Emeralds

[Caspoi]

Aegon wasn't really a usurper. With the agnatic primogeniture of the Iron Throne he actually comes before Rhaenys.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

In ACoK, emerald (or green) is often used in conjunction with black to foreshadow the Battle of the Blackwater. Tyrion used wildfire to strike the battle's first major blow. (Blackwater, wildfire.) Further, three separate descriptions of the substance include the word emerald, the last two during the battle.

 

Is this true?  I'm trying to think of some textual examples, and all I can think of are not actual foreshadowings of the battle, but descriptions of wildfire.  Describing something green as being green is not foreshadowing it's use in a battle.  Are there any references to emeralds or green in conjunction with black that are clearly referring to the upcoming Battle of Blackwater that aren't descriptions of the wildfire?  

I think there's too much attention paid to color codes and attempts to find foreshadowing where none is.  Saying the "The snow is white" is not foreshadowing that Jon Snow will have a white direwolf, it's just a description.

[J. Stargaryen]

Aegon wasn't really a usurper. With the agnatic primogeniture of the Iron Throne he actually comes before Rhaenys.

 

Rhaenyra was the designated heir.

 

Is this true?  I'm trying to think of some textual examples, and all I can think of are not actual foreshadowings of the battle, but descriptions of wildfire.  Describing something green as being green is not foreshadowing it's use in a battle.  Are there any references to emeralds or green in conjunction with black that are clearly referring to the upcoming Battle of Blackwater that aren't descriptions of the wildfire? 

 

Pre-Blackwater mentions of wildfire serve as Checkov's Wildfire, which means they were at least foreshadowing its later use.

 

I think there's too much attention paid to color codes and attempts to find foreshadowing where none is.  Saying the "The snow is white" is not foreshadowing that Jon Snow will have a white direwolf, it's just a description.

 

GRRM titled his Dangerous Women novella, The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens. After which, a few people started noticing that black and green show up together a fair bit in the series. Tyrion's eyes, Shaggydog's coloring. In AGoT, Daenerys III, it's said that Dany had heard that the first dragons had come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai (black) and the islands of the Jade Sea (green), etc. I think that sort of thing is worth looking in to.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

Rhaenyra was the designated heir.

 

 

Pre-Blackwater mentions of wildfire serve as Checkov's Wildfire, which means they were at least foreshadowing its later use.

 

 

GRRM titled his Dangerous Women novella, The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens. After which, a few people started noticing that black and green show up together a fair bit in the series. Tyrion's eyes, Shaggydog's coloring. In AGoT, Daenerys III, it's said that Dany had heard that the first dragons had come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai (black) and the islands of the Jade Sea (green), etc. I think that sort of thing is worth looking in to.

Pre-blackwater mentions of wildfire are indeed foreshadowing, but not pre-Blackwater mentions of the colors black and green, unless some specific tie can be made that can't also be explained by "Well, they are talking about a green substance".

There are only so many colors, and a descriptive writer is going to use most of them whether he's trying to foreshadow something or not.  And in a lot of these color-code theories, someone says "This is associated with color X, therefore color X here is referring to that" but they never give a solid explanation as to why color X is associated with the first thing - e.g., from just above, you associate the shadow lands beyond Asshai with black - why?  Shadow is not black, shadow is a darker shade of whatever the shadow falls on.  I don't associate Asshai with black (actually I associate it with the reddish color it is in the CK2 Game of Thrones mod, but that's irrelevant), and I don't recall any descriptions of the shadow lands as being black.  So someone says black and green refers to dragons somehow, and says this is because someone said dragons came from a place that THEY associate with the color black, but there's nothing textual there.

There are hundreds of references to the colors green and black in the books that have nothing to do with dragons, or the Shadow, or past civil wars.  I think people are thrown off because GRRM is a very descriptive writer, and writers like to use color to help distinguish similar things in people's minds.  There's also the fact that color is a very big part of the coats of arms that a number of the noble houses have, and there is some very obvious symbolism there (e.g. the Reyne/Lannister, Targaryan/Blackfyre color reversals) but 99% of these color-code based theories seem to be people grasping for any connection they can find to create a novel theory, which can't be blamed considering we may never get another book to theorize about.

[Caspoi]

Viserys certainly favoured her but as far as I am aware there is no addition to the law which says that the king can designate an heir.

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

 

Here is a thread called [url=http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104104-green-and-black/]Green and Black[/url], which lists and discusses some of the instances of this color combination appearing. Some of the occurrences are more impressive than others. The glass candles, for example.

 

As for Asshai:

 

Few places in the known world are as remote as Asshai, and fewer are as forbidding. Travelers tell us that the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all. Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy.
Asshai is a large city, sprawling out for leagues on both banks of the black river Ash. Behind its enormous land walls is ground enough for Volantis, Qarth, and King’s Landing to stand side by side and still have room for Oldtown.

 

[...]

 

The ships bring casks of freshwater too. The waters of the Ash glisten black beneath the noonday sun and glimmer with a pale green phosphorescence by night.

 

[...]

 

The ships come nonetheless. For gold, for gems, and for other treasures, for certain things spoken of only in whispers, things that cannot be found anywhere upon the earth save in the black bazaars of Asshai.
The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery.

 

The shadow that killed Renly:

 

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword…

 

Viserys certainly favoured her but as far as I am aware there is no addition to the law which says that the king can designate an heir.

 

In fact, the king often named his heir. Elio has stated that primogeniture was customary, but not binding. When Rhaegar died, Aerys reportedly chose to go against primogeniture and named Viserys his heir. Egg named Jaehaerys his heir, after he forced his oldest son and heir, Duncan, to give up his claim to the IT.

[Caspoi]

The Duncan case was different because he was disinherited amd Aerys was mad in the middle of a war, these thing were not exactly clear then with a rebel army marching towards them.

[J. Stargaryen]

The Duncan case was different because he was disinherited amd Aerys was mad in the middle of a war, these thing were not exactly clear then with a rebel army marching towards them.

 

Those aren't the only examples. And the Duncan case shows that primogeniture is not binding. Another example is when Egg became king. If you'll recall, Aerion Brightflame's infant son, Maegor, was the heir according to male primogeniture. Also, Aegon IV supposedly talked about disinheriting Daeron.

[argona]

I just had to post and thank you for this amazing analysis.

[J. Stargaryen]

I just had to post and thank you for this amazing analysis.

 

Thanks. Glad you liked it.

[Caspoi]

J. Stargaryen@ Yes but while he obviously wanted her to be queen according to the law as it was Aegon was the rightful heir and he had done nothing to stop it. I understand that you could argue for Rhaenys to be the heir but it certainly was not so simple as "Aegon was the usurper".

[J. Stargaryen]

J. Stargaryen@ Yes but while he obviously wanted her to be queen according to the law as it was Aegon was the rightful heir and he had done nothing to stop it. I understand that you could argue for Rhaenys to be the heir but it certainly was not so simple as "Aegon was the usurper".

 

It's not an issue of want. The king's word is law. Rhaenyra was the designated and acknowledged heir of the 7K.

[Caspoi]

The King's word is not law in that absolute sense. He still have to take into account existing laws and such and my point is that he did not even write it somewhere that she was the heir despite all the laws saying otherwise. In seesnse it was not the law.

[J. Stargaryen]

The King's word is not law in that absolute sense. He still have to take into account existing laws and such and my point is that he did not even write it somewhere that she was the heir despite all the laws saying otherwise. In seesnse it was not the law.

 

Um, what?

 

In 105 AC, her mother finally delivered the son that the king and queen had both longed for, but the queen died in childbirth, and the boy—named Baelon—only survived her by a day. By this time, Viserys I was heartily sick of being hectored over the succession, and disregarding the precedents of 92 AC and the Great Council of 101 AC, he officially declared that Rhaenyra was Princess of Dragonstone and his heir. A grand ceremony was arranged in which hundreds of lords knelt to do homage to the princess while she sat at her father’s feet. - TWoIaF, Viserys I

 

All due respect, but it doesn't seem like you're very knowledgeable about this particular topic, so I'm not sure why you're intent on arguing this point.

 

Rhaenyra was the designated and acknowledged heir of the 7K. The king's word is law. Whether people choose to obey that law is another matter.

[Caspoi]

J. Stargaryen Yes but wasn't that before he had gotten a male heir? The tineline is important. And no, kings have no absolute authority in that sense, partly because they have to take in account what previous kings have decreed.

[Fire Eater]

J. Stargaryen Yes but wasn't that before he had gotten a male heir? The tineline is important. And no, kings have no absolute authority in that sense, partly because they have to take in account what previous kings have decreed.

But every time Otto and Alicent Hightower tried to broach on the subject of succession, he said it would remain unchanged with Rhaenyra as his heir. This is exemplified by telling his first grandson by Rhaenyra, Jace, that he would one day sit the IT, long after Alicent bore him sons. 

[Caspoi]

I know@ There are quotes in the fact that even after Aegon was born Viserys countinued to consider Rhaenys his heir but as Aegon was not born when this happened he could technically not be considered disinherited.

 

What I mean to say is not that Viserys did not consider Rhaenys his heir but more whether by law she actually was.

[J. Stargaryen]

I know@ There are quotes in the fact that even after Aegon was born Viserys countinued to consider Rhaenys his heir but as Aegon was not born when this happened he could technically not be considered disinherited.

 

What I mean to say is not that Viserys did not consider Rhaenys his heir but more whether by law she actually was.

 

There was a legal precedent favoring males, but there was no law, as it were, that Viserys I contradicted by naming Rhaenyra -- not Rhaenys -- his heir.

[Lost Melnibonean]

@J. Stargaryen, Help me out, did you address this tidbit, "Every blade of grass was carved from emerald," from Clash 23, after Jon arrives at Crater's keep?

[J. Stargaryen]

@J. Stargaryen, Help me out, did you address this tidbit, "Every blade of grass was carved from emerald," from Clash 23, after Jon arrives at Crater's keep?

 

From the OP: The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice. - Jon III

 

There is no direct emeralds = usurpers connection here. However, what we do have is more BotB foreshadowing, which itself is a battle between a rightful claimant and usurpers.