Winnief Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Some choice quotes from one of my favorite sites-racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com, related to the broader implications of what violating the taboo of Guest Right means for Westeros... This is from site author/monitor Steve Attewell himself... I would add something else here: the Red Wedding makes any kind of political agreement more difficult to achieve, be it marriage alliances or peace treaties. How does anyone trust that Tywin, Bolton, or Frey will keep their word on ANYTHING if they’re willing to violate the oldest and most sacred customs of Westeros, one of the few taboos that protect people in a dangerous world? In our history, we put this custom as the responsibility of not just the gods but the King of the Gods (Zeus Xenios, Odin the one-eyed wanderer who shows up unknown at the door, etc.) in order to make sure it wasn’t violated, because once you’ve violated it you’re back to war of all-against-all.And (as I’ll discuss in my upcoming essay in the next Tower of the Hand e-book) look at the results: Tywin’s legacy crumbled with his death and no one trusts or esteems the Lannisters at all; Bolton faces a rebellion inside of a few months of achieving his goal; Walder’s family is cursed by the gods, murdered at will, and universally hated even in King’s Landing. It’s the ultimate short-term gain for long-term loss. And this is from one of the commentators... And that custom keeps people alive in the thousands or even the millions. It doesn’t do this directly, but knowing that no one would dare molest you while you’re their guest is what lets lords who are bitter rivals or outright enemies meet and negotiate. Guest Right helps stop wars.Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister may not have killed that tool of diplomacy, but they’ve certainly grievously wounded it. No one’s sure if they can count on that protection anymore. No one with any political awareness really believes the Freys’ outlandish stories (Robb and his men turned into wolfmen and attacked the guests!) so they see a lord who blatantly broke Guest Right and GOT AWAY WITH IT. He was actually rewarded. And THAT is why the punishment/fallout for the RW, among the Northerners, Riverlords, and small folk has been so severe. Why it HAS to be severe. People instinctively realize that with the RW, the Frey's, the Bolton's, and the Lannister's for their own selfish and petty purposes have damaged one of the most basic protections Westeros has-something that stands between the kingdom and all out chaos and anarchy, with free for all killing. The ONLY way, that the taboo of Guest Right can be saved for the future, is if the guilty parties are made into a cautionary tale. They have to be wiped out, so that no would be food enough to violate the custom again. I don't want innocent family members, (and they exist even among the Frey's) harmed, but it's hard to deny not only the justice but absolute necessity of the Frey's being driven from power, from the Twins, and those who conspired in the RW being slaughtered without mercy. The real question is how the Frey's and Bolton's failed to realize this would happen-and what they will do once this starts to sink in, that the rest of Westeros is NOT going to let this go, because they can't afford to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 What should I say but yes? That's a well established fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 We should say why RW hurts me? Because it doesn't. Ok the death of SmallJon/Dacey/Robin hurted me but not Robb's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 What should I say but yes? That's a well established fact.Yep. There's nothing more to say on it. The Freys, Boltons and Lannisters are screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Sphinx Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 We should say why RW hurts me? Because it doesn't. Ok the death of SmallJon/Dacey/Robin hurted me but not Robb's. She almost made it... :frown5: Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that nobody really knew the extent that Roose helped the Red Wedding, and that if the Northmen did know then they'd have revolted a long time ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Rat Cook eating his own children should tell you something. The atrocity committed in the RW will haunt those wretchs for generations, should they last that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 She almost made it... :frown5: And when she died my first and most favorite ship died too. :crying: :bawl: :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I didn't like this plot development, it seemed too over the top at the level of destruction for something Tywin Lannister would be involved in. He mentions killing 12 men at dinner v. thousands in a battle...but this isn't what he did, they kill all the men in the field as well, so that's thousands of people they killed, so how is that in effect any different? From a propaganda perspective they might have gotten away with killing a handful of high lords and claimed they weren't "really" violating guest right but that massacre was too big. So, it seems that it's destined to cause major rifts, feuds and overall loss of stability throughout Westeros for years to come. It seems like incredible short term thinking. in terms of ROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonsrule Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Some choice quotes from one of my favorite sites-racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com, related to the broader implications of what violating the taboo of Guest Right means for Westeros... This is from site author/monitor Steve Attewell himself... And this is from one of the commentators... And THAT is why the punishment/fallout for the RW, among the Northerners, Riverlords, and small folk has been so severe. Why it HAS to be severe. People instinctively realize that with the RW, the Frey's, the Bolton's, and the Lannister's for their own selfish and petty purposes have damaged one of the most basic protections The real question is how the Frey's and Bolton's failed to realize this would happen-and what they will do once this starts to sink in, that the rest of Westeros is NOT going to let this go, because they can't afford to.True, but the Freys do have a plan - they plan to claim that they did not violate guest right, Robb was the one who started the attack during the feast. In ADWD, they tell Manderly this and he pretends to believe it. He doesn't really because he knew Robb, but that pool of people is shrinking, and with persistent propaganda, the issue can be confused enough that the institution if guest right can still be preserved without Freys being wiped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I didn't like this plot development, it seemed too over the top at the level of destruction for something Tywin Lannister would be involved in. He mentions killing 12 men at dinner v. thousands in a battle...but this isn't what he did, they kill all the men in the field as well, so that's thousands of people they killed, so how is that in effect any different? From a propaganda perspective they might have gotten away with killing a handful of high lords and claimed they weren't "really" violating guest right but that massacre was too big. So, it seems that it's destined to cause major rifts, feuds and overall loss of stability throughout Westeros for years to come. It seems like incredible short term thinking. in terms of ROI. That's Tywin Lannister for you. He did it with the Reynes and Tarbecks and with the Martells. He is consistent there: If the Lannisters as a House are involved, all bets are off. Whatever the long-term repercussions may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonsrule Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I didn't like this plot development, it seemed too over the top at the level of destruction for something Tywin Lannister would be involved in. He mentions killing 12 men at dinner v. thousands in a battle...but this isn't what he did, they kill all the men in the field as well, so that's thousands of people they killed, so how is that in effect any different? From a propaganda perspective they might have gotten away with killing a handful of high lords and claimed they weren't "really" violating guest right but that massacre was too big. So, it seems that it's destined to cause major rifts, feuds and overall loss of stability throughout Westeros for years to come. It seems like incredible short term thinking. in terms of ROI.Tywin mentions that causing instability in the North is part of his plan, he wants the internal fighting there to drag on for years until they are so tired that they will accept even Tyrion as Lord of Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Great post OP! I didn't like this plot development, it seemed too over the top at the level of destruction for something Tywin Lannister would be involved in. He mentions killing 12 men at dinner v. thousands in a battle...but this isn't what he did, they kill all the men in the field as well, so that's thousands of people they killed, so how is that in effect any different? From a propaganda perspective they might have gotten away with killing a handful of high lords and claimed they weren't "really" violating guest right but that massacre was too big. So, it seems that it's destined to cause major rifts, feuds and overall loss of stability throughout Westeros for years to come. It seems like incredible short term thinking. in terms of ROI. It wasn't supposed to go this far though, correct? I thought the original plan was to kill Robb before he set foot in the Twins, but Greywind made a scene (since he detected treachery) and ruined the whole thing so they needed to improvise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Tywin mentions that causing instability in the North is part of his plan, he wants the internal fighting there to drag on for years until they are so tired that they will accept even Tyrion as Lord of Winterfell. True, he has left everyone in the North at odds with Bolton and the Freys at odds with the rest of the Tully bannermen. But the massive, epic display of brutality and killing in the breaking of guest right is going to reverbate beyond the destabilzation of those areas. If you can get away with killing, forget that Robb was a self declared king we'll go with Lord Paramount, so you have one Lord murdered, one Lord Paramount, Edmure Tully taken prisoner, countless other high lords murdered, the widow and daughter of a Lord Paramount murdered and her body desecrated. Robb Stark's body desecrated. This is a crazy level of mayhem and breaking of society's rules. To plan this, given the already shaky set of alliances is nuts. I mean, why not just ambush them as they're heading into the twins, before they lay their arms down? Then you're just kind of a sneak, but not a breaker of ancient rules and taboos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Great post OP! It wasn't supposed to go this far though, correct? I thought the original plan was to kill Robb before he set foot in the Twins, but Greywind made a scene (since he detected treachery) and ruined the whole thing so they needed to improvise. Nope. It went exactly as it was planned. Apart from Cat turning crazy and having her throat slit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Great post OP! It wasn't supposed to go this far though, correct? I thought the original plan was to kill Robb before he set foot in the Twins, but Greywind made a scene (since he detected treachery) and ruined the whole thing so they needed to improvise. That's a hell of an improvisation, wouldn't you admit? No, this was going down the way it did from the get-go. Imagine all the planning they did, down to disguising archers as drummers?Ninja'd by BBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Great post OP! I agree, how Roose Bolton, who is supposed to be clever, could not see that this is basically signing his own death warrant is beyond me. I mean, Tywin sees red as soon as the position of his family is in question and Walder Frey is a petty old man, but I expected more from Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxman Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I think the implication with guest right is more a divine intervention, or the perhaps the unfounded fear of such If it's a purely man made social construct, then it was irrelevant a long time ago, when pragmatic men like Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, their forefathers etc., consolidated power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Nope. It went exactly as it was planned. Apart from Cat turning crazy and having her throat slit.That's a hell of an improvisation, wouldn't you admit? No, this was going down the way it did from the get-go. Imagine all the planning they did, down to disguising archers as drummers?Ninja'd by BBE I could have sworn the original plan was to kill him before he could get inside and blame it on a "stray arrow", but they couldn't get a clear shot because Greywind made a scene. Is this a false memory or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I could have sworn the original plan was to kill him before he could get inside and blame it on a "stray arrow", but they couldn't get a clear shot because Greywind made a scene. Is this a false memory or something? Do you remember the chapter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I could have sworn the original plan was to kill him before he could get inside and blame it on a "stray arrow", but they couldn't get a clear shot because Greywind made a scene. Is this a false memory or something? Yeah, it's a false memory. They did refuse to let Robb take Grey Wind in, but I don't know where you are getting the stray arrow from..the whole scene is full of the drums, of how bad the musicians are, ...and how then in the end they all have crossbows. Everyone's rooms are already prepared....Cat, Robb, Edmure, Cat even thinks they are nicer than she expected...this can't all have been done on the fly. And if they only wanted to kill him why did they have the outside tents rigged to collapse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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