Catering to a wider audience? [SPOILERS]

[Addam of Hull]

Oh, you mean like Lyanna Stark?

I can only think what the boards would say about Talisa riding like a pro and fighting in a tournament like Rambo. Yeah, thank God Martin never wrote anything like that.

Lyanna really only qualifies as being beautiful. The Stark features are generally considered to be rather plain, though distinctive, and they certainly aren't considered exotic anywhere in Westeros. We don't know enough about her to say that she was outspoken or all that independent; you can make a case of capable, but isn't everyone of capable of something or other?

I rather think you're missing the big issue here. It's true that Martin has written characters that don't quite fit in with the world as a whole, but that works because it's part of a greater narrative arc that deal with the consequences of that. Brienne, for instance, does ride and fight in a tourney, but she's socially ostracized for that and her story arc deals heavily with the ideas of knighthood and how despite the fact that she can likely never be a knight, she's one of the people that represent the virtues and ideals that are associated with knighthood. Arya doesn't ride in a tourney, but her story starts as one where a plucky young tomboy rejects societies expectations of her and wants to learn to be a fighter only to come face to face with the horrors that fighters bring in war and slowly becomes desensitized to violence as a result. Neither of those arcs are possible without Arya and Brienne's rejection of social norms. I'm not as comfortable saying much about Lyanna, because we still don't know whole the story, but remember that, as Eddard says, her willfulness resulted in her dying young (and the realm bled as a result.)

And that's the problem with Talisa. Talisa being a noble woman from Volantis who becomes a nurse that attends to injured men on the battlefield isn't necessarily a problem on its own. It is a problem, though, when her rejection of the social norms and expectations don't have a greater point in the narrative and there are no real consequences for her as a result. Talisa exists just to be Robb's love interest. That's it. There's no personal character arc for her. And, again, that's not wholly an issue on its own either -- most of the principals have supporting casts that don't character arcs because it would be impractical -- but because Talisa suffers no consequences, her presence inherently weakens the narrative. If she can move through the Westerlands and Riverlands without fear of violence or rape, then every other character ought to be able to as well. That's not the reality and she stands out like a sore thumb as a result.

[Daske]

... but because Talisa suffers no consequences....

Well she does eventually! Big time.

If you mean particularly around the battlefield, I've said this before it's likely there would be plenty of other women knocking about the camp that we just don't happen to see - other nurses, cooks, servents, prostitutes, Silent Sisters, looters, maybe local women selling goods and so on.

Most soldiers I would imagine would hold the idea that you don't kill the person hanging around the battlefield that may save your life later that day. Nurses would likely be seen as a rarity and held in high regard. And she would at least partly be under the protection of the Silent Sisters who I'm defintely sure it would be taboo to harm. Plus the army is led by Robb who we know would execute even a lord in his army for murder off the battelfield!

Ironically Talisa was safer on the battlefield than in the company of the high lords & ladies. That's quite Martinesqe really!

[evita mgfs]

Soap opera has many aspects for analysis in the scope of its definition. Its original meaning implied an "episodic story", each segment ending with a "cliff-hanger" that guaranteed the predominately female audience members tune in the following day.

Homemakers enjoyed listening to their soaps on the radio or watching them on television while they did their laundry, ironing, and other such chores. The soap operas attracted sponsors that advertised their "soap" related products: laundry detergent, fabric softener, stain removers, etc.

Unlike the traditional "soap opera" which is written to be "heard", and later to be "watched", Martin's series is designed as a venue that requires more effort on the part of the audience: the novels of ASoIaF are created to be "read".

[Mr Fixit]

If she can move through the Westerlands and Riverlands without fear of violence or rape, then every other character ought to be able to as well. That's not the reality and she stands out like a sore thumb as a result.

Where does this silly interpretation come from? Who says she moves through the war zone alone? How do we know that? As far as we know, Talisa could be a part of organised relief effort of some sort we never got to see as it's not important. Actually, in her first scene, we do see her with another guy and his cart. Please, let's not constantly repeat made-up arguments conjured up from thin air to better make a point.

Nurses would likely be seen as a rarity and held in high regard. And she would at least partly be under the protection of the Silent Sisters who I'm defintely sure it would be taboo to harm.

Exactly! Talisa could very well have been in some sort of arrangement with Silent Sisters. There's plenty of camp followers behind every army, and I seriously doubt they were all males. Those people likely stick together as "noncombatants".

[Le Cygne]

She also begged him to leave with her at the end of season 2. She turned down Varys's bribe...the show writers kind of painted themselves into a corner with that one!

Great point. Shae has asked twice. She's been true to him. He's been false. He chose Sansa and Winterfell over Shae. If she does turn on him, the sympathy is with her, if only much of the audience didn't find her so annoying. Makes him killing her even worse. Maybe this is the big dramatic moment they are building to. They do like the big moment.

But they made it seem like he was the victim in the forced marriage. The interactive feature with Benioff, the marriage and the wedding night was told from Tyrion's point of view. How he felt. He's a proud man. He couldn't live with himself if he made her do this thing. They've so far absolved him or lessened nearly every bad thing he's done in the books.

He didn't admit to going last with Tysha (or in the show, they changed it so he only watched). They could be saving that for the Jaime conversation.

Like Arya not gradually working up to the Inn at the Crossroads kills. The stable boy was an accident on the show. She didn't kill in self-defense. Jaqen got her out of Harrenhal. She went nearly three seasons without blood on her hands (or dress, that was a great moment in the books during weasel soup). Then suddenly just went off. The big moment.

And like it wasn't enough for Sansa that the Lannisters killed her father. She was still bopping along with her BFFs Shae and Tyrion, laughing and smiling and telling jokes the day after her forced marriage when she barely escaped rape by two Lannisters (even though one chose not to). It was only after they killed her mother and brother that there's trouble in paradise.

One dead family member (plus a dead direwolf and relentless beatings by mailed knights and threats of rape and trying to kill her brother and take her family home and ...) = not enough to doom the marriage. Three dead family members = poor Tyrion, not a chance in hell for this marriage. And that's exactly the way they framed her grief, his conversation about how the marriage was doomed, and 5 seconds of her crying.

He didn't tell Sansa to take off her clothes, either, groping her was off the table, but on the show they had her start to take off her clothes without being told. In the books she asked him repeatedly, she was "obeying" and made him order her to, buying herself time, but more importantly showing the reader Tyrion intended to go through with it before he stopped, even telling her not cover herself.

Talisa exists just to be Robb's love interest. That's it.

Exactly, that's it in a nutshell, and we never find out what draws them together, apart from a mutual desire to bang, there was no love story. Her telling a story about the slave was just odd, there was nothing personal there to do with Robb, like if he'd admired nurses at some point in the story (like Sansa admired knights with Sandor), or something to make sense of the attraction. There was even less in her direction.

Soap opera has many aspects for analysis in the scope of its definition. Its original meaning implied an "episodic story", each segment ending with a "cliff-hanger" that guaranteed the predominately female audience members tune in the following day.

Homemakers enjoyed listening to their soaps on the radio or watching them on television while they did their laundry, ironing, and other such chores. The soap operas attracted sponsors that advertised their "soap" related products: laundry detergent, fabric softener, stain removers, etc.

Unlike the traditional "soap opera" which is written to be "heard", and later to be "watched", Martin's series is designed as a venue that requires more effort on the part of the audience: the novels of ASoIaF are created to be "read".

Evita for the win! Love your insights...

[Mr Fixit]

Exactly, that's it in a nutshell, and we never find out what draws them together, apart from a mutual desire to bang, there was no love story.

To be honest, the book does the same thing. Let's not pretend that Martin did a great job there. Robb simply shows up with his new bride in tow who forevermore remains faceless and nondescript. I mean, if you're going to predicate the climax of the entire War of the 5 Kings among other things on Robb's marriage to this Jeyne Westerling, you could at least devote some page count to the poor girl and her relationship with our doomed King in the North. Not to mention the abominable line with which Martin has Robb introduce her: "I took her castle and she took my heart." Tsk tsk.

See, we can all cherry pick lousy quotes to make our point!

[Le Cygne]

Robb-Jeyne made sense, she comforted him in a moment of overwhelmIng loneliness and grief, and after that, he chose the honorable thing, like his father would have done. It was tragic. Robb-Talisa did not make sense. He calmly chose to throw over family, friends, and countrymen for a hot chick he barely knew.

The other thing I don't like about the show scene, they had a chance to sell us that Talisa was something besides physical attraction, but had her tell a long boring story about the slave, she's passive for much of the story, it's more about the slave than Talisa, one almost wishes Robb and the slave could bang. And he doesn't speak, presumably so overcome with admiration for her admiration for the slave, but then what happens next, physical attraction takes over, and becomes the emphasis of the scene.

[Mother of Mountains]

Robb-Jeyne made as much sense as Churchill copping off with Gelli Raubl.

[evita mgfs]

Lyanna really only qualifies as being beautiful. The Stark features are generally considered to be rather plain, though distinctive, and they certainly aren't considered exotic anywhere in Westeros. We don't know enough about her to say that she was outspoken or all that independent; you can make a case of capable, but isn't everyone of capable of something or other?

I rather think you're missing the big issue here.

SNIP

And that's the problem with Talisa. Talisa being a noble woman from Volantis who becomes a nurse that attends to injured men on the battlefield isn't necessarily a problem on its own. It is a problem, though, when her rejection of the social norms and expectations don't have a greater point in the narrative and there are no real consequences for her as a result. Talisa exists just to be Robb's love interest. That's it. There's no personal character arc for her. And, again, that's not wholly an issue on its own either -- most of the principals have supporting casts that don't character arcs because it would be impractical -- but because Talisa suffers no consequences, her presence inherently weakens the narrative. If she can move through the Westerlands and Riverlands without fear of violence or rape, then every other character ought to be able to as well. That's not the reality and she stands out like a sore thumb as a result.

:bowdown: :bowdown: WOLFSWOOD: EXCELLENT OBSERVATIONS!

I could not pinpoint in words how troublesome Talisa is/was to the story, and you achieved voicing how I felt in your fine diction and syntax, and I commend your insight. But insight without a strong command of the language to communicate your analytical commentary is a problem I often have. Not you, my dear. You achieve both admirably: insight and writing skill. CONGRATULATIONS!

Robb-Jeyne made sense, she comforted him in a moment of overwhelmIng loneliness and grief, and after that, he chose the honorable thing, like his father would have done. It was tragic. Robb-Talisa did not make sense. He calmly chose to throw over family, friends, and countrymen for a hot chick he barely knew.

The other thing I don't like about the show scene, they had a chance to sell us that Talisa was something besides physical attraction, but had her tell a long boring story about the slave, she's passive for much of the story, it's more about the slave than Talisa, one almost wishes Robb and the slave could bang. And he doesn't speak, presumably so overcome with admiration for her admiration for the slave, but then what happens next, physical attraction takes over, and becomes the emphasis of the scene.

:bowdown: :bowdown: LE CYGNE: EXCELLENT POINTS. Most compelling is Robb's honor compared to his father's honor. I think you have touched upon Martin's purpose in the entire scenario. The reason it seems contrived and poorly developed on Martin's part is that Martin chooses not to give Robb his own POV narratives. This fact, to some degree, weakens a full-bodied characterization of Robb through his motivations.

[Daske]

Robb-Jeyne made sense, she comforted him in a moment of overwhelmIng loneliness and grief, and after that, he chose the honorable thing, like his father would have done. It was tragic. Robb-Talisa did not make sense. He calmly chose to throw over family, friends, and countrymen for a hot chick he barely knew.

....

How is being murdered with your spouse, unborn child and mother at a family wedding not tragic?

And Robb didn't know what was to come. It wasn't an intentional choice to f**k everything up. Selfish yes, naive yes, but not intentional. And not calmly, his weddding was very rushed.

[Draco_Dracul]

To be honest it doesn't make much sense in either version that Robb didn't have a quick wedding with Roslin as he crossed The Twins. To me the primary difference between Jeyne Westerling and Talisa Maegyr is that the later is a character that exists to be Robb's love interest and the former is a plot point meant to get Robb killed. Neither is great, but I'd rather have a character, even a weak one, to a plot point.

[Le Cygne]

How is being murdered with your spouse, unborn child and mother at a family wedding not tragic?

Melodrama.

[Professional Dragonslayer]

To be honest it doesn't make much sense in either version that Robb didn't have a quick wedding with Roslin as he crossed The Twins. To me the primary difference between Jeyne Westerling and Talisa Maegyr is that the later is a character that exists to be Robb's love interest and the former is a plot point meant to get Robb killed. Neither is great, but I'd rather have a character, even a weak one, to a plot point.

:agree:

[Khal-a-bunga]

To be honest it doesn't make much sense in either version that Robb didn't have a quick wedding with Roslin as he crossed The Twins. To me the primary difference between Jeyne Westerling and Talisa Maegyr is that the later is a character that exists to be Robb's love interest and the former is a plot point meant to get Robb killed. Neither is great, but I'd rather have a character, even a weak one, to a plot point.

Pretty much this.

[King of the Road]

To be honest it doesn't make much sense in either version that Robb didn't have a quick wedding with Roslin as he crossed The Twins. To me the primary difference between Jeyne Westerling and Talisa Maegyr is that the later is a character that exists to be Robb's love interest and the former is a plot point meant to get Robb killed. Neither is great, but I'd rather have a character, even a weak one, to a plot point.

Yeah.

[Mr Fixit]

Melodrama.

And now on Jeopardy, a million dollar question! The favourite word on the boards!

A: What is soap opera?

B: What is butchered?

C: What is whitewashed?

D: What is talentless hacks? (OK, that's two words.)

Seriously now, how is being murdered with your mother and a couple thousand bannermen tragic, while being murdered with your mother, pregnant wife, and a couple thousand bannermen is melodrama?

[Le Cygne]

Jeyne is a better character than Talisa.

She inhabits the world of the story, she's very much a part of that time and place. Robb's wife was never meant to be major character, not every character in a story is, we know what we need to know about her. She's idealistic, compassionate, loyal, appropriately defiant (tears her clothes in mourning). I like Jeyne, always did.

[Gwydden]

Jeyne is a better character than Talisa.

She inhabits the world of the story, she's very much a part of that time and place. Robb's wife was never meant to be major character, not every character in a story is, we know what we need to know about her. She's idealistic, compassionate, loyal, appropriately defiant (tears her clothes in mourning). I like Jeyne, always did.

Agreed. I'm glad GRRM said we'll be seeing her again. I would love it if she became a POV character, even if I doubt she will. Also, I'd say Talisa is more of a "plot point" than Jayne, so much so, she dies at the Red Wedding for extra tragic points, while Jeyne, despite apparently having fulfilled her purpose in the story (which is open to discussion) is still alive. Talisa's whole character developement is in love with Robb. Jeyne actually outlasts him.

[Aeternum]

Jeyne is a better character than Talisa.

She inhabits the world of the story, she's very much a part of that time and place.

Yep, this is what annoyed me about Talisa as well. She might as well have been a Martian, her anachronistic "strong sassy nurse" personality was so alien to Westeros that it simply didn't feel like a part of the time and place. The character wasn't developed any more than that.

What's even more confusing is that the show runners can do proto-feminist women in an accurate way, if they want to. Margaery Tyrell is far more strong and independent-minded than she's in the books, and yet Natalie Dormer's character feels and acts like a genuine part of the medieval setting. (In many ways, Margaery's power is related to her deceptive sweetness and seemingly fitting into her gender role - as a review of the third season put it, Margaery and Olenna are quietly chipping away at the "glass ceiling", while Cersei bangs her head against the ceiling and only knocks herself out.)

Compared to all this, Talisa feels hilariously out-of-place. I don't know who came up with the idea to have her on the show, but it was a shitty idea.

[Aeternum]

How is being murdered with your spouse, unborn child and mother at a family wedding not tragic?

It's cheap melodrama, for melodrama's sake.

Sure, the surprise abortion of Talisa caught a lot of viewers by surprise. It caused gasps of shock and horror, which was surely HBO's intention in the first place. In the end, though, it was nothing more than a cheap shocker, and Talisa's death didn't have any serious emotional value. Yeah, it caused a gut reaction in first-time viewers - but then again, if Benioff had edited the Red Wedding and cut away to a scene of a thousand bumblebees masturbating, it would have the exact same effect.