

“Aye. All that, and more. You are a warg too, they say, a skinchanger who walks at night as a wolf.” King Stannis had a hard smile. “How much of it is true?”

“I had a direwolf, Ghost. I left him when I climbed the Wall near Greyguard, and have not seen him since. Qhorin Halfhand commanded me to join the wildlings. He knew they would make me kill him to prove myself, and told me to do whatever they asked of me. The woman was named Ygritte. I broke my vows with her, but I swear to you on my father’s name that I never turned my cloak.”

and Stannis seemingly shrugs them off rather cavalierly:

Stannis snorted. “I know Janos Slynt. And I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty. You have his look.” A big man, Stannis Baratheon towered over Jon, but he was so gaunt that he looked ten years older than he was. “I know more than you might think, Jon Snow. I know it was you who found the dragonglass dagger that Randyll Tarly’s son used to slay the Other.”

I really like the observation of Jon going back to what worked for him in GoT. His situation is a similar but warped version of his initial arrival so I think this fits well.

Regarding the "true queen" I don't see it as a continuation. Dalla was a true queen in the sense of Sansa's true knights. Mel is a true queen in the sense that Tyrion claimed Uncle Viserys the Hand was the true king. One speaks to the true or honorable purpose and the other speaks purely to the practical wielding of power absent the title. I see the two as polar opposites especially with Mel sharing a bed with Stannis and birthing shadows instead of heirs.

That's a very interesting take on Stannis. Reading through his responses to Jon and taking them literally or at face value, much of it is absurd. I always took his assertions of resembling Ned as more metaphorical. He claims to know Slynt so I took his bringing up knowing Ned to indicate more than a mere physical resemblance. He says Noye would make a better LC than any of these candidates and based on the details Stannis has he must know Noye exonerated Jon and put him in charge. Stannis has a good number of reasons to believe Jon beyond a family resemblance to Ned. As an aside I was always struck by his claim that Ned was not his friend. Ned thinks of Stannis in quite admirable and deeply respectful terms. I suppose that is the same way Stannis thinks of Ned here but Ned's thoughts seemed far warmer toward Stannis than his chilly recollections here.

What does jump out if one thinks about it is Davos. The good does not wash away the bad nor the bad the good. Stannis doesn't look to impose a Tormund bear story tax as punishment on Jon for Ygritte. This unbendable man of iron is being quite flexible in his offer to Jon. One could argue that Jon is in the Watch and it is the Watch and not the King that is supposed to judge him, but Winterfell is a far cry from losing the tips of your fingers or some other extremity. I think Stannis is a pragmatist and a realist for all his fanatical tendencies. His line to Jon, as you point out, is really a confession that he doesn't much care if his impression of Jon is correct or not-- he'll use the tool whether he's Ned 2.0 or a bastard, warg, and turncloak. Same is true for his silently agreeing with Mel's religious dogma here. Later he'll say that he's not burning anyone because half his army is unbelievers-- pray harder. My overall sense is that he's very flexible when it comes to military matters and Jon is a military asset that can bring the North.

[-Winterfellian-]

Great OP Ragnorak!

I particularly like the parallel you drew up between Robery and Stannis in relation to the Starks.

Just some random thoughts…

She’s beautiful, he thought... but there was something more than a little unsettling about red eyes. “my lady.”

Jon seems to refer to red eyes in general, not specifically Mel’s. It contrasts with him finding validation and comfort on Ghost’s red eyes in the next chapter. Is reminescent of the fire and blood/rubies and garnets symbolism we discussed previously.

About Stannis’ offer…

It’s not the walls that make a lord, it’s the man

Is significant that Stannis uses this phrase to lure Jon, yet both him and Mel fail to see that it is not the name that makes a Stark. Stannis’ offer demands a price of both Jon’s honor and Gods:

All he had to do...

... was forswear his vows again.

And this time it would not be a ruse. To claim his father’s castle, he must turn against his father’s gods.

If the Weirwood tree is the heart of Winterfell, then honor and the relation to the Old Gods seem to be at the heart of the Stark identity as personified by the Ned. And they both are part of the core of Jon’s identity, even if his is a bastard sort of honor. As Ragnorak pointed out, Jon’s desire for WF comes second to the love for his siblings as well as a desire for acceptance.

I find it interesting to compare Robb’s will to Stannis’ offer. Robb chose Jon because he was more of a Stark than some distant cousin from the Vale. For Robb is was not blood or a title that made the name, but the man. The name he offered Jon was only a validation for the identity/qualities displayed by the latter. In the case of the will, the Stark name becomes subordinate to the identity, whereas with the offer is it the other way around. This, I find is at the core of Jon's struggle with the offer latter on. Stannis can make him a Stark in name, at the price of relinquishing the values/qualities that shape the meaning of said name.

Lots of great posts everyone!

[Ragnorak]

I noticed that too Ragnorak, and Melisandre doesn't see Jon in her fires till Stannis is far away from the Wall- either courting the hill-folk or marching on WF. Right from Mel's first meeting with Jon, she acts seductively. She sends the Queen's guards away and travels up the Wall with him alone. She holds her hand against his cheek and laughs when he asks if she's cold. Jon is a total stranger to her and he's being called a murderer, traitor, warg, craven by his brothers and Melisandre acts like that with him?!

During Stannis's chat, she again reaches out and places her hand against his arm. A paragraph later, she stands so close he can feel the warmth of her breath. It's very evident how attracted she is to Jon from the first time they meet.

Stannis also acts a bit bizarre with Jon because in the last scene, he puts his hand on his shoulder and gives him the spiel about WF. Up till that moment, we don't see Stannis touching people and making physical contact with other folks while talking to them. I read through all of Davos's chapters to see if my inkling was right and Stannis never touches Davos but one time. That was when he made him Hand and he had ordered him to kneel. Stannis touched him when he offered Davos his hand to help him stand back up.

So, both Mel and Stannis go out of their way to make a physical connection with Jon, although I think Stannis's seems platonic, almost a fatherly kind of touch? Whatever Stannis reasoning's were for holding Jon's shoulder, that gentle behavior is a HUGE anomaly for him.

One other thing I noticed about their initial meeting was that Stannis "towered over Jon". I often wondered if Jon had grown several inches in the year he'd been at the Wall because of the strange bouts of inhumane strength he exhibits. But it seems he hasn't gotten much taller and Sam doesn't note his girth growing, so I'm back to thinking his strength is like his warging- a gift from the Old Gods/Bloodraven.

Mel's physical contact is fairly consistent with her general behavior. Stannis however is very much not a physical contact king of guy. Great catch!

I think this really throws the whole scene into a new perspective. Is it a friendship gesture of sorts? Does Stannis see bits of himself in Jon? Father died early, no mother, glory seeking brother who became king while the younger brother was relegated to humble and unrewarded duty? Is it a fatherly gesture for the son he never had? Does he see or feel potential for a friendship with Jon akin to Robert's with Ned? If so would that play into the true King who rules his friends? Very, very interesting observation!

Stannis doesn't hug his daughter, is said to shun his wife's bed and he hasn't even seen Val who is said to be this incredibly attractive figure. He definitely has issues with intimacy.

[Lummel]

...So I guess what I'm saying is that they were talking/ thinking at cross purposes. It was a missed opportunity to have a frank discussion about the impending apocalypse and how to deal with it in broad strokes, that imploded in part due to Stannis' jumping the gun in terms of offering Winterfell (not to mention burning the damn godswood). I'm disappointed in a way that Jon never thinks about the bigger picture in his decision making-- it's about whether he feels right taking this in light of his grief and birth status, and then about the godswood. I don't begrudge him his grief or think he came to the wrong decision wrt what Stannis pitched, but I wish his thoughts weighed that grief against the larger picture.

I think that cross purposes conversation is great, it sums up the characters. Stannis has poor people skills, and a poor sense of strategy. He totally misjudges Jon and doesn't understand what moves him, equally just as with the Old Man we see how Jon thinks and how powerful those emotional connections are for him - he is the man of feeling.

The Long Night is a problem, I mean the phrase isn't neutral it is part of a model, or a precedent coming from R'hllorism and is different from recognising the Others as a threat. I feel we should be careful here. Jon has some empirical experience of what is happening beyond the Wall. Stannis however has a theoretical understanding from a R'hllorista viewpoint which requires certain conditions and certain actors to play certain roles - Jon is almost certainly ignorant of what that requires and in a sense Stannis and Melisandre are teaching him about it here. Burning the weirwoods and having the Wildlings accept the Lord of Light as their saviour is a precondition for victory for S&M. This isn't the way Jon sees things.

...It seems that Stannis had considered to spare Mance, provided that he'd agree to his terms, bend the knee etc. "The law is the law", but not always... Another instance where Stannis is more flexible than people around him think.

-----------

This chapter is mostly about temptation. A promise to get his secret and "guilty" wish, in exchange for his vows...

It really depends on how you read Stannis. From what I see Stannis is perfectly prepared to be flexible if he sees some political advantage in doing so. Three is a very strong pattern, it wouldn't surprise me if we could find more. There have been quite a lot of suggestions for Daenerys' three even though her narrative is still continuing.

...It's seemingly a contradiction that Jon's strategic lucidity of the latter chapter does not appear when Stannis makes his offer at the top of the Wall...

At the very least, Stannis stretches the rules. Titles of royalty don’t normally pass to the family of the queen and none should be more determined about this than Stannis (see Cersei Lannister). No one can question the decision of a king, but, as a just man, Stannis would have to base the promotion to a lordship on blood or on merit (see Davos’ lordship). But Val has no particular merit and is, a priori, just the sister of the wife of a defeated king-beyond-the-Wall. Since she is not recognized as a princess by the free folk, of what use is she to Stannis? Either Stannis has grasped something that we haven't or he is again misguided...

Later Jon will be a Lord and not just a Watchman, here also Stannis sets off Jon's emotional side, he's not going to be lucid and rational then.

I tend to read ASOIAF with the view that the characters are all flawed in different ways. I don't see Stannis as being an exception. His offer is based around what he thinks a bastard should want and what he politically needs. This doesn't reflect either what Jon does want or could accept nor necessarily what would work in the North. One can imagine that Stannis has some special knowledge that leads him to fixate on Val, but I don't see a need to do so. He is looking to do what Tywin does in marrying Sansa to Tyrion, or Kevan in having Lancel marry Ami Frey and adding the Darry Ploughman to the quaterings of their arms or even what Alexander the Great did in having his generals marry Persian wives - he's looking to build a symbolic connection between Northerns and Wildlings. Come in, be part of my Kingdom, not as inferiors, but as equals, part of the family. Perhaps he even imagines that because she was related to the Mance by marriage that she will have a special aura for the Wildings.

Is Stannis a just man? He certainly isn't just a just man. He is also a political animal and struggling for victory in the game of thrones - his belief in his religious purpose is going to have some influence here.

...During Stannis's chat, she again reaches out and places her hand against his arm. A paragraph later, she stands so close he can feel the warmth of her breath. It's very evident how attracted she is to Jon from the first time they meet.

...

So, both Mel and Stannis go out of their way to make a physical connection with Jon, although I think Stannis's seems platonic, almost a fatherly kind of touch? Whatever Stannis reasoning's were for holding Jon's shoulder, that gentle behavior is a HUGE anomaly for him...

Is Melisandre attracted to him, or is it a more calculated seduction? Hadn't noticed Stannis touching Jon - good catch, and no, he's not exactly the tactile type :laugh:

Early Clash, maybe i'm misremembering and it's in Brans chapter and arrives at winterfell, i don't have books on hand

It mark's the end of summer, not nec the one or type(?) that says winter has arrived

OK, the autumn bird

It has been a while since we looked at the Christian symbolism that seems prevalent in Jon's arc...

Since Jon XII is my chapter I will commit to mentioning the Kingsmoot and comparing the elections. I have no idea what the third temptation could be. Perhaps it is false comparison. I'm reminded of the Feldmann essays were he took temptation as the central motive, except that the temptations we see in his arc are different ones. I suppose I see temptation as rooted in Jon's identity, what person is he, what kind of a person does he want to be. There are I suppose choices there, different ideal versions of himself to aspire to or to hesitate to admit to himself.

I agree that much of Stannis' pitch is absurd - but this is part of his character. Varys, iirc, warns that Stannis on Dragonstone has been collecting more swords than seashells yet when we meet Stannis we learn that all he has succeeded in doing is hiring mercenaries using the awesome financial strength of Dragonstone. Melisandre, presumably, is saying 'go on, you can do it, you are the chosen one of the lord of light, it will be allright on the night' and look he actually comes closeish to success despite having a completely inadequate resource base. Stannis is I feel strongly impressed by the power of R'hllor / Melisandre's magic, so practicalities aren't so important.

Yet "I have come to the same realisation" given the Others there is some basis for faith and empiricism to have an alliance here. :dunno:

Ha! Yes I suppose Bob was also a desperate contender for his own throne, it was The Ned or Tywin afterall...

...I find it interesting to compare Robb’s will to Stannis’ offer. Robb chose Jon because he was more of a Stark than some distant cousin from the Vale. For Robb is was not blood or a title that made the name, but the man. The name he offered Jon was only a validation for the identity/qualities displayed by the latter. In the case of the will, the Stark name becomes subordinate to the identity, whereas with the offer is it the other way around. This, I find is at the core of Jon's struggle with the offer latter on. Stannis can make him a Stark in name, at the price of relinquishing the values/qualities that shape the meaning of said name...

Yes it is back to the issue of identity which merges over into discussion of whether Jon is a Targaryen, Stark or Snow that Fire Eater recently opened up. What I find interesting in looking at Jon's arc as a whole is how irrelevant the biological father is and perhaps the whole mystery of Jon's parentage. I mean it is a mystery, but Jon's identity is securely bound up in his winterfell upbringing. That is home. The Ned is his Father figure and a hugely important role model. His siblings/cousins/half-siblings are incredibly dear to him. Can that really be shaken or disturbed by the revelation of his parentage?

Some other notes I made

oh Jon's teaching style compared to Thorne's - we see him encouraging, giving notes for improvement rather than mocking Satin

The half a dozen Queen's men - Melisandre using rabbit's ear - the trappings of power

Stannis wants "all you have to give" - a bit dangerous

Stannis believes Jon because he looks like The Ned, given the debate over Jon's parentage a bit of irony from GRRM here?

Jon admits to finding Val attractive, well comely, he doesn't go quite so far as to admit to finding her personally attractive

"Beauty can be treacherous" says Stannis while standing next to Melisandre. Hmmm...

Why does Jon think that Rattleshirt is particularly treacherous compared to the likes of Tormund?

"I am a man of the Night's Watch" - a denial of personal identity

Self denial over Winterfell too, denial of his dream

[Lummel]

...I think this really throws the whole scene into a new perspective. Is it a friendship gesture of sorts? Does Stannis see bits of himself in Jon? Father died early, no mother, glory seeking brother who became king while the younger brother was relegated to humble and unrewarded duty? Is it a fatherly gesture for the son he never had? Does he see or feel potential for a friendship with Jon akin to Robert's with Ned? If so would that play into the true King who rules his friends? Very, very interesting observation!...

Ha! Like that...

[Ibbison from Ibben]

This chapter is mostly about temptation. A promise to get his secret and "guilty" wish, in exchange for his vows.

Three times Jon has faced temptation that he associates with oathbreaking and treason, and I think there is a strong parallel with Daenerys' three treasons:

Once for blood: when he attempts to leave the Watch and join Robb marching south for Ned

Once for gold: this one. Personal gain, metaphorically. Winterfell, a name, a lordship, a beautiful woman...

Once for love: that led to his "death".

Only, he's the one to potentially commit the act of "treason" - it's all about choices, nothing set in stone...

I wonder if there are more "threes" in Dany's HotU prophecy that could also apply to Jon.

Really great catch!

ETA - And I think you are correct in not including his wilding adventures as one of the temptations. He did that under orders. He was even doing a fine job of resisting Ygritte until breaking that part of his oath became an issue in keeping up his deception.

I would go as far as saying that Stannis' offer does not make political sense. Allocating Winterfell to an apostate bastard and his wildling consort would antagonize the north, or so it seems after ADwD. Has Stannis any idea of the politics of the north at this point?

I agree with you here. The northern lords might very well lop off Jon's head at the first opportunity if he uses a dispensation from Stannis as an excuse to desert the NW. Burning the godswood is such an obvious non-starter from a northern public opinion standpoint I have to wonder if Stannis really expected Jon to accept. Stannis seems to be incredibly vulnerable to being dominated by an adviser. He makes bad decisions when Mel has influence over him, good decisions when Davos or Jon does.

I find it interesting to compare Robb’s will to Stannis’ offer. Robb chose Jon because he was more of a Stark than some distant cousin from the Vale. For Robb is was not blood or a title that made the name, but the man. The name he offered Jon was only a validation for the identity/qualities displayed by the latter. In the case of the will, the Stark name becomes subordinate to the identity, whereas with the offer is it the other way around. This, I find is at the core of Jon's struggle with the offer latter on. Stannis can make him a Stark in name, at the price of relinquishing the values/qualities that shape the meaning of said name.

Very well stated.

It's a good thing Stannis is a lord. He would make an awful salesman. He doesn't understand what makes people tick, and really doesn't care. The only person who fully buys in to Stannis' leadership style is Davos.

[bemused]

Yikes ! I have many posts to catch up with here, but I've had this slo-o-owly building on my notebook while life called me away..

Back to the OP on this chapter.... I like the use of Stannis' and Jon's style of dress expressing important things about them..Jon's hooded cloak making it difficult to see or read his face clearly.. his bastard sword slung on his back , which we know is Valyrian steel ... Some things about him are hidden, but behind him (or backing him up) is a lethal weapon , rare itself , rare in strength and endurance. Valyrian steel has historic and mythic fame. It takes a very fine edge and holds it better than most.The sword is designated "bastard" because it incorporates design features of more than one weapon .. apparently neither one thing or the other.. but really , it is it's own thing. It's versatile. It bridges the gap between more well known designs. If we think about it, the first bastard sword must have been designed to fit a specific need.... Perhaps we're meant to see Jon as an embodiment of Longclaw ( or the reverse) .. and that he is ,himself ,the weapon designed for the tasks at hand.

Stannis' "power suit" has both benign and intimidating connotations. The NW black can imply that he shares goals with the Watch, has taken up their cause ( wears it close to his heart ?).. but the Kingly part of his attire (his cloak) envelops all else . He's completely wrapped up in it , so to speak. ;) We know he's willing to impose his will , his stamp on the Watch if they're not willing to at least get along with him. And , speaking of hearts , his pin ( the fiery heart) could hold a tragic promise , if we remember "fire consumes".

Something about Jon....When Stannis is questioning Jon about the wildlings, I think Jon's answers are good assessments of Mance, Rattleshirt and Tormund , bringing to mind what Benjen says to Jon back in AGoT " You don't miss much , do you ,Jon? " ... That's not to say he doesn't miss anything, but really, not much. He may continually be recalling Ygritte's "You know nothing" but he's observant , and able to figure out a lot , and learn as he goes. I think he generally "gets" much more than he misses. Again , something worth keeping in mind in coming events. And reason not to assume he leaps to conclusions.

Though the things he misses are sometimes potentially dangerous to himself,or sometimes result in missed personal opportunities, it can be at least partly attributed to the fact that Jon isn't motivated by self-aggrandizement.

A couple of points for Bran Vras .. Firstly , although this does go ahead , it also refers back to a Bran chapter....I don't think we know that the young weirwood at the Nightfort gets cut down. I can't find that being mentioned .. No, you wouldn't want a tree growing in the kitchen , but neither would you want a stump in the middle of a floor likely to see a lot of traffic. It was a young tree. If it was simply dug up , or uprooted and cast aside ... well, they are all but indestuctible. It could be replanted.. it could take root itself, in a pile of rubble ( ask any gardener ;) ) .. We just might see this tree again. ( Move it to CB, guys!)

Secondly , you said :

--Most interesting is Stannis’ insistence that Jon marries Val. I can’t see why Stannis would want a wildling lady to rule Winterfell. He does not need the wildlings, which will hardly count in the game of thrones. It seems to me that Stannis wants that wildling lady to rule Winterfell. Indeed, Val is neither willing nor pliable. Why not find another woman among the wildling captives? Could Stannis have learned something about Val from Mance? That brings us back to Dalla’s lineage.--

At this point, Stannis definitely thinks he needs the wildlings to swell his army. He sees it as his right to legitimize Jon and his right to arrange marriages , and especially the marriage of a captive. At first ,he takes Val to be Mance's queen , then sees her as a princess ,and plainly tells Jon he sees the marriage as a way of absorbing the wildlings into the realm. If, because of her ,the wildlings give their loyalty /fealty to WF and Jon , and he in turn owes fealty to Stannis , it's all to the good for Stannis' ambitions.

ETA: At this point , I don't think Stannis understands the Northern Westerosi much better than he understands the wildlings.

If I'm thinking along the right lines for Dalla and Val..

I find it a bit amusing to think that neither Stannis nor Jon have a true picture of Val ,but both may be partly right. Jon is right when he says that Val should not be considered a princess by virtue of her relation to Mance or Dalla, while failing to suspect that she holds a special place in wildling society in her own right. Stannis is right in that she occupies an elite position .. even if he calls it by the wrong name, for the wrong reasons. I think it's very possible that much of Val's different use of language can be attributable to education .. yes, even an oral one .. not necessarily her lineage , or not lineage alone. ( And it's worth referring to Jarl's use of language - also unmarked by any quaint or "low " patterns ). If wildling culture is largely a meritocracy, then Val's cachet will rest on what she does , more than on who she is.

That will come up again later, but for now I think the "True Queen" comments do hint at some sort of an equivalency between Mel and Dalla . Mance says , “It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.” He calls Dalla a wise woman ( which has particular connotations in Wildling society) "a true Queen " , not "my Queen " or even "my true Queen".. So though he gives her a fond smile, he's expressing more than just she's his wife and therefore his queen , and to my mind , more than just an expression of his love. It implies she's everything a Queen should be.. worthy of respect, wise , mindful of the needs of her people, sharing his rule, not merely a consort ... Even in the throes of childbirth ,Dalla takes part in the later discussion with Jon on an equal footing with Mance . She comments on matters to do with magic / knowledge ... Mance, on the practical and military aspects.

Going further back , when they meet , Mance tells Jon "..treat her as you would any queen , she bears my child." At first reading , it seems the two phrases are related , but as we learn , in wildling culture,Dalla being a queen can have nothing to do with carrying Mance's heir , since the child won't automatically be his heir... I think we should also take note that when Mance was injured ,they sought out a " wise woman ".. who .. " did some healing " .. ( my underline ) .. In hindsight, I think "some" is a clue , perhaps implying that "healing" was secondary to "wise woman" - a side line , if you will.

Skip to Jon's thoughts about Mel..“We shall await you atop the Wall,” said Melisandre. We, Jon heard, not he. It’s as they say. This is his true queen, not the one he left at Eastwatch. ... his (Stannis') true queen , as opposed to Selyse , his legal queen. Everyone at the Wall has been comparing Mel to Selyse. By again using "true queen" , GRRM subtly invites us to compare her to Dalla.. Dalla is really Mance's queen . Mel is not Stannis'. - No equivalency. ...But both are present in their Lord's councils and contribute to the discussion.- Equivalent... Both speak with authority on matters of magic , and ancient lore ( Azor Ahai prophecy for Mel , while Dalla quotes The Horned Lord ) - Equivalent , I think. ..Ummm..there is the matter of pregnancy for both , in some form ;).. and in neither case was the "child" an heir..

Because Stannis at first confuses Dalla with Val , I doubt Mance has said much about Val to Stannis... But because they're "sisters" , when Val stays in the tent during Mance's later discussion with Jon , Mance's words can be misleading.. “Dalla’s time is near,” Mance explained. “She and Val will stay. They know what I mean to say.” ... Val is not just staying for Dalla. The other leaders are waiting just outside the tent flap , and she could have been sent with them and still have been called at a moments notice. She stays because she and Dalla know Mance's plans and thoughts. Val, too ,is privy to his councils. The sisters ( or "sisters") should be compared in future. ( Oddly, there's no physical description of Dalla , apart from being pregnant, while Val's beauty is mentioned repeatedly. We have no idea if there's any family resemblance between them )...That's for later consideration , but for now, Mance could have very good reasons for not telling Stannis anything about Val , and even for not correcting his misperceptions. As a "royal" captive, Val will enjoy some protection from the regular members of the Watch and Queen's men and Stannis doesn't intend to marry her off to just anyone - so that problem could take a while in coming .. (And if I'm on the right track... If she should turn out to be an old religion equivalent to Mel, she could potentially be in great danger , considering Mel's and R'hllor's lack of religious tolerance. )

Stannis' reasons for brushing aside the charges against Jon are actually not too bad , IMO . I agree there's an assessment implied is Stannis' questions to Jon, coupled with his previous acquaintance with Slynt , Ned and Noye. But he still does want to use Jon. Stannis is all for using the tool to hand, and further , as we see with "Lightbringer " , if he doesn't have the tool he needs or wants , he's willing to fake it.

I give both Jon and Stannis a bit of a pass for not getting more into detail about plans to oppose the Others , the logistics of settling the gift , etc.

Stannis needs to recruit more wildlings for his aims of the moment, and isn't sure how to do it . He's really hampered by the religious aspect of the terms he offers , although he later shows signs of developing some flexibility. I agree Stannis is not a religious man at heart and is willing to go along with Mel because she gets results ,one way or another..and he knows some of what she does is smoke and mirrors. But because he's experienced having visions himself ( The Fist) that panned out, I think he'll be more open to supernatural experiences in future , even if they come from a different source.

Jon gets his pass because he has no idea he'll be in a position to put any plans into effect. He's unquestionably tempted by Stannis , but his allegiance to the old gods , which has steadily been growing stronger , prevents him from making the easy choice.

Now to catch up...

[-Winterfellian-]

@Lamprey@Winterfellian. I feel it is useful to gather what we know about Val and Dalla. We will learn more around Jon X, ADwD. Already with what we know as of ASoS, questions can be asked. The grand total of five sentences uttered by Dalla is enough to make apparent that her language is more polished than what we hear from Ygritte, Tormund, Rattleshirt, Craster etc. (Val will even use the social marker "my Lord" instead of the common "m’lord" in ADwD). Since Mance married Dalla recently, and since Dalla’s sister is at Mance’s side, one wonders where is the rest of their family, their clan etc. Moreover, Dalla is evidently privy to every council of Mance, even those from which Tormund is excluded. I can’t identify a single environment beyond the Wall from where Val and Dalla could come from (at least with what we know from ASoS).

@Bran Vras I pretty much agree with Lummel on this one. Stannis' reason for using Val is very straightforward. Is basically the same logic he applied to figured out that dressing up Jon in Stark colors is enough to win him the North. It reverts to what I mentioned earlier about him and Mel not being able to understand that power trappings are not universal and what may work for the South will not necessarily work for a culture like that of the wildings or even the North. Even if it turns out that there is something special about Dalla, Stannis’ reasons for fixating on her are purely political I feel.

What if Stannis started this with an appeal to the foe common to Watch, realm and wildling at the outset? What if he started with the “cart before the horse” speech, went on to speak of the need to unify wildling and North in service to fighting the Long Night, and then made his pitch to Jon? I wonder if Jon would have seen this differently, and may have had more of an opportunity to negotiate, i.e. “if you’re true concern is unifying against this threat, then creating barriers to this unity, such as forced conversion goes against this premise,” and so forth. I’m extremely conflicted about whether rejecting Stannis’ offer was the wisest course (I believe it was with the stated conditions, but I wonder if there’s some broader sense in what Stannis proposed in terms of a figurehead to lead these factions).

What if Stannis had made his appeal in a different light? Then he wouldn’t be Stannis I imagine ;)

Speaking on a broad sense regarding the bolded, I imagine that it would require a unification whose way to appealing others is based on a common cause similar to what you are pointing out. Despite Stannnis' best efforts, he is appealing for a unification under one man, hence why he can't fathom that a coalescence can be formed without the involving factions having to sacrifice any major cultural, religious, etc. Affiliations

Stannis and Mel's strategy at this point is for the Realm to unify under one savior aka Stannis who will embody the cause- fighting/surviving in the LN

In comparison, in Jon's later onion or apple speech, he appeals to the cause and unawarely he set himself up in the eyes of others as a sort of figure head for said cause. Could Stannis and Mel have the cart before the horse again?

Yes it is back to the issue of identity which merges over into discussion of whether Jon is a Targaryen, Stark or Snow that Fire Eater recently opened up. What I find interesting in looking at Jon's arc as a whole is how irrelevant the biological father is and perhaps the whole mystery of Jon's parentage. I mean it is a mystery, but Jon's identity is securely bound up in his winterfell upbringing. That is home. The Ned is his Father figure and a hugely important role model. His siblings/cousins/half-siblings are incredibly dear to him. Can that really be shaken or disturbed by the revelation of his parentage?

I agree completely with the bold one. I have a feeling Robb's will is going to make more of an impact.

It's a good thing Stannis is a lord. He would make an awful salesman. He doesn't understand what makes people tick, and really doesn't care. The only person who fully buys in to Stannis' leadership style is Davos.

:lol:

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, Ragnorak

is Jon unintentionally canvassing votes?

I don’t mean literally, as Jon’s name doesn’t come up as a candidate until Sam V. I’m speaking more to the significance of stepping in to train men. At the beginning of aGoT, most of the Watch dislikes Jon tremendously, as he was a bit of an elitist jerk to the boys. After Donal’s chastening, he atones by offering lessons in swordplay, leveling the playing field. This serves to win over the majority of boys so well, that by the time Sam shows up (in basically the next chapter), he has enough influence to step in on Sam’s behalf.

No offense, bumps, but I don't think the new recruits count as most of the Watch. Most of the Watch didn't hate Jon just the new recruits who fought him in the yard.

Going further back , when they meet , Mance tells Jon "..treat her as you would any queen , she bears my child." At first reading , it seems the two phrases are related , but as we learn , in wildling culture,Dalla being a queen can have nothing to do with carrying Mance's heir , since the child won't automatically be his heir... I think we should also take note that when Mance was injured ,they sought out a " wise woman ".. who .. " did some healing " .. ( my underline ) .. In hindsight, I think "some" is a clue , perhaps implying that "healing" was secondary to "wise woman" - a side line , if you will.

So the wise woman who healed Mance may have been Dalla.

[Mithras]

Mance says, “It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.” He calls Dalla a wise woman ( which has particular connotations in Wildling society). She comments on matters to do with magic / knowledge ... Mance, on the practical and military aspects.

I think we should also take note that when Mance was injured ,they sought out a " wise woman ".. who .. " did some healing " .. ( my underline ) .. In hindsight, I think "some" is a clue , perhaps implying that "healing" was secondary to "wise woman" - a side line , if you will.

So the wise woman who healed Mance may have been Dalla.

This is what maegi means according to MMD:

"You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise."

MMD was also a healer (among other things). If Dalla healed Mance and sewed his cloak with that silk from Asshai, can we assume that she really had some training in Asshai like MDD? That silk was collected from a shipwreck from Asshai we are told. What business could a ship from Asshai possibly have in Frozen Shore?

Later, Mel will also call Dalla a wise woman.

[bemused]

Fire eater .. Yes, I think the wise woman's daughter who healed Mance may well have been Dalla .. but I wasn't going to raise that here , necessarily..or yet. It's not a totally wild guess , I have my reasons ( as you may know, If you visited my Val and Tormund thread).. I can give them , if anyone wants them , but they might fit in better later when Val starts taking a more active role ..

For the here and now, I wanted to point out that woods witch and wise woman may not be synonymous, particularly if GRRM is leaning more to the Norse model than the Celtic in drawing wildling culture and religious practices ( not the nature of the gods ).Then woods witch implies someone who deals more with the medicinal needs of the people. She may well do some "seeing" ( like Mother Mole),or not , but her greatest expertise is in healing...

If a wise woman is more akin to the Vala, then her greatest expertise is as a "seer". Greatly revered , she can travel about safely from tribe to tribe, unmolested .. tribes or individuals can "hire " her to answer their questions, etc. If she comes across a chieftain she thinks ( or sees) will go far,or be good for the people, she may stick with him ,advising him when to do battle , where to do battle, where to locate things, places to move the tribe etc., helping him on his way to becoming as great as she has seen he could be.. She may marry him , and give up her own travelling ways. Singing specific songs( according to the type of question ) and / or sitting out alone in the wild all night are rituals used to bring on visions. She knows a lot about ritual. She may know some healing, or not , but it's not her greatest skill. ( So the fact that Val wanted to find the midwife, doesn't rule her out from this possibility)

I'll go a bit farther before I quit .. ;) since some of the characters are no longer with us and won't be developing further.

I think Mance and Dalla fit the "leader and seer" pattern . And Val and " her pet" Jarl did as well. The Magnar calls Jarl "Mance's pet" and here, I think we may see Mance taking a hand in grooming a possible heir.. adapting the NW practice of grooming promising recruits for leadership to fit wildling society . Jarl would still have to earn his following , but if he could be prepared as far as possible, potentially , he could hold the tribes together if / when Mance should die .That covers Dalla and Jarl..Val will come into sharper focus later. ( Jarl's death creates a vacuum)

ETA: Lamprey..I think the Asshai connection is possibly a red silk herring ;) The silk , and the cog were from the time of Mance's healer's grandmother.. passed down mother to daughter to the third generation ( magic 3) ... What stands out to me is that " It was the greatest treasure she had , and her gift to me." , to quote Mance... Why? Wouldn't it be more normal for the patient to reward the healer ?.. And to give her greatest treasure to a crow ? She must have felt there was something special about him ( and he has no telling nickname like Longspear Ryk )... One of the reasons I want to ID her as Dalla , who Mance just happens to meet on his return from WF.. ( and then goes on to seek the Horn of Joramun in the Frostfangs).

ETA again : The silk was from Asshai ..the cog might have been from anywhere, trading goods from one place to another ,not necessarily picked up at their point of origin. Ships can get blown far off course in a storm.

Random questions for another day, or things to watch for in TWoW...It's been noted that one thing noticeably missing so far , is a wildling prophecy. Is there one ? Who would be aware of it ? Does it feature a hero with some connection to the Wall?

But back to Jon ...

[DrunkSister]

The thing with Jon's displays of strength is that he is not the only one who has them (it was discussed on the heretical reread thread which is now dead -_-, we used to call them 'elk incidents' because of the first time this was noticed)

There is Robb in that chapter where he goes hunting with Bran and wildlings take Bran as a hostage. He leaves Bran in one moment and next we see him he has an elk across the horses back. Elks are heavy and, according to other posters, he should have had trouble lifting it on his horse without help because of blood.

Rickon in the crypts grabs a sword and slashes at maester Luwin. We are talking about a toddler, swords are what 2-4 pounds heavy and they are long, IDK how tall Rickon is but I found this feat remarkable.

Then there is Arya in that battle where Yoren was killed. People remarked that there is no way she should have been able to fight grown men no matter how fast she is, and that a child her age and size should have had trouble even stabbing to the required depth, especially if there was armour involved.

Bran while in coma is stronger if the window is opened so that he can hear his wolf.

So, it could be that Jon is stronger because he is a warg.

(Oh god what am I doing here I have an exam to study for, yikes)

[Ragnorak]

I was pondering Butterbumps take on Stannis thinking of Jon as a tool combined with Load of Long Lake's astute observation of possibly the only gesture of physical affection of any kind that we see Stannis make. My impression is that it strengthens the Robert/Ned parallel. Robert was also a bit honest with Ned in the tool department when he said that he would let Ned retire if he was honoring him and that he was making Ned work while Robert drank and whored himself to an early grave. Looking forward Jon does act somewhat in the capacity of Hand with his advice to Stannis about Northern issues and politics and how to win the Mountain Clans. Stannis will listen while Robert ignored Ned. There are elements of Cersei in both Mel and Selyse relative to a Robert/Cersei and a Ned/Cersei. We also have the Rhaegar-like Mance with his son to compare to Robert's victory with Jon making a plea on the child's behalf. So we have parallels to the end of the Rebellion and the more recent events in Kings Landing.

My impression from the tool for every task parallel is an even more negative take on Robert. He and Ned were childhood friends and in comparison Stannis seems to act on his limited affection more than we ever see Robert do. The idea of Stannis having a vague friendship inclination toward Jon makes me want to look for some pattern comparing Stannis heading Jon to Ned being ignored by Robert. Is there something similar to marriage for love vs. marriage for politics here? Is friendship a bad political thing for kings? Is this tied to ruling your friends? Ned clearly obeyed Robert so there has to be more to it on the king's part than holding sway over friends. There are plenty of future events that fit this parallel that we can address when they arise. This scene seems like it would be most directly parallel to Robert's offer of Hand of the King in the crypts of Winterfell. Anything jump at comparing that scene to this one?

[butterbumps!]

What if Stannis had made his appeal in a different light? Then he wouldn’t be Stannis I imagine ;)

Speaking on a broad sense regarding the bolded, I imagine that it would require a unification whose way to appealing others is based on a common cause similar to what you are pointing out. Despite Stannnis' best efforts, he is appealing for a unification under one man, hence why he can't fathom that a coalescence can be formed without the involving factions having to sacrifice any major cultural, religious, etc. Affiliations

Stannis and Mel's strategy at this point is for the Realm to unify under one savior aka Stannis who will embody the cause- fighting/surviving in the LN

In comparison, in Jon's later onion or apple speech, he appeals to the cause and unawarely he set himself up in the eyes of others as a sort of figure head for said cause. Could Stannis and Mel have the cart before the horse again?

That's what I'm wondering, too.

Stannis' endgame isn't really to fight the Long Night; it's to fight the Long Night in order to become King. As a broad strategy toward kingship, I think there's sense to this, especially because he's been convinced that he's the reborn ancient hero supposed to lead the battle for the Dawn, and will therefore prevail, and the people will love him for it finally recognizing his authority.

I don't think there's a problem with this holistically-- to see the Long Night as a stepping stone to the throne. I mean, at least someone with an army is paying attention to this, and the fact that he's seeking to become king via feats and responsibility rather than appeal to blood is a progressive idea.

But on the other hand, it means that his priorities are perhaps a bit skewed from the important matters. That is, if kingship is the goal and the Long Night a vehicle through which to achieve that, it puts the focus on kingship, so that the Long Night is just a means to that end. The question that concerns me is whether seeing the Long Night as a means to a different end will compromise the treatment of the Long Night-- that is, to what extent is Stannis willing to do what's needed for the Long Night when what's needed for that is seemingly incompatible with the kingship goal?

I think we see some of that incompatibility manifest in this chapter. Part of the issue is that Jon and Stannis really are working at cross purposes. The Watch is the institution that was created in order to deal with the Long Night, but Stannis isn't part of it. Instead, Stannis believes that AA is the hero to deal with the supernatural crisis, and that he fulfills this role. The Watch and R'hllor have two very different ideas on what's needed for this crisis, some of which may be downright incompatible (old gods vs R'hllor, which is a problem if R'hllor isn't the "right" religion when godswood begin to burn).

Despite the fact that Jon's part of the institution designed precisely to handle the Others, Stannis wants to use him for his political dirty-work. He wants to remove Jon from the Watch to clean up the North and stand behind him as he leads the battle for the Dawn. It's an odd swap: Stannis has no legal obligation to an institution limiting his jurisdiction, and can therefore step in with the north to set them up for the Long Night, but he believes he's the chosen leader of the battle, and can't get people to follow him until he proves himself there. So he wants to remove Jon, who has sworn an oath defending against the same enemy, in order to gain the political support Stannis thinks he can't get without a Northern ally that will allow Stannis to perform these feats that will win the love of the people.

I think it's a stupid idea, even without speculating which institution is "right" in terms of battling the enemy. The plan strikes me as Stannis' trying to take an easy, uncreative route. He (probably rightly) assumes that the North will not automatically follow him, so he wants a complacent lord in place with ostensibly more political clout behind him. He's putting his eggs into the basket of impressing them via Long Night heroics, and just resigns himself to the notion that they won't follow him until he shows them his AA routine. But he knows that there are currently invaders plaguing the North (the Ironborn), and doesn't think that by dealing with that problem, perhaps the North will be won over (which is the Davos model he just adopted in the Long Night). No, instead he wants Jon to sort that out for him, who ostensibly will have the people's love, and thinks that through Jon, the Northmen will be at his side, willing to follow. Except that cleaning up the Northern mess would make the people love Jon, not Stannis. He doesn't apply the Davos model to new problems, which I find a bit frustrating.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

This scene seems like it would be most directly parallel to Robert's offer of Hand of the King in the crypts of Winterfell. Anything jump at comparing that scene to this one?

Ned accepted Robert's offer out of duty, friendship, a little guilt, and a little fear. The original "southern ambitions" were Rickard's. After Aerys executed/murdered Rickard and Brandon, Ned found himself leading a rebellion both for rightful vengeance and to save his own life. He had no choice. And once he helped win the rebellion, he went home. Robert tells him, "You helped me win the Iron Throne, now help me keep it," and Ned sees some justice in Robert's claim on him. He's left everything to Jon Arryn up 'till now; it's Ned's turn to step up to the plate. There's also the need to investigate Arryn's death. And yes, humiliating Robert by turning him down could be dangerous, as Catelyn points out.

Stannis has no claim on Jon. Jon's sworn duty is to the NW, and all of Westerosi law and tradition supports that. Yes, Stannis helped the Watch, but that was his duty. All Stannis can do is tempt Jon, but Stannis is a poor tempter. The strings he attaches make it very easy for Jon to refuse. The only reason Stannis even comes close to succeeding is because Jon thinks Slynt might win the LC election.

[Mithras]

About Samwell's indifference to Florents:

“My lord.” The voice made Jon glance back in surprise. Samwell Tarly was on his feet. The fat boy wiped his sweaty palms against his tunic. “Might I… might I go as well? To say my words at this heart tree?”

“Does House Tarly keep the old gods too?” Mormont asked.

“No, my lord,” Sam replied in a thin, nervous voice. The high officers frightened him, Jon knew, the Old Bear most of all. “I was named in the light of the Seven at the sept on Horn Hill, as my father was, and his father, and all the Tarlys for a thousand years.”

“Why would you forsake the gods of your father and your House?” wondered Ser Jaremy Rykker.

“The Night’s Watch is my House now,” Sam said. “The Seven have never answered my prayers. Perhaps the old gods will.”

Sam was scared to talk against Mormont before this. He could not say a word without having stutters. Now he embraced the Night's Watch to a degree of forsaking his gods. Why should he care his old family? I think Sam is the most true brother of the Night's Watch.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

My impression from the tool for every task parallel is an even more negative take on Robert. He and Ned were childhood friends and in comparison Stannis seems to act on his limited affection more than we ever see Robert do. The idea of Stannis having a vague friendship inclination toward Jon makes me want to look for some pattern comparing Stannis heading Jon to Ned being ignored by Robert. Is there something similar to marriage for love vs. marriage for politics here? Is friendship a bad political thing for kings? Is this tied to ruling your friends? Ned clearly obeyed Robert so there has to be more to it on the king's part than holding sway over friends. There are plenty of future events that fit this parallel that we can address when they arise. This scene seems like it would be most directly parallel to Robert's offer of Hand of the King in the crypts of Winterfell. Anything jump at comparing that scene to this one?

Never do business with your friends, as the saying goes...

I agree that there is a direct parallel in those scenes. Reading them side by side, the structure is strikingly similar. There is talk about the past, then the current realm/NW affairs, then the offer. The end is almost identical:

“Yes, yes, of course [...] Just don’t keep me waiting too long. I am not the most patient of men.”

“As you wish. But consider quickly. I am not a patient man, as your black brothers are about to discover.”

The contrasts are more telling, though. For starts, the ambience is the polar opposite. Robert/Ned happens inside and underground, in the dark, in a snowy summer day. Stannis/Jon meeting takes place in the open air at the heights of the Wall in a glorious sunny winter day. It looks as an omen for the success of their future cooperation, despite Ned giving a yes and Jon giving a no.

Midway through the conversation, the same question is posed:

You must have wondered why I finally came north to Winterfell, after so long.

Why do you think I abandoned Dragonstone and sailed to the Wall, Lord Snow?

A rhetorical question that leads to opposite conclusions...

The Wall has stood for what, eight thousand years? It can keep a few days more. I have more pressing concerns. These are difficult times. I need good men about me.

I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. [...] There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.

Robert's and Stannis' different priorities are emphasized here.

It is often said that Jon is, perhaps, the most Ned-like of the Stark kids, but in these scenes Ned seems to be a lot more reserved, more cautious to say what is expected of him when talking to a king, while Jon is more straightforward (thrice: on Robb, on correcting his views about Wildlings and on answering the question above) and this is while Ned is supposedly talking to a friend while Jon to a stranger. As it happens, the "unbending" one is more willing to listen to different, even opposing, oppinions.

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On a different note, I think that a discussion about Stannis (limited, of course, to the purpose of this project) would be useful, as Jon/Stannis relationship and interactions are going to play a big part in the following chapters. I'm quite hesitant to start it though, as we all know the Stannis effect on threads :)