Which characters would ve crossed the line Daenerys did in Astapor killing all the slavers older than 13? Part 2!

[Aeternum]

It was 163.

Thank you, Ser Pedantry.

Proof that all free men over 13 were wearing tokars???

Tokars are the signature clothes of freeborn Astapori people, no? This is what I remember from the book's description at least, although my eyes usually glaze over whenever "DAENERYS" appears over a chapter.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Tokars are the signature clothes of freeborn Astapori people, no?

No, nowhere in the books is this said.

One quote says freeborn are permitted to wear them, not that they are a signature.

To establish proof you need much more.

A victim is an important thing you need to establish proof of a crime.

How is there a population left if all the adults were killed? Are you saying a city of only children under 13 was left behind?

[El Guapo]

I will say the same thing I said in the other thread in that the ONLY people in the plaza wearing tokars that day when she gave that order were the grand masters and the wealthiest slaveowners. That is it. Did Dany's order include tokar wearing people outside the plaza? No idea, and that is what the debate seems to boil down and since the chapter ends with that scene and we aren't told what Dany does after the massacre in the plaza it is all conjecture at this point.

[Nictarion]

Thank you, Ser Pedantry.

Tokars are the signature clothes of freeborn Astapori people, no? This is what I remember from the book's description at least, although my eyes usually glaze over whenever "DAENERYS" appears over a chapter.

Maybe that's why you aren't remembering things accurately.

[cade]

In response to Usrnmhsnomning from the previous thread:

any counter-claim that only slavers are wearing tokars (which is what multiple posters have done in response to my own evidence, and what you are doing by denying that any non-slavers are wearing tokars)

No, I only said there's no evidence of non-slavers wearing tokars, which is a fact I presented to debunk your claim that "I HAVE shown clear evidence that somebody who is not a member of the slave owning class wears a tokar. I bloody QUOTED IT."

What you quoted only said freeborn Astapori men are permitted to wear tokars. They can also own slaves, and GRRM didn't provide a single example of one not owning slaves, much less such a person also wearing a tokar.

In all of ASoS no one outside of slavers and their women is depicted wearing a tokar, yet Dany detractors continue arguing the "tokar is a symbol of the free man, not a slaver."

[TheMysteriousOne]

I wasn't a participant of the last thread, partly because it was interesting to read without intervening, and partly because I was too lazy.

But there are a few things that I think need clarification.

There are two quotes of significance about the tokar, both from Dany.

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. It was the fringe on the tokar that proclaimed a man's status, Dany had been told by Captain Groleo.

It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master’s garment, a sign of wealth and power. Dany had wanted to ban the tokar when she took Meereen, but her advisors had convinced her otherwise.

Any freeborn Ghiscari can wear a tokar, but it is considered a 'master's garment', a sign of wealth and power. The fringe is what proclaims a person's status.

My overall opinion on this topic, is that Dany committed a noble, as well as cruel, act in Astapor. The noble part was the fact that she did this to free the slaves from bondage. The cruel part comes from the fact that she did not execute her plan properly. IMO, if she was to do a 'proper' sack (please note that I'm not an advocate of sacking, pillaging or massacring cities) she should have ordered only the actual slavers (the nobility) killed, specifically, and then just freed the slaves, and punish the freeborn who had slaves, but were not 'slavers' (the nobility), if they did not let their slaves go free. She should have been far more specific than saying "harm no child under twelve", because I'm sure that some children were killed.

Dany does feel guilt over what happened in Astapor, and this is shown in the end of ASOS, and throughout ADWD. She tries to ameliorate the Astapori people's situation by leaving Meereen to give them food and assisstance, despite the great personal harm to herself.

Furthermore, Dany can be selfish, but she is not selfish wrt to the slaves, which is clearly evident.

“They are afraid for their children,” Reznak said. Yes, Daenerys thought, and so am I.

“Let them come. In me they shall find a sterner foe than Cleon. I would sooner perish fighting than return my children to bondage.”

Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate

to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. “I will not turn away from them,” she said stubbornly. “A queen must know the sufferings of her people.”

“Go if you wish, ser. I will not detain you. I will not detain any of you.” Dany vaulted down from the horse. “I cannot heal them, but I can show them that their Mother cares.”

Would someone who only freed the slaves for his/her own benefit, think/talk like this?

[EstEst]

<...>

What you quoted only said freeborn Astapori men are permitted to wear tokars. They can also own slaves, and GRRM didn't provide a single example of one not owning slaves, much less such a person also wearing a tokar.

In all of ASoS no one outside of slavers and their women is depicted wearing a tokar, yet Dany detractors continue arguing the "tokar is a symbol of the free man, not a slaver."

In ADwD, we see several non-slavers wearing tokars:

- Green Grace (who is a priestess, not a slaver);

- Skahaz who I think was not a slaver, at least after he accepted Dany's ruling;

- Reznak of whom I can say the same;

- Danaerys herself.

Moreover, when Green Grace talks Danaerys into wearing tokar, one of her arguments is that it's a traditional garment of Giskari nobles, and "Meereen's queen must be a lady of Old Ghis". (Note: Lady, not Slave trader or Slaver.)

The phrase "That's a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power" I read as "It's very inconvenient for any labor except for doing nothing", not as "It's a garment specifically purposed for the slave traders".

Of course most of the reach people in Slaver bay were somehow involved in slave trade or owning, since their economics and culture was based on that. But involved in cruel things like training of Unsullied were only few. Slave owners and baby killers are the criminals of very different categories. It was unnecessary to kill all of them without separation.

Edit: sorry, was ninja'd by the poster above.

[TheMysteriousOne]

In ADwD, we see several non-slavers wearing tokars:

- Green Grace (who is a priestess, not a slaver);

- Skahaz who I think was not a slaver, at least after he accepted Dany's ruling;

- Reznak of whom I can say the same;

- Danaerys herself.

I agree with the rest of your post, except for this part.

1. The Green Gracesis from a noble slaving family

2. Skahaz was a slaver

3. Reznak is a noble, thus from a slaving family

4. Dany wanted to ban the tokar, but she ended up wearing it out of pressure to conform to what the Meereenese wanted.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

The Green Grace from Astapor survived the attack

[LordStoneheart]

I suppose I should chime in. I'll answer the wrongly worded OP.

Yes. Most lords would have. Tywin especially. If Dany crossed a line, then Tywin decapitated the line, defiled its corpse, and wrote a song about it when he killed the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Rebel against me? Fine. I'll just massacre you all.

Dany at least had some good intentions whereas Tywin is just kind of a relentless monster. So yes, Tywin would've done all this and more were he the one with Dragons, as would most of the lords we meet who aren't Eddard.

[EstEst]

<...>

1. The Green Gracesis from a noble slaving family

2. Skahaz was a slaver

3. Reznak is a noble, thus from a slaving family

4. Dany wanted to ban the tokar, but she ended up wearing it out of pressure to conform to what the Meereenese wanted.

Sure, as I said, the society was based on slavery. For any noble character, you can always find a family member with 1 degree of separation who is, or was, or will be, involved in slavery.

[El Guapo]

All this talk about who is permitted to wear tokars in just confusing the issue. At that precise moment she gave the order in the plaza the people in the plaza wearing tokars were the grand masters and the wealthy slave owning elites. There is no evidence whatsoever that her order at the time was meant for the entire city at large.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Sure, as I said, the society was based on slavery. For any noble character, you can always find a family member with 1 degree of separation who is, or was, or will be, involved in slavery.

And you need a victim at least, in order to prove that any person like that was killed.

The Green Grace of Astapor was not killed, neither was the Green Grace of Meereen.

[EstEst]

And you need a victim at least, in order to prove that any person like that was killed.

The Green Grace of Astapor was not killed, neither was the Green Grace of Meereen.

Oh, I'm tired of your attempts to catch me on this.

As I said several times, I personally despise the Dany's approach to justice as "collective punishment", slavers or not. I only answered in this talk about tokars because someone posted that no-one except slavers was demonstrated to wear it. I, together with someone else, responded with the quotes that in ADwD several non-slavers were seen wearing tokars. And here you're again trying to catch me on who exactly was killed! THAT DOES NOT MATTER FOR ME, KILLING ALL ADULTS WEARING SOMETHING OR HOLDING WHIPS IS TERRIBLE KIND OF JUSTICE, IRRELEVANT OF THEIR OCCUPATION. IMO, SHE SHOULD HAVE FOUND THE PARTICULAR MEN GUILTY IN THE CRIME OF BABY KILLINGS AND/OR TRAINING UNSULLIED, AND PUNISH THOSE PARTICULAR CRIMINALS. Is that clear?

Or are you saying that we didn't see any victim at all, and so there were none at all?

[aceluby]

Oh, I'm tired of your attempts to catch me on this.

As I said several times, I personally despise the Dany's approach to justice as "collective punishment", slavers or not. I only answered in this talk about tokars because someone posted that no-one except slavers was demonstrated to wear it. I, together with someone else, responded with the quotes that in ADwD several non-slavers were seen wearing tokars. And here you're again trying to catch me on who exactly was killed! THAT DOES NOT MATTER FOR ME, KILLING ALL ADULTS WEARING SOMETHING OR HOLDING WHIPS IS TERRIBLE KIND OF JUSTICE, IRRELEVANT OF THEIR OCCUPATION. IMO, SHE SHOULD HAVE FOUND THE PARTICULAR MEN GUILTY IN THE CRIME OF BABY KILLINGS AND/OR TRAINING UNSULLIED, AND PUNISH THOSE PARTICULAR CRIMINALS. Is that clear?

Or are you saying that we didn't see any victim at all, and so there were none at all?

No time, so she found them all guilty. Can you blame a girl though? She just wanted a free army and get out of there.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Or are you saying that we didn't see any victim at all, and so there were none at all?

I'm saying we don't see any victim at all.

Therefore any likelihood is speculative and unproven.

We don't even know a total of people killed or anything.

If I accuse you of murdering someone, I at the very least need to have a dead or missing person I can point to.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I wasn't a participant of the last thread, partly because it was interesting to read without intervening, and partly because I was too lazy.

But there are a few things that I think need clarification.

There are two quotes of significance about the tokar, both from Dany.

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. It was the fringe on the tokar that proclaimed a man's status, Dany had been told by Captain Groleo.

It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master’s garment, a sign of wealth and power. Dany had wanted to ban the tokar when she took Meereen, but her advisors had convinced her otherwise.

Any freeborn Ghiscari can wear a tokar, but it is considered a 'master's garment', a sign of wealth and power. The fringe is what proclaims a person's status.

My overall opinion on this topic, is that Dany committed a noble, as well as cruel, act in Astapor. The noble part was the fact that she did this to free the slaves from bondage. The cruel part comes from the fact that she did not execute her plan properly. IMO, if she was to do a 'proper' sack (please note that I'm not an advocate of sacking, pillaging or massacring cities) she should have ordered only the actual slavers (the nobility) killed, specifically, and then just freed the slaves, and punish the freeborn who had slaves, but were not 'slavers' (the nobility), if they did not let their slaves go free. She should have been far more specific than saying "harm no child under twelve", because I'm sure that some children were killed.

Dany does feel guilt over what happened in Astapor, and this is shown in the end of ASOS, and throughout ADWD. She tries to ameliorate the Astapori people's situation by leaving Meereen to give them food and assisstance, despite the great personal harm to herself.

Furthermore, Dany can be selfish, but she is not selfish wrt to the slaves, which is clearly evident.

“They are afraid for their children,” Reznak said. Yes, Daenerys thought, and so am I.

“Let them come. In me they shall find a sterner foe than Cleon. I would sooner perish fighting than return my children to bondage.”

Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate

to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. “I will not turn away from them,” she said stubbornly. “A queen must know the sufferings of her people.”

“Go if you wish, ser. I will not detain you. I will not detain any of you.” Dany vaulted down from the horse. “I cannot heal them, but I can show them that their Mother cares.”

Would someone who only freed the slaves for his/her own benefit, think/talk like this?

http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/09/mariah-carey-clap.gif

[EstEst]

No time, so she found them all guilty. Can you blame a girl though? She just wanted a free army and get out of there.

:D Could have just as easily made a "representative justice". Cook Kraznis, as an elected official of the guilty side, and get out of there.

[EstEst]

I'm saying we don't see any victim at all.

Therefore any likelihood is speculative and unproven.

We don't even know a total of people killed or anything.

If I accuse you of murdering someone, I at the very least need to have a dead or missing person I can point to.

Hmm... What about the quote "all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire"? Do you think they all died of heart attack?

ETA: and "Blood aplenty had soaked into the bricks of Astapor the day that city fell, though little of it belonged to her or hers"? Was that the nosebleeding?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Hmm... What about the quote "all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire"? Do you think they all died of heart attack?

Right, nice quote. The word slavers is in that quote, what part of that word makes you think they were not indeed slavers being killed?

If that quote said "slavers and innocent Tokar wearers ran..." then it might back you up.