Sansa's Sense of Family

[BanzaiZ]

Says the person with the profile pic of that model of anti-mysogyny, Mrs. Eleanor Iselin, from the Manchurian Candidate! LOL. You're the one trolling...

That 50 mile reach to negate someone based on their profile photo does you no favors.

[Queen Alienor]

She only went to Cersei because she was afraid of Robert.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Bonifer Tasty, on 17 Nov 2013 - 3:41 PM, said:

Says the person with the profile pic of that model of anti-mysogyny, Mrs. Eleanor Iselin, from the Manchurian Candidate! LOL. You're the one trolling...

Ellie Iselin is a well written villain, not a character I identify with personally. Is that the best you have?

If you want to make the case that Sansa is a sociopath you should look up the diagnostic criteria for anti social personality disorder and show that she fits it.

[Dicer]

Again, we don't know what stories they told because we didn't hear them. What we saw is that Arya struck the prince and, while we are sympathetic to Mycah, it was unprovoked. Arya did not speak up for Mycah when Joffrey asked what was going on. All Joffrey sees is a commoner hitting his future wife's sister and Arya says nothing at the time to confirm what was happening. Perhaps Sansa told the story exactly as she narrated it to us and Ned read between the lines and understood or assumed what all happened, but that's not how everyone would see it. Ned has the benefit of knowing that Arya absolutely is the sort to go off and order the butcher's son to play at swords, but this isn't the normal behavior for young ladies and others would have a hard time drawing those conclusions. It doesn't help anyone that Arya confirmed suspicions that she was violent and wild when she attacked Sansa for no reason at all.

I am not understanding what you are saying here. Sansa obviously told her father what happened.

Her version would be that:

Joffrey carved up Mycah's face

Arya hit Joffrey

Joffrey attacked Arya

Nymeria attacked Joffrey

It's not all that complicated. What exactly is Ned reading between the lines and assuming here? Arya's version would be the same. Why would there be a difference in Arya's version of the truth? Are you saying that Arya lied and told the King that Joffrey attacked her first and not Mycah?

Ned hears Arya version. Sansa is not in the room. Then he calls Sansa to corroborate her sister's account. Clearly he thinks the two versions are similar enough. Arya was brought directly to the king by Cersei. There was no contact between Sansa and Arya. So Ned thinks that Sansa giving Robert the exact version of events that Arya just told everyone helps her case. Everyone in that room would have known that Joffrey lied and Arya told the truth.

Joffrey had accused Arya, Nymeria and Mycah of attacking him unprovoked. Arya's case was more of self defense. She admitted to hitting Joffrey to defend Mycah.

It was a case of he said, she said. And the one witness who could help shed light on the event decided to lie and say that she did not remember.

I'm saying that Sansa understood the gravity of the situation more than Ned did. Telling the truth as she narrated it to us does no good for Arya, while modifying the story does no good for relations with the royal family. Still, considering Arya knew what deep shit she was in so much that she hid for a couple of days and then sent her wolf away, it's a little absurd to say that Sansa had no fucking clue.

I find the notion that Sansa understood the situation better than Ned to be laughable. Sure, this 11 year old girl who still thought that Joffrey and Cersei were good people understood the gravity of the situation better than the Lord of Winterfell. Man, Ned sure was dumb if Sansa understood more than him about what was happening during that mini trial. People should stop using the 'Sansa is just a child' excuse because clearly she is a political mastermind here. Understanding how fraught the situation is, she delicately navigates the situation to Arya's advantage and saved her life!

[Bonifer Tasty]

That 50 mile reach to negate someone based on their profile photo does you no favors.

I just thought it was funny... a way not to take such serious offense at being called a mysogynist. Pretty lame to hurl names like that, really, because I said that Arya was in a vengeance-spiral. I mean, seems like a reasonable way to describe someone who recites the name every night of people she wants to kill for vengeance. But you say potato, I say po-tah-to, I guess. I also pointed out the fallibilities of Tyrion's POV narrative, although I guess that just makes me anti-little person.

(And I bet that the reponse was a trolling post, even so!)

Has anyone ever asked Martin what he thinks of the Sansa sociopath/NO!sociopath debate? I wonder what he would say...

[The Sleeper]

It's pretty clear that Arya admitted to the wounds on Joffrey as she stated that Nymeria bit him a little. What's not clear is the story she told about why she hit him. The why seems to be a pretty big deal as it's already known that Arya and her wolf attacked him. Arya may have thought she was defending Mycah, and we are sympathetic to that for good reasons. But she said nothing to defend him when Joffrey first asked what was going on. Only that he was her friend, not why a lowly commoner had struck her.

I'm sorry, I was referring to Sansa observing Joffrey during the incident, not after the incident. During the incident she makes no mention to him reacting to Mycah with loathing or contempt.

I am fairly confident that Arya felt that the fact that Joffrey was about to cut her friend's face was good enough reason for her to hit him and that she said as much to Robert. Robert himself, later admits that he believed Arya's version of the events. Whatever Arya told the certain part is that Robert knew that Joffrey had done something worth hitting for and Cersei simply doesn't care.

I am also fairly certain that Sansa was tought that it was a minor's place to inflict chastisement, let alone such a cruel one. All these should have given off alarm bells. And in fact they did. Later on, after the journey Sansa thinks to herself that she thought she hated Joffrey but persuades herself to assign blame for the whole situation to Cersei and Arya.

Again, we don't know what stories they told because we didn't hear them. What we saw is that Arya struck the prince and, while we are sympathetic to Mycah, it was unprovoked. Arya did not speak up for Mycah when Joffrey asked what was going on. All Joffrey sees is a commoner hitting his future wife's sister and Arya says nothing at the time to confirm what was happening. Perhaps Sansa told the story exactly as she narrated it to us and Ned read between the lines and understood or assumed what all happened, but that's not how everyone would see it. Ned has the benefit of knowing that Arya absolutely is the sort to go off and order the butcher's son to play at swords, but this isn't the normal behavior for young ladies and others would have a hard time drawing those conclusions. It doesn't help anyone that Arya confirmed suspicions that she was violent and wild when she attacked Sansa for no reason at all.

I'm saying that Sansa understood the gravity of the situation more than Ned did. Telling the truth as she narrated it to us does no good for Arya, while modifying the story does no good for relations with the royal family. Still, considering Arya knew what deep shit she was in so much that she hid for a couple of days and then sent her wolf away, it's a little absurd to say that Sansa had no fucking clue.

You can claim selfish reasons all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that all of the adults in this situation utterly failed four children. They never should have been unsupervised, they never should have been drinking so heavily, the trial never should have been set up in a way that automatically pits family against family. Sansa wanting to be queen doesn't mean that she took joy in this. Arya wanted to be a knight, but no one claims she was selfish for that. They were each failed by adults they should have trusted. A confrontation at the river never should have happened.

I think you are attributing motivation to Joffrey that we know he doesn't have and sophistication to Sansa that she can't have being an 11 year old. Joffrey did not give a crap about Arya being hit, he wanted to show off to his girlfriend, show off his manliness and satisfy his sadistic urges. Even, a dumb fuck like Joffrey would have recognized to children playing. And yes, I believe Sansa was perfectly aware of that, because all these are obvious and we witness it throough her POV. As far as her behaviour goes when she was called to testify, she was intimidated, made to feel uncomfortable and chose to tell that she didn't remember to extricate herself from that position. I cannot accept a clear rational analysis of that situation from an 11 year old.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, blaming him would only earn her his and Cersei's animosity, something she definitely doesn't want. She understands this, so she doesn't blame Joffrey. I thought this was obvious...

[Queen Alienor]

I think you are attributing motivation to Joffrey that we know he doesn't have and sophistication to Sansa that she can't have being an 11 year old. Joffrey did not give a crap about Arya being hit, he wanted to show off to his girlfriend, show off his manliness and satisfy his sadistic urges. Even, a dumb fuck like Joffrey would have recognized to children playing. And yes, I believe Sansa was perfectly aware of that, because all these are obvious and we witness it throough her POV. As far as her behaviour goes when she was intimidated, made to feel uncomfortable and chose to tell that she didn't remember to extricate herself from that position. I cannot accept a clear rational analysis of that situation from an 11 year old.

:agree: People tend to forget that she was 11 and being brought before the king and queen to tell them wether or not the crown prince is a liar... She took the way that looked like the easiest. She never expected them to kill Lady. I'm pretty sure I would have reacted similar.

[Bonifer Tasty]

Ellie Iselin is a well written villain, not a character I identify with personally. Is that the best you have?

If you want to make the case that Sansa is a sociopath you should look up the diagnostic criteria for anti social personality disorder and show that she fits it.

Sansa isn't that kind of sociopath. She is a narcissistic personality disorder sociopath. They do have a lot in common, but an "antisocial personality disorder" victim would act out constantly to become the center of attention - and Sansa certainly does not do that.

Narcissists usually fly much further under the radar, and can go their whole lives undiagnosed...mainly because they are so charming.

Oh yeah, and I don't appreciate being called a mysogynist...

[Dr. Pepper]

I am not understanding what you are saying here. Sansa obviously told her father what happened.

Her version would be that:

Joffrey carved up Mycah's face

Arya hit Joffrey

Joffrey attacked Arya

Nymeria attacked Joffrey

No, you conveniently leave out all of what happened. Sansa's version would be:

See kid hit Arya

Joff asks why, Arya gives no answer while boy claims he was ordered to do so

Joff goes to defend Arya's honor and punish boy

Then, it would be

Joff cuts boy

Arya attacks

Joff attacks

Nymeria attacks.

That extra you leave out is pretty important to the story of what happened and it's very easy to see how Ned would view this one way while Cersei would view it another.

It's not all that complicated. What exactly is Ned reading between the lines and assume here? Arya's version would be the same. Why would there be a difference in Arya's version of the truth? Are you saying that Arya lied and told the King that Joffrey attacked her first and not Mycah?

Ned hears Arya version. Sansa is not in the room. Then he calls Sansa to corroborate her sister's account. Clearly he thinks the two versions are similar enough. Arya was brought directly to the king by Cersei. There was no contact between Sansa and Arya. So Ned thinks that Sansa giving Robert the exact version of events that Arya just told everyone helps her case. Everyone in that room would have known that Joffrey lied and Arya told the truth. Cersei would not have been able to demand a wolf's pelt as payback for her son's injuries because Nymeria's attack had saved Arya's life.

Joffrey had accused Arya, Nymeria and Mycah of attacking him unprovoked. Arya's case was more of self defense. She admitted to hitting Joffrey to defend Mycah.

It was a case of he said, she said. And the one witness who could help shed light on the event decided to lie and say that she did not remember.

As stated above, there would be discrepancies in Arya's and Sansa's stories if they are told how Arya saw it and how Sansa narrated it to us. Arya may include that she ordered Mycah to practice with her but neglect to mention that she did not tell Joffrey this. It's a pretty big issue. Joffrey has little reason to believe the story of a commoner if the lady in question doesn't speak up for him. In Sansa's version of the story, Joffrey was doing the right thing as he understood the way of the world and thus Arya's attack was unprovoked. She can claim that she believes that Arya did order Mycah did practice with her, but the facts of the matter is that Arya never spoke up about that at the time.

I find the notion that Sansa understood the situation better than Ned to be laughable. Sure, this 11 year old girl who still thought that Joffrey and Cersei were good people understood the gravity of the situation better than the Lord of Winterfell. Man, Ned sure was dumb if Sansa understood more than him about what was happening during that mini trial.

Oh, and the notion that Ned exhibited a high level of political acumen isn't laughable? Seriously? This is a guy that dragged his daughter in to testify without apparently being aware that the queen would want some sort of punishment for what happened. A guy who knew not to trust LF and still does in order to try to remove Joffrey from the throne. If Arya understood the situation even without knowing the specifics of the law, how in the world can you claim that Sansa had no clue?

[The Sleeper]

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, blaming him would only earn her his and Cersei's animosity, something she definitely doesn't want. She understands this, so she doesn't blame Joffrey. I thought this was obvious...

In most case, I see the argument presented as Sansa weighing her responsibility between her future and current family in the context of the political and legal realities and her own future as a spouse ... 11 year olds don't think like that, can't think like that. I can go so far that she has some rudimentary grasp of these things that she wouldn't be able to articulate. Her stance at the incident was an emotional, not a rational one.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

In most case, I see the argument presented as Sansa weighing her responsibility between her future and current family in the context of the political and legal realities and her own future as a spouse ... 11 year olds don't think like that, can't think like that. I can go so far that she has some rudimentary grasp of these things that she wouldn't be able to articulate. Her stance at the incident was an emotional, not a rational one.

I disagree. She knew exactly what she was doing, she knew pissing Joffrey and Cersei off would be a mistake.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Bonnifer Tasty, can I ask out of curiosity have you ever known a Sociopath? I have btw and i really don't see it in Sansa.

[The Sleeper]

snip

Sansa's version's first step would be: unidentified children playing with sticks.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yea at 11 you can tell that if you piss of the people you are being sent to live with for the rest of your life, then that life is going to be harder than if you try to ingratiate yourself.

[The Sleeper]

I disagree. She knew exactly what she was doing, she knew pissing Joffrey and Cersei off would be a mistake.

What are your reasons, for thinking that?

[Darksnider05]

Yea at 11 you can tell that if you piss of the people you are being sent to live with for the rest of your life, then that life is going to be harder than if you try to ingratiate yourself.

This just sounds like an excuse but either way she made her choice paid a price didn't learn anything.

[The Sleeper]

Yea at 11 you can tell that if you piss of the people you are being sent to live with for the rest of your life, then that life is going to be harder than if you try to ingratiate yourself.

At 11 I don't remember being able to conceptualize the rest of my life.

[Winter's Knight]

At 11 I don't remember being able to conceptualize the rest of my life.

But you were not raised knowing that you'd married and moving away by the time you turned sixteen.

[Bonifer Tasty]

Bonnifer Tasty, can I ask out of curiosity have you ever known a Sociopath? I have btw and i really don't see it in Sansa.

I have. But then again we all have (or are one ourselves). Latest thinking is that sociopaths (as defined by brain structure/function) are as many as 12% of the human population, irrespective of culture or location in the world. (We're not talking about violent people here, keep in mind, so-called "psychopaths", that is a dramatically smaller number). In addition, sociopathy has been observed in all primates, some felines, some canines, whales and dolphins. Apparently, it's a mammal thing. If you're interested in a good read on the subject, Sam Harris' "The Moral Landscape" is full in interesting information. He's a brain neuro-scientist and ethicist.