Sansa's Sense of Family

[Bonifer Tasty]

How 'normal' is it that Jeyne Poole can be happy about cheering on a very dangerous sporting event but can't even honor the fallen with grace? I find that behavior completely abnormal and distasteful.

See! You have adopted Sansa's point of view entirely. (Or else, Arya's, who clumps Jeyne in with her despised older sister). Sansa is so certain that Jayne is a silly girl of lower class - it is not until the humbled Theon/Reek comes along that we see Jayne through another character's eyes and feel greater sympathy for her. I remember being so shocked at the scene, after Eddard is arrested and Jeyne is distraught over all the slaughter taking place, and Sansa can only think she is a silly useless child (so much for empathy!). Sansa is literally fussing with her dress so she will look good (in case she gets to see Cersei) and then passes remarks she imagines are kind (that Cersei will help them - delusional!). Jayne may be a silly young girl, btu she is not delusional in this moment. She looks with unbelieving eyes and bursts into greater tears. Doubtless she is seeing Sansa for the first time as "not quite right" in that moment. We never get insight into Jeyne's own thoughts, as she is whisked away right after this.

And the death was pretty gruesome with that shard of lance in the eye. I would agree that Jeyne was weaker than Bran, made of less stern stuff, but being shocked by a bloody unexpected death can hardly be classed as abnormal!

[Dicer]

I think 1, 2 and 3 are very well covered in the tv series, when Ned sits down with Arya in the staircase and explains her that Sansa is now Joffrey's future queen and is has to be loyal to him. Yes, it's a cop out, but one that is expected of her.

In the books Ned takes a different approach. He reminds Arya that she lied about Nymeria escaping when Arya forced Nymeria to go. But he then calls Arya's lie an honorable one. He does not quantify Sansa's lie as honorable or otherwise. I do think Ned was disappointed that Sansa lied when he called on her to tell the truth.

And I am now wondering if this concept of a wedding divorcing a woman from her birth family is harder for Western readers to understand than it is for Asian ones?

Wait, what? Why should Asian readers find it easier to understand that a wedding divorces a woman from her birth family? I am Asian but I was dismayed at Sansa's actions during the whole Arya-Joffrey-Mycah incident.

In the first place Sansa was not even married. She was betrothed. In the second, it was more about doing the right thing and telling the truth. Her sister had nearly died and was in danger for several days while the Lannister men were out to get her. Arya was dragged before the king to face punishment. Instead of being worried about her well being she was more concerned about making sure that she remained in Joffrey's good books.

I think Catelyn would have been more dismayed over Sansa's actions than Ned was. Yes, she was Stark after her wedding. But I don't think she is the kind of person who would lie and turn on the Tullys to just get in with the Starks. And Cersei is more Lannister than Baratheon. I foresee Margaery being more loyal to the Tyrells than the Lannisters even if she marries Tommen.

I don't think all married women in Westeros are all that divorced from their birth family. They can still be loyal to their birth family.

[Bonifer Tasty]

Every time someone writes that Sansa Stark is a sociopath, God butchers a grip of kittens. STOP KILLING KITTENS.

I heard she actually killed Puddles too, and just pinned it on Sam. And she shot JFK. :leaving:

Haha! I love it.

No surprise there - if you read the old testament, you'll quickly notice that God is a sociopath too!

[Iona]

Well, I think Ned was trying to convince himself as much as her. Ned's best friend knowingly chose the unjust path and hurt his family; I say knowingly, because Robert knew the right thing when he first spoke it, but Cersei nagged him into changing his position. Not getting a headache from Cersei meant more than breaking Sansa's heart by killing lady for no good reason. Ned felt betrayal, and foreboding that Robert had "changed" into an untrustworthy brute, and this doubt of his friend went on down the line as Ned weighed what to do about the secret of Joffrey's paternity. He wanted to be kind to his friend, and on the other hand loyal to his friend, but felt he could not trust him.

The Mycah-Lady incident fatally undermined his trust in Robert. (Fatal for both of them, as it turned out.)

Sadly, it was still true, no matter how much it sucked... :(

[Winter's Knight]

Except...she doesn't turn on Arya. She doesn't implicate anyone. Because she had to choose between her future husband and her younger sister, she instead states that she "doesn't remember". And her father supports her in this-she's already told him what happened and he doesn't indict either Joff or Arya either.

I don't see what Sansa did wrong by refusing to take sides.

[complexphoenix]

Why shouldn't her age excuse her? She was ELEVEN. And while I'd like to see some reflection and remorse from her too, i think she's got more important things to worry about than a long-ago incident that was nowhere near as awful as the things that have happened to her since.

[BanzaiZ]

Let's also point out that Sansa has already told Ned everything that happened.

Ned bungles the situation badly, Robert caves to Cersei, and now Sansa is dragged to a media circus trial.

I'm not sure what people want out of Sansa in this situation. She did what she was supposed to do, she told her father. He bungled it, and she was put in a terrible situation of having to choose between her future family and her birth family. She managed to keep the peace as much as it could be kept by feigning a lack of memory.

And again, Cersei was going to do away with the direwolves before they arrived to King's Landing, one way or another. People were immediately dispatched to look for both Mycah AND Arya. Cersei wanted Arya dead or maimed, if we're to believe Jaime's account of it. Ned was told the truth of the situation, and he did not call the men back from looking for Mycah. So by this account, Mycah's death is on Ned's head, right?

It was a bad situation, made exponentially worse by the adults involved deciding to use it for political leverage.

[Pod The Impaler]

Every time someone writes that Sansa Stark is a sociopath, God butchers a grip of kittens. STOP KILLING KITTENS.

I heard she actually killed Puddles too, and just pinned it on Sam. And she shot JFK. :leaving:

Actually, that JFK thing was Lee Harvey Oswald Kettleblack.

[Dicer]

Except...she doesn't turn on Arya. She doesn't implicate anyone. Because she had to choose between her future husband and her younger sister, she instead states that she "doesn't remember". And her father supports her in this-she's already told him what happened and he doesn't indict either Joff or Arya either.

I don't see what Sansa did wrong by refusing to take sides.

Except she does implicate Arya with her silence. Arya was the guilty party here. Joffrey was the one accusing her, Mycah and Nymeria of attacking him without any provocation. When she lies and says she does not remember, she is turning on Arya and taking Joffrey's side. There is no one to corroborate Arya's true story that Nymeria attacked Joffrey to save her life. Instead both Arya's truth and Joffrey's lie have equal value because Sansa lied. And probably gave Cersei more power to demand a wolf's life to make up for Joffrey's injuries. Cersei and Joffrey had more power in this situation. Sansa telling the truth could have given Arya's version of events more support and allowed Robert to dismiss the events without killing a random wolf to satisfy Cersei's demand for justice.

Ned does not support her in this. In fact he calls on Sansa to tell the truth because he knows that Sansa knew what happened. He expected Sansa to support her sister. Sansa's lie left him powerless and unable to make a case. And after she lied and Arya reacted badly to the lie, things went downhill. There was nothing Ned could do. He could not very well accuse his daughter of lying in front of everyone.

I'm not sure what people want out of Sansa in this situation. She did what she was supposed to do, she told her father. He bungled it, and she was put in a terrible situation of having to choose between her future family and her birth family. She managed to keep the peace as much as it could be kept by feigning a lack of memory.

Most people wanted Sansa to do the right thing and tell the truth. Her father expected the same of his daughter. I don't see where Ned bungled anything. He just did not expect his daughter to lie.

[Pod The Impaler]

She also bumped off Old Abe I hear-and stole a TARDIS!

Arya stole the TARDIS - a good TARDIS is hard to find.

[Dr. Pepper]

Sansa is literally fussing with her dress so she will look good (in case she gets to see Cersei) and then passes remarks she imagines are kind (that Cersei will help them - delusional!).

Every time I see a kid looking at a parental or authority figure for help or assistance, I think "Gods, how delusional!"

It's honestly hard to see how Sansa could trust Ned to offer the right authoritative support when he failed her so horribly back on the Kingsroad. He wanted her to stand up the the king, queen and crown prince, and perhaps tell a lie. Commit treason. But he wasn't willing to do the same in order to spare her pet or his children's safety.

[Bonifer Tasty]

Every time I see a kid looking at a parental or authority figure for help or assistance, I think "Gods, how delusional!"

It's honestly hard to see how Sansa could trust Ned to offer the right authoritative support when he failed her so horribly back on the Kingsroad.

Trust Cersei?! Cersei had Lady killed - very unjustly, given that it was Nymeria who bit Joffrey. The delusion I refer to is not that Cersei would be nice to her and to Jeyne, it is that Sansa (above all else) needed to see herself married to her beautiful prince. She's the ONLY person (with the possible exception of Cersei) who saw Joffrey as by nature good, kind, merciful, and beautiful.

She was majorly deluded!

[BanzaiZ]

Except she does implicate Arya with her silence. Arya was the guilty party here. Joffrey was the one accusing her, Mycah and Nymeria of attacking him without any provocation. When she lies and says she does not remember, she is turning on Arya and taking Joffrey's side. There is no one to corroborate Arya's true story that Nymeria attacked Joffrey to save her life. Instead both Arya's truth and Joffrey's lie have equal value because Sansa lied. And probably gave Cersei more power to demand a wolf's life to make up for Joffrey's injuries.

Ned does not support her in this. In fact he calls on Sansa to tell the truth because he knows that Sansa knew what happened. He expected Sansa to support her sister. Sansa's lie left him powerless and unable to make a case. And after she lied and Arya reacted badly to the lie, things went downhill. There was nothing Ned could do. He could not very well accuse his daughter of lying in front of everyone.

Because Ned has totally made great decisions since heading South? I'm not knocking Ned, but nearly his entire time as Hand was a veritable "What Not To Do" of playing politics.

He handled this situation horribly. All of the adults did.

Let's also remember that we have an entire plot centered around what happens when someone strikes the King and or Crowned Prince. Dunk and Egg is giant mirror at how sacrosanct the royal family is in this regard. Politically, Arya nearly ruined her family. The ruling family was within their rights to demand her head, or at the very least her hand.

I'm not knocking Arya here. This is the political reality, and Arya, even though she acted for a good reason, really kicked a hornets' nest.

[The Sleeper]

4. Again, she didn't blame it on anyone. She refused to answer. Telling the truth puts Arya at more peril. If she truly wished grave harm on Arya, she wouldn't have refused to answer. Instead, she waits until Arya is out of trouble to express her anger and frustration. This isn't just a child thing, it's a human thing. We say terrible things we don't mean when we are deeply upset.

5. Joffrey's "true" colors weren't shown there quite like you think they were. By all appearances, he looked as though he were trying to defend a daughter of Stark. It was all a very unfortunate situation that would have been prevented had the adults taken responsibility with monitoring the children. Betrothals aren't broken save for very exceptional reasons.

4. Arya as far as we know told the truth. How would Sansa confirming her version would have put her into more trouble?

5. The whole incident is given to us through Sansa's eyes. I doubt that anything in her experience in Winterfell would qualify Joffrey cutting up the face of an unarmed boy as acceptable behavior. WE have her own account of Joffrey reacting with what Sansa thinks of as pure loathing and the vilest comtempt.

Sansa herself gives later two very different accounts for the events. In AGOT she tells Arya that Mycah's death was justified, because he had attacked Joffrey, and later when asked about Joffrey's character she offers that very incident as evidence that he is a monster. I find it quite intriguing that she tells it the first time to Arya that was actually there.

In general, we see plenty of other characters agonising over past decisions and actions, regardless of actual culpablility, regreting not thinking of things they feel they should have seen, thinking what would have happened if they had done something differently. I can't recall of the top of my head any such thoughts from Sansa.

[Woman of War]

I think that there are some posters who do not fully understand the sort of marriage Sansa would have been entering into. Joff was not just her fiancee, he was also her lord and master. The bottomline is, had things gone in the usual manner, Arya would most likely have been married off to a nother lord and whole years could go by without the sisters interacting-just look at Cat and Lysa for instance.

Sansa however would have to live with Joff in the most intimate way possible for the rest of her life-her husband's family'd become her family more than the one she was born into.

And I am now wondering if this concept of a wedding divorcing a woman from her birth family is harder for Western readers to understand than it is for Asian ones?

Yes it is and this may be the reason to some misunderstandings here in these forums based on different cultural backgrounds.

Im modern Western families adult children stay more or less a part of their own family as long as they live. Blood is thicker than marriage and the loyalty of a girl will always be stronger to her own family.

If the relationship of a woman to her husband's or boyfriend's parents ever turns into a close or even caring one entirely depends if a friendship develops or not. In my country family normally means the nucleus family of father, mother and children. And very often people do not even bother to marry when they have kids. Apart from that, think of all the gay and lesbian couples with or without kids.

But it happens that a woman and her daughter in law become best friends. And sometimes they decide to stay no more than distantly polite. If a woman decides to care for her husband's old parents is normally her own choice.

Yet no one would ever expect her to give up her own family in favor of a new one and "mother" is always her own mother and not her husband's.

By marriage people form a new family, they do not enter another one that already exists, and a woman is not divorced from her old family, certainly not emotionally, though physically the young woman may have moved out long before her wedding, seeking independence or finding a job elsewhere.

Ye, obviously the concept is completely different from the family concept of tpeople and friends I met in India. But Martin grew up in Western culture and he aproaches the idea of personal freedom and the concept of individuality and group belonging with Western eyes.

[Dicer]

Because Ned has totally made great decisions since heading South? I'm not knocking Ned, but nearly his entire time as Hand was a veritable "What Not To Do" of playing politics.

He handled this situation horribly. All of the adults did.

Let's also remember that we have an entire plot centered around what happens when someone strikes the King and or Crowned Prince. Dunk and Egg is giant mirror at how sacrosanct the royal family is in this regard. Politically, Arya nearly ruined her family. The ruling family was within their rights to demand her head, or at the very least her hand.

I'm not knocking Arya here. This is the political reality, and Arya, even though she acted for a good reason, really kicked a hornets' nest.

Are you seriously comparing Ned's actions to Sansa's actions in AGoT. Ned may have made stupid decisions but he has never been selfish or done things for personal gain. His lies and deceit have often been for the sake of others (Jon/Lyanna and Sansa herself when he confessed to being a traitor). His love for his family, his honor and his loyalty are all characteristics that define who Ned is a person.

Let's remember that in this case that King Robert was not concerned about whether Arya hit the crown prince or not. He already knew that. If it was as simple as that, then there was no need for Sansa to be called was there? The crime that was being debated was whether the attack on Joffrey was unprovoked or not. Arya was making the case that she and Nymeria attacked in self defense. Joffrey was making the case that Arya, Mycah and Nymeria attacked him unprovoked.

So Arya really did not do anything wrong here or bring political ruin. She was defending an innocent butcher boy who Joffrey would have mutilated for his own pleasure. I think that any of the Stark children (With the exception of Sansa) would have done the same.

4. Arya as far as we know told the truth. How would Sansa confirming her version would have put her into more trouble?

We know Arya told the truth because Ned is there when she tells it. And then Ned calls Sansa to verify that truth. Sansa had already told Ned the truth. If the two events don't match up, Ned would not have called on Sansa as a witness.

[Queen Alienor]

Except she does implicate Arya with her silence. Arya was the guilty party here. Joffrey was the one accusing her, Mycah and Nymeria of attacking him without any provocation. When she lies and says she does not remember, she is turning on Arya and taking Joffrey's side. There is no one to corroborate Arya's true story that Nymeria attacked Joffrey to save her life. Instead both Arya's truth and Joffrey's lie have equal value because Sansa lied. And probably gave Cersei more power to demand a wolf's life to make up for Joffrey's injuries. Cersei and Joffrey had more power in this situation. Sansa telling the truth could have given Arya's version of events more support and allowed Robert to dismiss the events without killing a random wolf to satisfy Cersei's demand for justice.

Ned does not support her in this. In fact he calls on Sansa to tell the truth because he knows that Sansa knew what happened. He expected Sansa to support her sister. Sansa's lie left him powerless and unable to make a case. And after she lied and Arya reacted badly to the lie, things went downhill. There was nothing Ned could do. He could not very well accuse his daughter of lying in front of everyone.

But Arya was the guilty party! Not in our eyes, but that is a feudal society. Joffrey was the crown prince. And Arya attacked him to defend a peasant boy. Crown prince - commoner... what do you think would have happened to Arya? A peasant boy is nothing to this people! It's mostly Arya here who thinks that Mycah is worth defending. Do you really think Cersei or Robert would have cared for the butchers boy? And if you take Mycah out of the equation, it was Arya attacking the crown prince. That is how people like Cersei would have seen it.

[The Sleeper]

Except...she doesn't turn on Arya. She doesn't implicate anyone. Because she had to choose between her future husband and her younger sister, she instead states that she "doesn't remember". And her father supports her in this-she's already told him what happened and he doesn't indict either Joff or Arya either.

I don't see what Sansa did wrong by refusing to take sides.

She kept her ass out of it. That is not necessarily wrong, but it says something about her character.

[Bonifer Tasty]

So Arya really did not do anything wrong here or bring political ruin. She was defending an innocent butcher boy who Joffrey would have mutilated for his own pleasure. I think that any of the Stark children (With the exception of Sansa) would have done the same.

Hear hear! With the exception of Sansa.

As for evidence of Sansa's "family feeling", as the OP questioned... the only scene I can call to mind that even approaches family feeling is when she is nearing the end of her time at the Eyrie, and happens to think about Jon. She considers that it might be nice to see him again, since he was all that was left, and despite his being a bastard half brother.

So close Sansa! You almost had a loving thought! Alas, the context of her thoughts was her return to Winterfell. Homesickness? Possibly. But I think she is thinking so often of Winterfell because she is being made to personify Alayne Stone... Winterfell is the place where Sansa Stark was a beautiful, enviable lady...she wants that back.

[Dicer]

But Arya was the guilty party! Not in our eyes, but that is a feudal society. Joffrey was the crown prince. And Arya attacked him to defend a peasant boy. Crown prince - commoner... what do you think would have happened to Arya? A peasant boy is nothing to this people! It's mostly Arya here who thinks that Mycah is worth defending. Do you really think Cersei or Robert would have cared for the butchers boy? And if you take Mycah out of the equation, it was Arya attacking the crown prince. That is how people like Cersei would have seen it.

Again. The case being debated was not if Arya hit Joffrey with a stick. Arya already admitted to that and Joffrey has injuries to show for it. Robert knew all that. The case being debated was whether Arya, Nymeria and Mycah attacked Joffrey unprovoked. That was what Robert was trying to find out.

If it was as simple as Arya being guilty because feudal society and all that, then it was an open and shut case. Robert would have punished Arya and there was no need for Sansa to even be there.