Will Bravos be pro or anti Dany?

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

I will have to disagree with banking on bankers going with their emotions, that's seems utterly ridiculous to me. Business doesn't succeed when led by grudges and emotions.

Grudge is too soft a word for this. And it's not about emotions. It's about identifying friend and foe.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

If only Braavos=bank and no so many other things.

Tycho doesn't equal Braavos either in that case, so what he says about it doesn't prove anything

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Grudge is too soft a word for this. And it's not about emotions. It's about identifying friend and foe.

A really stupid way to identify friend or foe is judging it by what weapon they possess.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Tycho doesn't equal Braavos either in that case, so what he says about it doesn't prove anything

It proves the Braavosi don't think like a bank. You have to dissociate the Iron Bank as an organization from the Braavosi.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

It proves the Braavosi don't think like a bank. You have to dissociate the Iron Bank as an organization from the Braavosi.

Not really, there's no proof either way.

The Sealord, the Bank, and the FM all may be organized and working together or they may be seperate entities, we don't know.

And even then, Tycho was making a business deal, I don't trust things said in business deals as %100 accurate.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

A really stupid way to identify friend or foe is judging it by what weapon they possess.

It is a fantasy world. Imo, one of the most common themes in fantasy is the depiction of how mighty artifacts/weapons are shaping their owner. It can be done in a rather primitive way, for example with Arthas in WoW, or in a more broad and meaningful way, with the Ring.

So your argument would be valid everywhere else, but not here.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

It is a fantasy world. Imo, one of the most common themes in fantasy is mighty artifacts/weapons shaping their owner.

So your argument would be valid everywhere else, but not here.

What do you mean weapons shape their owners?

And Remember GRRM likes to sometimes twist fantasy stereotypes.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Not really, there's no proof either way.

The Sealord, the Bank, and the FM all may be organized and working together or they may be seperate entities, we don't know.

And even then, Tycho was making a business deal, I don't trust things said in business deals as %100 accurate.

Then look it that way: What I say I based it on actual facts from the book, what you say you based it on thin air.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Then look it that way: What I say I based it on actual facts from the book, what you say you based it on thin air.

So what you said a fact from the book, doesn't mean it proves your point in any way.

Arya is in Braavos, that's a fact from the book too, doesn't mean it proves that Braavos will support Dany

Cersei says she is a lion, that's a fact from the books, it doesn't prove that Cersei is actually a talking cat.

[sarah.jenice]

I think against Dany because of the way the Tycho Nestoris freaks out when Jon jokes about needing a dragon at the Wall. I think the Braavosi will just hear that dragons are back and will be against it. They won't take the time to hear that she's freeing slaves.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

What do you mean weapons shape their owners?

And Remember GRRM likes to sometimes twist fantasy stereotypes.

Sorry, I edited and provided some simple examples. I hope you get my meaning.

Indeed, he does. That's why I think that Dany might resolve the paradox of using what were tools of slavers to end slavery.

But in GGRTH their might be might see a magical (by our standards, or scientific by medieval standards) connection between the Dragons and the mentality of their owner, one the FM/Maesters are aware of.

Or maybe it's more simple, maybe the Bravoosi will just think that Dany is power hungry, and that since with Dragons it is much easier to subjugate than to liberate , which, by the way, I think was the point of DwD, she will take the second option. And she's mentally ready for this choice, given her famous "A Dragon doesn't plant trees" quote.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So what you said a fact from the book, doesn't mean it proves your point in any way.
Arya is in Braavos, that's a fact from the book too, doesn't mean it proves that Braavos will support Dany


Cersei says she is a lion, that's a fact from the books, it doesn't prove that Cersei is actually a talking cat.

Dany says that she is a dragon. So?

When we have evidence from the book that someone used to do something and that something it was defines him, then he will not change just because. It's like saying that Ned would follow Joff without question just because. Not going to happen.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Any of that's possible sure, it's also possible that because bankers think dragons are an unstoppable weapon that they invest in the dragon mother to cover the back end, regardless of their history.

Just like when Essoss cities would make deals with Drogo because they knew he would make big trouble for them, doesn't mean they liked Drogo and still didn't think he was a Dothraki dog

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I'm just saying, For Braavos to oppose Dany for being a slaver seems pretty ridiculous to me.

The stories about the queen gumming up the works in Slavers Bay are reaching everywhere.

Any fanboy technicality that makes Dany a slaver could also make Stannis a slaver yet they work with him.

I don't think you understand what we're saying. We're not saying Braavos will oppose Dany for being a slaver. We're saying they will not support her for being anti-slavery since they are unlikely to consider such (at least not yet). They will hear stories of how she fought against slavers. They will also hear stories of how she allows the slave market to continue as long as it is technically outside the city walls. Like danm_999 said, they'll probably see it more of a change of power than true change.

Also, it's not fanboy technicality. It's looking at what the Braavosi will see. Nor would Stannis be seen the same as he has never allowed the purchase of slaves, nor legalized slavery in any form.

In terms of politics, Braavos must be a fool to be anti-Dany. Basic politics require that they should be allies with her.

Think this way. Braavos is a state. Dany is a person. So the correct question should be "Will Braavos be pro or anti Danystate?"

So what is Danystate?

It is a state in Meeren ruled by Dany where slavery is by no means legal. There are many former slaves within this city. Its army consists of freed slaves. There are many different religious worship going on without any interference from the state.

This sounds very much like Braavos.

Therefore the state Dany building is more or less like Braavos. Given the damage Dany has done to Slaver economy, Braavos is the natural ally of Dany. All the slaver nations are in open war with Danystate and the most important of them is Volantis, the archenemy of Braavos. Her dragons are nuclear weapons. Braavos will be pro Dany and at the same time, they will try to find a way to eliminate those nuclear weapons, in case of something goes wrong.

Braavos does not allow slavery in any form. Mereen does. It allows slaves to be sold outside the city and people to sell themselves into slavery. They are not alike. Dany of course can change that. But for now, Braavos is probably not going to see Dany as the same as them.

No, I don't think Braavos will forget it exists.

You are saying she won't pay the debt for no other reason than because they were usurper debts, correct?

So why would she accept anything done by Robert? Empty all the prisons because they were filled by the uzurper dog, throw away all that food because it was collected by the usurper dogs!, toss these weapons into the sea because they belonged to the usurper, fire everyone that knows how to do an important governmental job because they were appointed by the usurper, I'll replace them all with new people who have no clue how to do the job.

The funny thing is, unless she agrees to beforehand like Stannis did with the Lannisters, I see no reason Dany should pay for Robert's, Joffery's, and Stannis's debts. If she takes the Throne, then Viserys becomes the retroactive king. To acknowledge the debt would to be acknowledge the Bartheon's were the true kings of Westeros and destroy her claim. Of course, she can always order the Baratheons or the Lannisters (or their replacements) to take the debt since their Houses made it.

Can she rid everything of Robert's rule? No. But neither should she accept everything. It feels like a sort of identity fraud, and I feel that Dany would be totally justified in not paying any debt obtained by her enemies unless she agrees to it. I want to point out this would apply to Stannis and Joffery's debt if he hadn't agreed to repay it

I will have to disagree with banking on bankers going with their emotions, that's seems utterly ridiculous to me. Business doesn't succeed when led by grudges and emotions.

I want to point that they only made the deal with Stannis after Cersei spurned them. They seem to support one side at a time.

And from a business perspective, Dany is questionable. Her biggest business deal ended with her murdering the other side and taking both what she for and what she paid with. This makes her questionable at best from a business perspective. They are going to be wondering if it was just a cynical ploy or not.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

People on this thread did say that they will be anti- Dany because she is a slaver. I just want to point that out before reading any further.

I never opened with the point that they will like her because she freed slavers, I was debating a point already made that they wouldn't align with her because she is a slaver.

2nd point- I too think Dany won't pay Roberts debt unless she makes the deal first. My comments on it were based on a scenario where IB offers her the same deal they offer Stannis, which I think can happen if she becomes actively involved in IT drama.

I maintain that's its ridiculous they would honestly think Dany is more of a slaver than anyone else.

She is the one who has by far done the most to stop slavery.

Her shutting down Slavers Bay has to be on the news in Braavos by now. I find it silly to think ppl there will see her as a slaver anymore than Stannis or anyone else.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1 People on this thread did say that they will be anti- Dany because she is a slaver. I just want to point that out before reading any further.

2 I never opened with the point that they will like her because she freed slavers, I was debating a point already made that they wouldn't align with her because she is a slaver.

3 2nd point- I too think Dany won't pay Roberts debt unless she makes the deal first. My comments on it were based on a scenario where IB offers her the same deal they offer Stannis.

4 I maintain that's its ridiculous they would honestly think Dany is more of a slaver than anyone else.

She is the one who has by far done the most to stop slavery.

Her shutting down Slavers Bay has to be on the news in Braavos by now. I find it silly to think ppl there will see her as a slaver anymore than Stannis or anyone else.

1. My bad. Rereading some, I see you are right about that.

2. Honestly, it seems like you're arguing both. Maybe you're not, but that's what it sounds like to me.

3. I'm not saying anything about that. I just decided to weigh in on the issue, and it was your post I replied to. For the record, I agree. If Dany agreed, I think she would pay back. I am not sure she would agree (and I wouldn't blame her).

4. I don't see it as ridiculous. She allows a slave market outside her city. She legalizes slavery. Let me repeat. She legalizes slavery.

This puts her farther into the *slaver category more than most. It doesn't matter how limited it is. Legalizing slavery in any form destroys any anti-slavery cred you have. Nevermind "if you want to" is a loophole big enough drive a truck through. So, no. She is not the same as Stannis or anyone else who has not legalized slavery.

*Somewhat inaccurately since legalizing slavery isn't technically the same as owning.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

To entertain what you are saying about her legalizing slavery.

Even if thats true, it doesn't erase what she did and how many slaves she freed.

Your saying ending slavery in less than a year didn't work so she made it legal, she still did something to try to stop it, and clearly news of that reached across the continent, they know about Slavers Bay.

Clearly she didn't legalize slavery because she wants people to have slaves

For them to still think she's a dirty rotten slaver after that is very unlikely to me.

[Jackbelucky]

A note: SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THROUGH DoD

Bravos was formed by slaves. Dany frees slaves, for the most part. Within Meereen she has stopped the slave trade, much like the Bravosi did. Though she is the blood of Valyria of old, she is also of westeros, where there are no slaves. She has been sold as a slave, so on principle, they would not oppose her.

Let's consider some other forces at work in Bravos.

The temple of Black and White may oppose her. They give the "gift." They feel what they do is the word of the gods, as far as we can tell from Ayra's chapters. If there is corruption within their ranks, though, or if someone seeks to give the "gift" to her at great sacrifice, they may attempt to slay her. Dany, though, has dragons. If she surrounds herself with them, they will be able to tell who is false and she need not worry. After the poisoning attempt, she will doubtlessly have a taster. Killing her would be incredibly difficult if they were to attempt it.

The Iron Bank will oppose her as long as Stannis Lives. Stannis will give the Iron Bank it's due. He is just, and will see it as his duty to settle the iron throne's debts. They will give Stannis the coin to become King of Westeros. And he has a daughter. He could give his poor daughter to the flames to bring dany low. It seems unlikely that Mel will do this for him. The Temple of Black and White may grant his wish.

The Sealord of Bravos will not oppose her. This one is contigent on whether she tries to take bravos with fire and blood, which seems unlikely that dany would be that foolish. She gains nothing by fighting the bravosi. They are not slavers as the ghiscari are, nor are they a free city that trades in slaves. They have no conflict, and trade would prosper if the seven kingdoms were brought to peace, the sealord will not bestir himself. His actual power is hard to determine.

One might also include the red temple at bravos, but it seems unlikely they have the power to do anything.

Woo, first post!

[Mithras]

By the way let us not forget that Aegon the Conqueror brought Balerion to kick Volantene ass before the conquest. He sided with Tyrosh and Pentos. Although no intervention of Braavos in this conflict is mentioned, we know that Doran made a contract to marry Arianne to Viserys in Braavos, which is witnessed by the sealord. Doran is also a close friend of the Archon of Tyrosh. That is why I assume that Braavos will be in the anti-Volantene leauge.

[HannibalStark]

another thought about Bravos not only, not opposing her, but actually being for her is the comment Tycho (the Banker sent to the Wall, then to meet Stannis) is when Jon asks him about him have 3 ships, a cog, a galley and a galleas ---3 rather not so small ships....

The Bank confirms it and says yes, and mentions the passing might be treacherous but where one ship might fail, 3 can sail together and help each other and the the Iron Bank is ALWAYS prudent in such matters.

Before I though that the Iron Bank might be more hands off or leave Dany alone, but this comment makes me think that once they decided the Iron Throne isn't paying them, they might actually seem to be gathering enemies of the Iron Throne together in a rather loose sort of alliance... where one might falter ( Stannis for example) the support of Dany, and maybe other enemies might actually be their plan.

It would be hard to say that the Iron Bank is helping the Wall/ Jon Snow (a Stark bastard) as a way to oppose the Iron Throne and the Lannisters....this I think would be much more of a stretch and actually just a simple transaction for them. But still, that is two enemies of the Iron Throne so far the Iron Bank has helped. (yes, I know the NW is suppose to be neutral, but its not like the Iron Throne and the Wall/NW have been the best of friends either...plus the whole plot that Cersei thinks she is so clever for concocting about sending a Kettleblack to the Wall to kill Jon)

...back on topic though...The Iron Bank sends 3 large ships to the wall just as a precaution instead of one (which isn't a bad notion), and if this is the M.O. I can actually see them possibly supporting Dany, meaning possibly Bravos supporting Dany.

It is strange also that the KM in the house OF BaW knows that Ayra of house Stark is there...and seemingly who she is...and the fact that they go to great lengths to know what they can about as much as they can....