Catering to a wider audience? [SPOILERS]

[Annara Snow]

Except that "SanSan" was never a relationship in the books, the TV show, or anywhere else than the imaginations of some people.

Yes, like in the imagination of one Sansa Stark. Sometimes she uses the nick Alayne Stone. She's a well known SanSan shipper and fanfic author. You may have read her AU fanfic version of the Blackwater night, that one is particularly popular, or so I've heard:

"An Unforgettable Memory"

A fanfic by Sansa Stark

beta reader: Alayne Stone

rating: PG (for cruel kissing)

word count: 45

She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

(Credit to this goes to: http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/57811166901/exitpursuedbyasloth-corseque)

GRRM's writing in the Blackwater episode, and subsequent comments, are pretty conclusive. Sandor's behavior to Sansa was meant to show Sandor's sense of compassion and morality under his hard surface, nothing more.

Which comments are those? Maybe these:

June 24, 1999

THE HOUND AND SANSA

Moreta12: I understand, I've heard your opinion on that. In ACOK, it seems that the relationship between the Hound and Sansa had romantic undertones. Is that true?

GeoRR: Well, read the book and decide for yourself.

Moreta12: I've read the book and I've debated those particular scenes with a few others. Half say that it's romantic and half say it's platonic. I've taken the romantic stance.

GeoRR: It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you

Moreta12:Yes, but it seem like evidence points towards romantic undertones. Will the Hound appear later?

GeoRR: Yes, the Hound will be in STORM OF SWORDS. In fact, I just finished writing a big scene with him.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hound_and_Sansa

or these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLynybVOi2I

GRRM: And I do know that there are all these people who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So, that's... interesting.

Interviewer 1: Ah, the TV show has sort of played with that a little, probably stoked those fires, I would think...

GRRM: Sure, and I've played with it in the books... I mean, there's something there, but it's still... it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Interviewer 2: I'm not going to say that hasn't crossed my mind. Maybe I need to join one of those fansites and learn more...

GRRM was pretty clear that he didn't intend it as a pedophilic romance between a grown man and a 12-year-old, thank fuck.

Ah yes, because GRRM is known for not writing about romances between underage girls and adult men. No, sir. He would never write about something like that... :)

[Le Cygne]

"Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her...

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her...

"Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him." - WOIAF app

GRRM: I do know there's all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that's interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I've played with it in the books.

Tom Merritt: Yeah, yeah.

GRRM: There's something there. But it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Veronica Belmont: I'm not going to say that that hasn't crossed my mind. - Interview, Geek and Sundry

"Also, I think that fact that The Hound is clearly in love with her, in a Beauty/Beast sort of way, helps endear her to us." - Review, IGN

"But while Bronn distracts himself with a presumably hired lady love, Sandor keeps a rather affectionate candle burning for Sansa. Perhaps making a reference to flame isn't exactly appropriate, considering that Sandor was scared enough of the fire to desert his post. But that does bring up another subtle contrast between himself and fire-starter Bronn, doesn't it?" - Review, TV Overmind

"Why, oh, why wouldn't Sansa go with The Hound at this point? Their shared scenes have always been a pleasure to watch, but none more so than their final one last night. (Though he never asked his little bird for a song, did he?)" - Review, Tor

"Sansa argues that Stannis won't hurt her, which the Hound quickly explains that yes he will, he's a killer. Like him, like Ned, like Robb. And to look him in the face so she can get used to seeing men that kill—they're all around her, making the world what it is. She looks at him and is no longer afraid. , and gosh, he's just gruff because he's scared! Tale as old as time… song as old as rhyme!" - Review, Hey, Don't Judge Me

"But as fire raged outside King's Landing the Hound finally had enough, handing in his tersely memorable notice and pausing only to offer sanctuary to Sansa on his way. Sadly his little bird rejected his offer – but their surprisingly tender scene provided a brief respite amid the death and destruction." - Review, The Guardian

"I never thought it would be possible, but the Hound made me tear up a bit. His conversation with Sansa was so heartfelt. Their relationship has been building up to this, but it was still surprising. Will Sansa get out with him in time? I’m guessing that she will be too late once again." - Review, CliqueClack

"The Hound is obviously soft for Sansa - I think she represents a pureness and innocence he can never possess, and of course there is her beauty, such a beauty that it reminds the Hound of his inner and outer ugliness, and so she becomes a kind of symbol of all things clean that he feels motivated to protect, and yet Sansa refuses him." - Review, (Not So) Daily

"And Sansa, well…she’s clearly getting much better at manipulating Joffrey, and her scenes with Cersei, and most notably the scene with the Hound (Rory McCann) were some of the best we’ve seen with the character." - Review, What Culture

"Sandor Clegane (Rory McCann) surprised us in this episode. His "eff it all" attitude, drinking and his offer to take Sansa (Sophie Turner) away were at the top of the list. He's clearly had enough of his employer and doesn't care who knows it. We must say, we probably would have fled with him if we were Sansa." - Review, E Online

"War forces us to consider our allegiances, and in that battle the Hound realizes that his King is not worth protecting with the flames nipping at his heels. That he feels differently about Sansa says something about the character, something the show has been subtly laying the groundwork for all season." - Review, Cultural Learnings

- Blackwater, 2x09 Reviews

SANSA (to SANDOR): What are you doing here?

Lena Headey (to SANSA): He loves you!...

SANDOR (to SANSA): I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe.

Neil Marshall (director): We re-shot this scene because the first version we did also had a song in it... He made Sansa sing, but it was the song that she had just finished singing, so coming off the back of the scene it would have...

Peter Dinklage (singing the song from the Disney movie): Really? Beauty and the Beast ... - DVD commentary, 2x09

SANDOR (looking SANSA over appreciatively): Who do you think sent me?

GRRM: That beautiful scene between the Hound, Sandor Clegane, and Sansa. - DVD commentary, 1x08

The shot framing Sansa and the Hound:

D.B. Weiss: The developing relationship between these two...

David Benioff: Yep. Much more to come... - DVD commentary, 1x10

"The Hound/Sansa relationship is still a big part of the show." - Bryan Cogman, scriptwriter

"He's attracted to her." - David Benioff, showrunner

Sansa Stark, Ward of the Court

... Her vulnerability has also attracted the interests of the Hound and Littlefinger...

Sandor Clegane, "The Hound", Ex-Kingsguard

... He bears no love for his brother Gregor, known as "The Mountain," but has a soft spot for Sansa Stark, a frequent object of Joffrey's cruel whims...

- HBO Viewers Guide, Season 3

"The women's group talked about the Sansa-Sandor relationship a bit. We all found it interesting but none of us were into the whole San-San pairing thing, though we mentioned that we found it a bit odd how that was one of the biggest ships out there. We did all feel it was an important relationship that we hoped would be shown in all its complexities on screen." - HBO Focus Group

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic." - GRRM, context for ages

"One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex. We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that's based on medieval history. They didn't have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books." - GRRM, context for ages

So Twitter was spiking pretty hard while Sansa was being tossed about like a rag-doll. And then it basically spiked to Insane. Good bye Twitter. Hello re-start computer.

@JoeBuffaloWins: The hound!!!!

@Kifty1n: AHHHHHHHHHHHHSANDORSANDORSANDORyesyesyes

@karltmeakin: SANDOR CLEGANE: WAR ZONE.

@MercifulMalacai: The Hound is takin a bite outta crime

@cocolicious46: The Hound be killing the SHYT outta bammas!!

@CMR365: I think the Hound just field dressed somebody

@truebloodandtv: Sandor Clegane is such a boss

@mycropht: Yes! The Hound Represent!!!! Rory McCann FTW

@jpglion: Well done, Hound.

So I got back on and the scroll was at a quasi-managable 140 entries per refresh.

Oh, then dude spoke.

@JalinMarieC: Youre alright now little bird, youre alright

And there went my screen again.

@juiimanji: SANSAN. IT IS TV!CANON.

@siriuslyserious: @GameOfRos: Ros is a SanSan fan. #GameOfThrones I think Im becoming one too

@Wee_Birdie: Oh my *fans self*

@LeahMaycock: I do like The Hound. A tortured soul but maybe a good heart?

@LynchLyfe: Awww I think he loves her.

@Wee_Birdie: Totally worth the wait. I may have melted into a small puddle

@lucia_g89: Omg that sansa scene. Im still shaking

@Kiftyln: oh my god how can a burned man be so smexy idk

@suleikhasnyder: I love that Tyrion and the Hound have such care for Sansa. Aw. #yeahishipit

@Paco_ICEandFIRE: HE DID IT FOR LOVE, TYRION! HE DIDNT SAVE SANSA FOR YOU!!!!

The San/San tweets were still off the charts by the time shit calmed down. There was a brief scene between Sansa and Shae

@jmnzl: Shae is being useful?! What.

No one cared. Most of the people were still spazzing out over San/San. - Tweets, winteriscoming.net

[Karmarni]

Yes, like in the imagination of one Sansa Stark. Sometimes she uses the nick Alayne Stone. She's a well known SanSan shipper and fanfic author. You may have read her AU fanfic version of the Blackwater night, that one is particularly popular, or so I've heard:

She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

Funny! I like that Sansa is the author of her own version of that night. I always liked the Hound, but when Sansa started liking him, I came to love her for it.

I'm sorry to see the show shy away from anything romantic with Sandor and Sansa. If you look at the most popular threads on this board, you can see that after R + L = J, the 'what the heck is going on with Sansa and Sandor" threads have high view counts. Readers want to know and are interested. The show has failed to make that a storyline and that is a shame.

As for catering to a wider audience, yes, I think they are, and I can't imagine that they wouldn't due to the medium they are working in. The main cast of characters have lost some of their flavor, but that happens in adaptations to the screen. The minor characters and the invented characters received way too much screen time and all of them seem to be playing to the crowd. Think Ros, Pod, Shae (she's invented to me for the show), Talisa. I'd add Margaery and Loras to that list too.

I still want to see the story. I'm hoping Season 4 will not go so far out in left field that the motivations of the characters change so much that I no longer recognize them.

[Le Cygne]

I like the story, too. And the funny thing is, they aged her up, she's 15 on the show (she was a month from her birthday when she had to marry Tyrion). That's age of consent in much of Europe, some countries it's younger, some it's a little older at 16:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24

[Woman of War]

I like slightly randy Sam, it frees him up a little. That was a good adaptation change. I loved when he gave Gilly the thimble, and told Jon Snow she's not a goat. I just love John Bradley and Hannah Murray in the roles. I kept waiting for I think some storylines benefit from not being with their favorite characters, like anyone within an inch of Tyrion will have their storylines sucked dry and spit out. I was so disappointed when they bollocksed up SanSan by turning Sansa into a Stepford Wife and Sandor into Hodor, but this made up for it.

I truly hated show Robb at that moment and never felt the same about him again. Love the actor, hated the character. Just want to make that clear, the actors are wonderful...

I believe D&D like the character of Sam very much. After all he got the finale of season two, I think they see this character's importance.

........like anyone within an inch of Tyrion will have their storylines sucked dry and spit out.

This is simply not true. Cat was great at the Crossroad Inn and in the Vale, Lysa was wonderful acting and Bronn is awesome. Then we have Tywin and Varys, even Olenna in invented scenes: The best! Cersei is nuanced wonderfully in Tyrion's presence. They all are highlighted by Tyrion and Tyrion by them.

There are the cases of Shae and Sansa. I am not sure about my opnion of Shae but I could never dismiss book Shae as "what did Tyrion expect, she is a whore" like many posters do in a demeaning manner. And I like HBO Shae, only I do not know where the show will go with her.

Ok, so Sansa. I of course realize that she is your favorite character while Tyrion definitely is not.

And if "........anyone within an inch of Sansa will have their storylines sucked dry and spit out" you would not complain while I would. A matter of likes and interpretation and D&D are free to disagree with you.

They have changed Sansa, for the sake of the movies they have aged her up, like all child characters. And they have chosen an actress that does not look the least little bit like fourteen but rather like twenty. So they have made a love story including sex on screen possible in future series, the age reason is void as soon as the character is close to sixteen.

They are free to show a relationship with Baelish, with Sandor or with Tyrion (or with Aegon, imo not unlikely) as endgame, as interim relationship or as unhappy ending. And I think they will make use of it.

And nobody denies that Sandor was infatuated by Sansa, that his arc may be thoroughly shaped by it if Martin decides to make him leave his island. On the other hand he may have left this behind along with drinking, whoring and murdering, who knows. He might be Sansa's true knight and die for her. How have D&D made this impossible by their filming? They have given subltle hints that may play out or not, just like in the books. What they have not done is follow the overinterpretation by some fans.

Sansa being dumb: yes, she was too naive with Margaery. "Did your mother....?", really! But maybe they had to counteract her so very adult looks, to rub it in how young she is supposed to be. The "sheep shift" smalltalk was meant to contrast her with streetwise Shae.

And in the wedding scenes Sansa had a lot of dignity, no dislike by the moviemakers at all.

[Woman of War]

Excuse me for quoting myself but there has been invested so much thought into costume design for Sansa that I cannot believe in any dislike forr the character.

"There are very subtle signals sent by the choice of costume, compared to the books really an enrichment of the story:

Not only are the heavy velvet and moiré materials, chenille with gobelin patterns, designed by their sheer weight to create a distance between the female person and her environment, as befits a noble lady. They are also a means to alienate the body from the person. These materials do not, like erotic corsage or the equivalent to modern shapewear, serve to enhance the beauty of the young woman in them, they cover and encase, they do nothing to emphazise feminity, basically they are anti-erotic.

And Sophie Turners arms are bare and vulnerable in every sense, a childlike vulnerability of exposure since the dress does nothing to caress the skin, to soften the contrast between clothing as cage and bare skin. There is no organza sleeve, not even a bracelet to connect the body and its wrapping. This dress looks like a very poor advice by a technically perfect yet not really gifted designer - if it were meant to be made for a happy bride. But it isn't. In fact this "poor" choice is a very sophisticated one: a choice of alienation. These fabrics used may be costly but they are no longer fashionable for RL clothing, they are furniture and decoration materials, representative and not meant to create an atmosphere of comfort. Stylish only in an environment of shabby city chic as twisted quotation, deconstructing representation by irony or as vintage fashion. Sansa is basically clad in upholstery sofa decoration or heavy curtains, if in the most elegant manner.

Like they did in our world back in history those heavy costly fabrics signal class differences. Not only are they expensive and this is emphazised by interweaving valuable materials like gold threads. That signal is stronger than the money aspect: gold threads are useless, even counterproductive since the metal in the fabric will not shield a lady from cold. The high noblity can afford useless, even dysfunctional luxury, like golden armour as opposed to solid steel armour. And costumes like that distance the noble body from the dirty poor in a literal as in a metaphorical sense.

Then why the bare arms, so bluntly presented by the costume designers? The cloak of protection! They knew that the situation where Tyrion has to clad his bride into that cloak will play an important role in the story. And "being clad" cannot be better emphazised than by naked skin before the cloak is wrapped around. Sansa's arms are an invitation to be covered, to be clad. While the cloak Tyrion holds in itself may be beautiful but it does nothing to counter the impression of heavy dullness created by the colour combination. We will see how the Margaery marriage might be presented but in general this cloaking situation has less the character of protection but of putting a heavy weight on the bride in those loveless marriages. Note that there was no cloak when Robb and Talisa married, no weighing down the bride in the only love marriage we have witnessed so far.

And then look at the colours: they are worst for her. This is not golden brilliance, this is greenish olive toned gold with a hint of mustard. The worst for Turner's complexion since in fact she is not a redhead but a true blonde wo is dyed red and therefore should prefer cooler tones. Of course this is deliberate. No costume designer would ever do that as "mistake". Sansa is wrong in that dress in every sense, she is a thing in it, clad into a shell. And we know that the KL hairstyle does nothing for her either, she is a stranger in her own body. Statuesque abstract beauty devoid of erotics.

I could go on for pages and talk about that ridiculous underwear shift, highly impausible for any wedding night, the child's dress for the child in a woman's body, looking like rags on the rather voluptous broad shouldered actress who has the air of a twenty year old, naive and yet more Anita Ekberg potential than Grace Kelly. What a thoughtful choice, finest materials turned into rags by circumstances.

And people talk about the series not being thoughtful with the character Sansa! The nonverbal message sent by the choice of costume could not be more precise, every nuance totally wrong and yet a creative masterpiece."

[Le Cygne]

Again, she's 15. At least a month has gone by since the wedding night by now. And as I demonstrated, 14, 15, 16 is the age of consent in modern day Europe, so she's not a child in a modern sense, either. Her book story is much better. There have been other shows with a romance between teenager and an older man, and certainly many films, and these are not portrayed negatively, this is not so recent history, and it's certainly the way it is in Westeros, as the author has repeatedly stated (see above).

In the books, Sansa would be horrified to tell a poop joke at all, much less to a Lannister, she's a hostage and they are at war with her family. She's a lady. She's on her own, and she gains strength from that experience. She doesn't have Shae, the heart of gold prostitute (who Tyrion made Sansa's maid so he could conveniently screw her) to babysit her in the books. She isn't laughing and smiling after being forcibly married to a Lannister. She's profoundly disturbed by the whole experience, and she should be.

Those who want Sansa with Tyrion prefer Sansa on the show, even though there's no basis for this on the books. The writing is just not there. The author closes doors, again and again. Never. The word she says to Tyrion after he commands her to undress and gropes her (and in the books, she made him order her to take off her clothes, in the show, she just started taking them off). Twice when she learns Tyrion is dead, she doesn't even pause for breath, she just goes on to thinking something else.

It's interesting that you say we are engaging in "overinterpretation" and then bring up the "cloak of protection," because in the books, Sansa sees Sandor's cloak that way. Even before he gives it to her, she notices him wearing it (she notices him a lot, and has done so since the start of the series, he's in every Sansa chapter but one). And there are romantic feelings going on between them in the books. I provided a lot of external/official evidence above. I'll be happy to provide quotes from the text.

But Sansa put Sandor's cloak on herself. Twice. She didn't kneel for Tyrion's cloak because she didn't want it. She doesn't see Tyrion's cloak as a "cloak of protection" but a symbol of oppression. She doesn't keep Tyrion's cloak with her summer silks or think about it again and again, but she does this with Sandor's cloak. She reflects that marriage to Tyrion was a "mockery of a marriage" and he told her a "Lannister lie" the wedding night and he is "no friend" and ...

She doesn't wish he was there. She wishes the Hound was there. Again and again. That's the story we wanted to see. If you think that's not a good story, well, I disagree. But there's no "overinterpretation" going on. We didn't write the books.

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside... she could scarcely imagine it.

[Annara Snow]

Those who want Sansa with Tyrion prefer Sansa on the show, even though there's no basis for this on the books.

Why would people want show!Sansa with Tyrion because they like show!Sansa? It's not like she's attracted to him on the show and it's not like he loves her on the show, and it's not like either of them wanted that marriage on the show.

In my experience, the majority of people who want Sansa with Tyrion don't like Sansa at all and just see her as some sort of a prize for Tyrion.

Funny! I like that Sansa is the author of her own version of that night. I always liked the Hound, but when Sansa started liking him, I came to love her for it.

I'm sorry to see the show shy away from anything romantic with Sandor and Sansa. If you look at the most popular threads on this board, you can see that after R + L = J, the 'what the heck is going on with Sansa and Sandor" threads have high view counts. Readers want to know and are interested. The show has failed to make that a storyline and that is a shame.

But the romantic undertones between Sandor and Sansa are very ambiguous and understated in the first two books - there's almost nothing explicitly romantic between them while they are around each other. I have other problems with the portrayal of their relationship on the show - they played down their interactions in general, IMO they failed to convey the depth of their connection and the influence they had on each other, and they definitely failed to show Sandor being vulnerable in front of Sansa and Sansa comforting him (that's where the change of making LF tell his story really screwed things up), which strips their relationship of important layers - to the show viewer, it's all about him protecting her and her liking having a protector; this shortchanges their dynamic, makes Sandor less compelling as a character and seriously shortchanges Sansa's portrayal, failing to show her own strength and compassion. And they barely even had a single conversation about knights and songs, which is such a big theme in the books - they came the closest in the scene where she thanks him for saving her, but it was still not quite the same.

But when it comes to romantic undertones, they weren't explicit in the first two books to begin with, and judging from the statements by D&D and comments by some of the actors (Dinklage and Headey, who haven't even read any of the books) as well as comments by many reviewers and show-only fans, there was no plan to remove romantic undertones from their dynamic, and their relationship came off as ambiguous and potentially romantic as it did in the books. You can feel something's there even in the few scenes and moments they did get on the show, and I think it helped that the actors had really great chemistry.

Now, unlike the books, the show is pretty bad with conveying that people think about each other while they're not around each other (unless they go the opposite way, as with Sam talking non-stop about Gilly when she's not there - and that's something they can't do with Sansa at least). That's an issue beyond just Sansa/Sandor. But there's nothing stopping the showrunners from trying to convey that in the next seasons. If Sandor doesn't have a single thought about Sansa before his "death" and doesn't even react to the news of her marriage, and if Sansa is not even hinted at thinking about him at any point in the next couple of seasons, then I'd say they did drop the storyline; until then, I wouldn't assume that.

[Le Cygne]

That's funny, nothing "ambiguous" about the official app saying he was infatuated with her from the moment he saw her. I saw it in the books right away. All the cloak stuff was very obvious. No one would ever hurt you again or I'd kill them. He made a move to kiss her. She cupped his cheek. Both worded the same way in other romances in the books. She even defended him instinctively when she thought the washing women were dissing him (she didn't get the sexual overtones, but she got it, that was brilliant). A subtle romance is still a romance.

Beauty and the Beast is a romance. Sansa and the Hound. He lifts lines directly from the fairytale and uses them in the very first book. How much more obvious could this be.

"Oddly gentle." "Not ungently." "Almost gently." He touches her four separate times in the serpentine scene alone. He's always there when she needs him. He risks his life to save hers. He brags about it to her.

The song stuff was very obvious, too. He asks for a song. She says she'll sing Florian and Jonquil. He raises her face to his and says no, one day I'll have a song from you. That's about as obvious as a sledgehammer.

He makes comments about her breasts. She's stripped just so he can give it to her (if she hadn't been, there would have been no reason for him to give her his cloak, and GRRM wanted him to give her that cloak), then she clutches his cloak to her bare breasts and thinks it feels like velvet against her skin.

And when a man gives a woman his cloak and pledges to keep her safe, that's the Westeros marriage ceremony (which she tells us she's dreamed about a tall man giving her a thousand times). He tells her no one would ever hurt you again or I'd kill them. She puts on his cloak.

He yanks her closer for a kiss. She cups his cheek. The same way he wrote these scenes for other stories, too. Kiss. Caress. Romantic. And the dagger, twisting it into her neck, that's phallic symbolism and all over the books, too. Couldn't be more obvious.

She prays to "save him". He boards the ship Prayer. She sings a song to save him from war. He tells her "I could keep you safe" and then goes to kiss her. And she's remembering that he did. There's a very obvious connection he's drawing between these two people.

"Little bird," he said once more. He calls her little bird six times in that last scene together. That's romantic.

And that's just the first two books. While they are around each other.

Many classic romances are far less romantic than this. And far less obvious. This is classic stuff, and he's piling it on. Love doesn't come out of nowhere. The part where the two people fall in love, that's part of the romance.

Most fans I've talked to, and I have talked directly to many, are very disappointed that, as the other poster states, they are shying away from the romance on the show. Much of the above was not on the show.

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

That's funny, nothing "ambiguous" about the official app saying he was infatuated with her from the moment he saw her. I saw it in the books right away. All the cloak stuff was very obvious. No one would ever hurt you again or I'd kill them. He made a move to kiss her. She cupped his cheek. Both worded the same way in other romances in the books. She even defended him instinctively when she thought the washing women were dissing him (she didn't get the sexual overtones, but she got it, that was brilliant). A subtle romance is still a romance.

The fact that GRRM always had the dysfunctional and sociopathic Hound refer to Sansa as "little bird" was definitely a term of endearment. Sansa was a "hated noble" who he could crush in an instant, but he didn't....in the books he "saved" her 3 times from worse fates. He put a knife to her throat, probably more to test himself than to hurt her. He let her push him away when he got too close. He lusted, he commanded her to sing, he withdrew in self-disgust. Disturbing, yes...but I believe this is GRRM rewriting his "Beauty and the Beast" scenes in a way that he could accept, not in a "made for TV" viewer mindfuck.

Even GRRM couldn't go through with it though....instead he led the Hound toward Arya, who, in a crazy way, is more his style.

....She doesn't have Shae, the heart of gold prostitute (who Tyrion made Sansa's maid so he could conveniently screw her) to babysit her in the books.

Now that is funny! A "heart of gold" indeed! I had to spit up some coffee when I read that.

By the way, I enjoy your take on Sansa. She has many monsters swirling and dancing about her....will she dance as well? And if she does dance and rise above her snow castle naiveté, is that when the monsters will pounce?

[Le Cygne]

By the way, I enjoy your take on Sansa. She has many monsters swirling and dancing about her....will she dance as well? And if she does dance and rise above her snow castle naiveté, is that when the monsters will pounce?

Thank you. How could I have forgotten little bird (goes back to add it). Let me think about this.

[Born Sinner]

I like the story, too. And the funny thing is, they aged her up, she's 15 on the show (she was a month from her birthday when she had to marry Tyrion). That's age of consent in much of Europe, some countries it's younger, some it's a little older at 16:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24

1. She's 14 in the show

2. 15 (or 16, not sure) might be the age of consent here in Europe but that doesn't mean it's tolerated. Also, the hound looks like a giant titan and it would creep some viewers out to see any kind of romantic relationship between the Hound and Sansa

[Addam of Hull]

1. She's 14 in the show

2. 15 (or 16, not sure) might be the age of consent here in Europe but that doesn't mean it's tolerated. Also, the hound looks like a giant titan and it would creep some viewers out to see any kind of romantic relationship between the Hound and Sansa

If creeping out viewers was a concern for the producers, then making an adaptation of ASOIAF was the wrong choice. There's a ton of unnerving, generally creepy stuff in the books.

I'm also reminded of how they referred to season 2 as the "season of romance" and then failed to do much at all with one of the few relevant romantic storylines from ACOK. Actually, I'm cringing at the thought.

[Le Cygne]

1. She's 14 in the show

2. 15 (or 16, not sure) might be the age of consent here in Europe but that doesn't mean it's tolerated. Also, the hound looks like a giant titan and it would creep some viewers out to see any kind of romantic relationship between the Hound and Sansa

1. She's a month from her birthday on day of the wedding. She's 15 now.

2. They actually did go there on the show. There's a scene GRRM wrote where Sandor stares at Sansa's boobs and sticks out his tongue, that is pretty much the whole scene, them looking at each other, and GRRM called it "beautiful". See all the external evidence above, the author and showrunners have said he's attracted to her and they did go there on the show. The Blackwater scene was written/filmed as in the books but they cut the song. To date nothing sexual has happened in the books. Viewers and reviewers said they liked the relationship and wanted her to go with him, called it Beauty and the Beast, love, etc. It's a medieval fantasy on HBO and they can show romance without getting graphic (there are lots of examples on other shows and movies). If they can handle the Red Wedding, they can handle two people having loving feelings about each other from a distance.

[Le Cygne]

If creeping out viewers was a concern for the producers, then making an adaptation of ASOIAF was the wrong choice. There's a ton of unnerving, generally creepy stuff in the books.

I'm also reminded of how they referred to season 2 as the "season of romance" and then failed to do much at all with one of the few relevant romantic storylines from ACOK. Actually, I'm cringing at the thought.

Agreed. This isn't Teletubbies.

About age of consent, pulling out a few examples, it is 14 in Germany, Italy, Hungary, and 15 in Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Sweden, and 16 in the UK, to name a few.

[King of the Road]

Agreed. This isn't Teletubbies.

About age of consent, pulling out a few examples, it is 14 in Germany, Italy, Hungary, and 15 in Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Sweden, and 16 in the UK, to name a few.

In the UK a call was just rejected by David Cameron which proposed lowering the age of consent to 15.

[Annara Snow]

That's funny, nothing "ambiguous" about the official app saying he was infatuated with her from the moment he saw her. I saw it in the books right away. All the cloak stuff was very obvious. No one would ever hurt you again or I'd kill them. He made a move to kiss her. She cupped his cheek. Both worded the same way in other romances in the books. She even defended him instinctively when she thought the washing women were dissing him (she didn't get the sexual overtones, but she got it, that was brilliant). A subtle romance is still a romance.

I'm not talking about the official app. I'm talking about what's in the book and in the show. (And personally I don't believe that he thought of her in sexual sense in the first book, when he calls her "child" - I don't see that until the second book, when he's noticing that she's starting to look like a woman. That's if you take the word "infatuation" in today's sense that involves sexual attraction. I have no problem with it if it's meant in the same way that I'd say Ned had a big infatuation with/mancrush on young Robert, even though I don't think he ever wanted to have sex with him.)

I saw strange chemistry and the possibility of future romantic connection between them straight away, but it's not that "obvious", especially not before BW, that other people couldn't plausibly argue based on those two books that their connection was not of romantic or sexual nature. If it were that obvious, we wouldn't have threads like this on this forum, and people wouldn't have been having debates such as the one on the So Spake Martin website I quoted earlier, and GRRM wouldn't be telling them to decide it for themselves:

Moreta12: I understand, I've heard your opinion on that. In ACOK, it seems that the relationship between the Hound and Sansa had romantic undertones. Is that true?

GeoRR: Well, read the book and decide for yourself.

Moreta12: I've read the book and I've debated those particular scenes with a few others. Half say that it's romantic and half say it's platonic. I've taken the romantic stance.

GeoRR: It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you

GRRM has also himself admitted that he "played with it" but that he believed it to be subtle and was surprised that so many people have responded to it.

Also, the hound looks like a giant titan and it would creep some viewers out to see any kind of romantic relationship between the Hound and Sansa

That's hilarious. :lol: So, by that logic, Tyrion shouldn't have a romantic relationship with anyone who's not a dwarf? And poor Sandor, Bronze Yohn Royce, Lem Lemoncloak, Duncan the Tall, Greatjon Umber etc. should only have hooked up with women over 6'2". Same thing with women like the Queen of Thorns or the Red Widow from the Dunk and Egg stories, their choices of men would be pretty limited to those really short. (I hope you haven't read Sworn Sword, or that pairing would creep you out! Duncan was about 7' and the Red Widow wasn't even 5'.)

It looks like Hayden Panetierre is not having any problems, though...

If creeping out viewers was a concern for the producers, then making an adaptation of ASOIAF was the wrong choice. There's a ton of unnerving, generally creepy stuff in the books.

Quoted for truth.

[Born Sinner]

As a fan of both books and tv show I have to admit the books are clearly better, for sure but many people even say the showrunners are doing a bad job.

They tell you that it is very different from the books (which I agree to some degree) and often name the unnecessary changes that the show has made as an indicator for the show to be bad and D&D to be bad writers/showrunners.

I have to say this is not the case at all. GOT is the most expensive show on TV right now with an immensely huge cast. It isn't very easy to produce it I suppose, so it's unavoidable to make everything right. The show is critically acclaimed and got a large fanbase and was nominated for many Emmys ( no indicator for a good television show but it's something).

Criticism is good and I agree with many mistakes this forum points out but turning this against the showrunners and claiming their incompetence comes of rather ignorant. I'm glad it fell in their hands and wasn't ruined as some hollywood movie trilogy.

[Le Cygne]

There's something there, he said. He usually just says decide for yourself, for all the other stories, that's the hallmark of interpretive fiction, but here, in this interview after the Blackwater episode airs, he not only brings Sansa/Sandor up himself, but says there's something there (and he says "interesting"):

GRRM: I do know there's all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that's interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I've played with it in the books.

Tom Merritt: Yeah, yeah.

GRRM: There's something there. But it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Veronica Belmont: I'm not going to say that that hasn't crossed my mind.

Here's what he says when asked about other stories:

"Man, that's something that's for the readers to figure out. If it's a symbol that I've carefully worked in there in a subtle way, it's because I'm trying to be suggestive, to make people think. If you see it and start wondering about it, that's on purpose. But I'm not going to start singing out, 'It's a symbol! It's a symbol!' Each reader has to read it and decide for themselves what the symbols are and what they mean. That's part of what you do in a complex work of art, one that's deliberately structured and is relatively ambiguous, so that each reader can draw their own conclusions."

The external evidence (using the literary term for author and in this case scriptwriter comments on the work) including the the official app supports that he has written a romance. Such things as lines from Beauty and the Beast, and a kiss and a caress, and little bird six times, those are obvious clues to most readers. But a close reading uncovers even more.

Another good tease, he's switching names in the answer:

Question: Will Sandor and Sansa meet again in the future?

GRRM: Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.

[Le Cygne]

In the UK a call was just rejected by David Cameron which proposed lowering the age of consent to 15.

Interesting! Essentially, it's an acknowledgement that it's happening. Teenagers are going to have consensual sex. It's like fighting the tide to think otherwise.