Is Mace Tyrell really an oaf? Really?

[LordFirkraag]

He has to be an oaf, or he'd be in control of Westeros by now. He has by far the most powerful kingdom...it's just his laziness and his incompetence that's holding him back.

[Jon of the Dead]

He has to be an oaf, or he'd be in control of Westeros by now. He has by far the most powerful kingdom...it's just his laziness and his incompetence that's holding him back.

He is, arguably, in control of Westeros right now.

[White Ravens]

I often think the events that have unfolded so far serve to pave the way for the younger characters to ascend to positions of power and influence and the Tyrells are packing a lot of potential heat in that area. They, like the Martells, have a lot of young characters just waiting to be developed.

[LordFirkraag]

He is, arguably, in control of Westeros right now.

Not really. I envision more a power struggle. Varys' intent in the epilogue was to cause chaos, and that's not going to happen if we see an orderly transition to Tyrell rule.

[mkr'sdirewolf]

And he is a helluva lot away from the others,winter and the wall. So it seems he is more successful than Tywin. Tywin was hated and respected by all the houses but not Mace even though he is no less a schemer than Tywin. Kudos to him.....

[mkr'sdirewolf]

And he is a helluva lot away from the others,winter and the wall. So it seems he is more successful than Tywin. Tywin was hated and respected by all the houses but not Mace even though he is no less a schemer than Tywin. Kudos to him.....

[Agamemnon]

I think backing Renly was a very oafy thing to do. Anybody who would think about it for more than a minute would get that. Why would you back the youngest brother when you would have to fight both the Lannisters and Stannis. He just did it because he wants his daughter to be a queen, and thats an ambitious and idiotic reason to go to fight a very difficult war.

[Jon of the Dead]

I think backing Renly was a very oafy thing to do. Anybody who would think about it for more than a minute would get that. Why would you back the youngest brother when you would have to fight both the Lannisters and Stannis. He just did it because he wants his daughter to be a queen, and thats an ambitious and idiotic reason to go to fight a very difficult war.

Stannis was a non factor back then. If not for the shadow baby, Renly would have beat him in no time.

Besides, by supporting Renly, Mace would have gotten his daughter on the throne and all the Tyrells in the royal family. By supporting Stannis, he would have gotten peanuts. That would have been an oafish thing to do: fight a war for a guy who won't give you nothing

And the war wasn't really difficult for Highgarden. Their plan with Renly was letting the Starks and Lannisters beat each other.

[mb2518]

Stannis had the smallest army at the start of A Clash of King. Whereas Renly's army was the largest.

[Fightbringer]

a lot of Mace's success come from the fact that he is in control of the most men and one of the largest treasuries in westeros, and a lot of his decisions end up working out because those things make it difficult for him to fail.

For example, you cant applaud him from choosing the winning side in the Wo5K when you consider that any side would have been the winning side with his support, as he has at least double the numbers of each of them. All he needed to do was to make the pact in the manner which is most advantageous to him, and considering that the survival of the lannisters and joffrey on the IT depended on him joining their side, he didnt need to work hard for the deals he got.

His faults would be exposed a lot more if he were in charge of a smaller Kingdom, say, Dorne.

[Jon of the Dead]

a lot of Mace's success come from the fact that he is in control of the most men and one of the largest treasuries in westeros, and a lot of his decisions end up working out because those things make it difficult for him to fail.

For example, you cant applaud him from choosing the winning side in the Wo5K when you consider that any side would have been the winning side with his support, as he has at least double the numbers of each of them. All he needed to do was to make the pact in the manner which is most advantageous to him, and considering that the survival of the lannisters and joffrey on the IT depended on him joining their side, he didnt need to work hard for the deals he got.

His faults would be exposed a lot more if he were in charge of a smaller Kingdom, say, Dorne.

Not necessarily. He chose Renly at first, and thanks to Mel he was on the losing side. He suddenly found himself kingless and about to face the possible retribution of Stannis. So it was a pretty good decision to accept Littlefinger's deal. And he's been particularly good at avoiding the most dangerous situations, like he did in the Wot5K

But you have a point, yeah. It's harder to mess up when you have the biggest army. I guess in WoW we'll see how Mace does, when his troops start dwindling

[grand old duke of stark]

Mace is a competent war leader who uses his military brawn to succeed in battle. As many point out, he has the largest army. But he has something better--the sharp mind of his mother to play the Game of Thrones. They are a perfect combination--the politician's brain and the general's brawn. And part of Olenna's strategy is to maneuvre behind the scenes, making advantageous moves when she can, while he carefully provides and witholds his military might as advantageously as he can. And of course part of her strategy is calling him an oaf.

[shk12344]

I for one disagree with assement that Mace is some kind of political genius. I think Mace is exactly what the Queen of Thorn says he is. The House of Tyrell would have been much better position if they simply stayed out of civil war like Vale and let Stannis and Renly fight it out (as well as Lannister vs North). Whatever the outcome Tyrells would have been in stronger position vis-a-vis other Houses and could have dictated heavy price for their support and alliance.

[jarl the climber]

Mace is not particularly intelligent or wise but he does have a good management style. In other words he is a good boss. All of his children play a role in things as well as his Mother. He also has a number of bannermen like Redwyne(Admiral) and Tarly(general) who also play an important part, doing things for him. For the most part he seems to delegate authority to these people more or less and then he stays out of the way. At the same time I think that if he died, Wilas would step right in and the Tyrells would not miss a beat. Still we are talking about him being Lord of the Reach, we have not really seen him as a Hand dealing with other Great Lords, who aren't his kin and who he does not have marriage alliances with. He has also been lucky so far. The Lannisters do feel that he is greedy and not without reason. Its not all Cerseis fault.

Not necessarily. He chose Renly at first, and thanks to Mel he was on the losing side. He suddenly found himself kingless and about to face the possible retribution of Stannis. So it was a pretty good decision to accept Littlefinger's deal. And he's been particularly good at avoiding the most dangerous situations, like he did in the Wot5K

But you have a point, yeah. It's harder to mess up when you have the biggest army. I guess in WoW we'll see how Mace does, when his troops start dwindling

I do not think he is a great military commander all though he does seem to have sons more capable than him as well as some bannermen and he does seem to rely on them and fights from the rear just like Stannis and Tywin. If he has any delusions it could be about his abilities as a soldier or having to much pride in the strength of his army.

[Jasta11]

Stannis had the smallest army at the start of A Clash of King. Whereas Renly's army was the largest.

Well, that was helped by the fact the Reach itself has the largest army in the Realm. Without them, Renly's army would have been smaller than Robb's or Tywin's. Hence, whoever Mance allied with would have the biggest army by default.

As for him being an oaf, I doubt it. He has made sound decisions overall, and his House is in the best position at the moment thanks in large part to them. Until we know exactly how much influence Olenna has on him, we can't really say that she was behind the Tyrell's successes. She can say what she likes to Sansa, doesn't make her right.

[Jon of the Dead]

I for one disagree with assement that Mace is some kind of political genius. I think Mace is exactly what the Queen of Thorn says he is. The House of Tyrell would have been much better position if they simply stayed out of civil war like Vale and let Stannis and Renly fight it out (as well as Lannister vs North). Whatever the outcome Tyrells would have been in stronger position vis-a-vis other Houses and could have dictated heavy price for their support and alliance.

I don't think he's a political genius, but he did managed to become Hand of the King, his daughter became Queen, his son got Brightwater Keep, his other son became a kingsguard, and his other son almost got the North. And I think he'll fill the small council with more Tyrells.

He wouldn't have gotten any of these things if he had remained neutral. If he had remained neutral, Stannis would have won and the Tyrells would be back at square one, maybe even worst because Stannis would have considered them traitors. Mace saw a good chance and took it.

Obviously the man is far from perfect. If I had to point his 2 biggest mistakes, they would be:

1) Going to lay siege at SE. I know it was under Cersei's orders, but he could have found a way to convince her or fool her (as I think Loras did, maybe). If him and his army had stayed at KL, then maybe Cersei wouldn't have gone through with her plot to frame Marg. At least he came back in a hurry when he heard the news, though

2) I think his biggest mistake in WoW will be trusting Randyll with Margaery's life

Whatever happens, I think WoW will be a tough book for the Tyrells

[Mad Monkey]

Well, that was helped by the fact the Reach itself has the largest army in the Realm. Without them, Renly's army would have been smaller than Robb's or Tywin's. Hence, whoever Mance allied with would have the biggest army by default.

To be fair, if his goal was to get a Tyrell on the throne he didn't really have too many choices. Stannis was already married, Robb wasn't seeking the Throne, and Joffrey was betrothed to Sansa and the Lannisters and Tyrells were secret rivals (Pycelle accuses Robert of trying to set Cersei aside for Margaery, and Renly tries to get Ned to say that Margaery looks like Lyanna).

As far as Mance goes, that may be true (I'm not sure low large the wildling host was at the time) but the issue there is lack of discipline. Apart from the Magnars, the wildlings aren't an army but merely a gang of individuals vying for power and glory. Yes, in theory if Mance had delivered this host to one of the other kings they would have had sheer numbers on their side but this army would have broken as soon as anyone attacked them.

Not really comparable to the advantage that the Reach would lend, not just in terms of fighting men but also logistics (food, water, siege materials, coin).

[Petyr Patter]

I for one disagree with assement that Mace is some kind of political genius. I think Mace is exactly what the Queen of Thorn says he is. The House of Tyrell would have been much better position if they simply stayed out of civil war like Vale and let Stannis and Renly fight it out (as well as Lannister vs North). Whatever the outcome Tyrells would have been in stronger position vis-a-vis other Houses and could have dictated heavy price for their support and alliance.

This is not entirely true. Look at Houses Lannister, Greyjoy, and Frey during Robert's Rebellion. They sat it out until a winner was determined. Tywin at least made up for lost time by sacking King's Landing and doing some "house cleaning" for the new administration. In contrast, Walder gained the nickname "Late Lord Frey" and the Greyjoys got nothing. If the major battle is already determined, then why do the winners need your support. The time to pick a side is early, and hope that side wins. Do you think Tywin was happy to make peace with the Tyrells who just a few months ago were marching to depose his grandson? Had Robb not been beating him no the field, he would never have consented, but in the end pragmatism won out.

The second time around when Robb is marching on Lannister forces, Frey signs up early and gets a series of prestigious agreements, including two marriage contracts, a squireship, and two wardships. Had Frey stayed out and Robb marched South to face Tywin and somehow won, then the Freys would not have been able to marry into House Stark.

Also, even if the Tyrells sit it out, doens't mean they can keep their bannermen from sitting it out. House Florrent was very eager to back Stannis, and other households might ignore Tyrell neutrality to join a side they had connections with.

[otherbeef]

You don't go from having very little power in the capital to having literally all of it by being dumb

[Lord Puff Fish]

To be fair, his mother doesn't call him "Lord Puff Fish" for nothing. However, I think Mace is a lot more intelligent than people give him credit for.