[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[sj4iy]

I have all the knowledge of contracts expected of someone with a B+ in Contracts 101 and an A- in Commerical Law.

Lol, I have all of the knowledge of someone who minored in business XD

[EddardsHead]

Yeah i'll probably watch it on TV, but I would much prefer the books. Too bad the books won't be done for another decade.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Interesting. I won't start the books until the show ends.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

so GRRM is not going to change the ending of the books and the show is not required to follow the book material/ending/plot lines etc.

I'm kinda happy they're changing so much stuff and I'm honestly rooting for D&D to come up with a different ending..

[titanx5]

so GRRM is not going to change the ending of the books and the show is not required to follow the book material/ending/plot lines etc.

I'm kinda happy they're changing so much stuff and I'm honestly rooting for D&D to come up with a different ending..

They will BOTH HAVE THE SAME ENDING!!!! so we just need to accept it. The only difference will be the journey to that point

[sj4iy]

so GRRM is not going to change the ending of the books and the show is not required to follow the book material/ending/plot lines etc.

I'm kinda happy they're changing so much stuff and I'm honestly rooting for D&D to come up with a different ending..

Different roads lead to the same castle.

The ending will be pretty much the same.

[scotcat]

Both the show and the books will have the same ending. The only difference will be in the routes they take in order to get to that ending. D&D know the endgame & lets be honest about this - we all knew we would hit the point where the show overtakes the books sooner or later. Does this seriously come as a surprise to anyone anymore?

Everyone will have to make up their own mind when it comes to the show, but I'll still be watching the show & I'll still be waiting patiently for the remaining novels.

[Konradsmith]

Basically we'll get a pretty faithful Act Three but a much-shortened, altered Act Two.

[oierem]

Basically we'll get a pretty faithful Act Three but a much-shortened, altered Act Two.

Yes, but remember that, back when Martin was planning the 5 year gap, there was no "Act Two". It was two trilogies. The "middle act" appeared when he decided not to do the gap, which resulted in a lot of inconsecuential chapters/travellings/rulling. The show is condensing all that and going straight into the Final Act.

[sj4iy]

Basically we'll get a pretty faithful Act Three but a much-shortened, altered Act Two.

The second act is often the weakest...I'm fine with speeding through it as fast as possible to get to Act Three :)

[The One And Only]

When D&D add content to connect the dots, some people get angry about the changes.

When GRRM adds content in order to connect the dots, some people call it great writing.

A lot of the material in AFFC & ADWD was never intended to be in there. There is no reason to get mad about it changing.

[Konradsmith]

Aye. We'll get a best-of Act Two plus some switches, changes and omissions and then we'll get Act Three early. Fine by me!

[Mr Fixit]

Aye. We'll get a best-of Act Two plus some switches, changes and omissions and then we'll get Act Three early. Fine by me!

True, I'd still like 8 seasons though. The way it currently stands, Act I is, let's say, 3.75 seasons long, Act II 1.25, and Act III 2 (S6 and S7). Three seasons for the third act would be ideal.

[Konradsmith]

8 would probably be better but it seems they're dead-set on 7. Of course Act Three is meant to only be 2 books, while Act One was 3, but for all we know the published Act Three could end up being 3+ books (whenever it ends up coming out, that is).

[oierem]

8 would probably be better but it seems they're dead-set on 7. Of course Act Three is meant to only be 2 books, while Act One was 3, but for all we know the published Act Three could end up being 3+ books (whenever it ends up coming out, that is).

I don't think we should think so strictly about Acts. Remember, with the 5-year gap, A Dance With Dragons was meant to be the first book of the Final Act (there was no Act 2),and while the book was meant to cover a lot more than the final product did, Dany flying Drogon was meant to be the first Dany chapter, if I recall correctly. Basically, the Final Act would being with the final moments of AFFC/ADWD, including Cersei's downfall and arrest, Jon's betrayal... We're getting all that in season 5, so, strictly speaking, that's the beginning of Act 3, right?

I tend to think that, unlike the books,the show will have two clear Acts (having simplified and altered much of the "middle act" from the books). Season 1 established the characters and basic plotlines for Act 1 ("The War of the Five Kings"), which ended in Season 4.

Season 5 will establish the new situations and plotlines for Act 2, ("The War of Fire and Ice") which will end in Season 7. I think season 5 may be similar to Season 1, with a slow build-up establishing the new statu-quo and with a lot of game-changing events happening towards the end that will mark the start of the next War.

[Konradsmith]

^Sounds good to me!

[oierem]

True, I'd still like 8 seasons though. The way it currently stands, Act I is, let's say, 3.75 seasons long, Act II 1.25, and Act III 2 (S6 and S7). Three seasons for the third act would be ideal.

7 or 8 entirely depends on how the last two books are structured, IMO. It's clear now that Feast and Dragons are best adapted as a single season (and part of season 4). If the last two books have coherent and complete story arcs as the first books did, the best way to adapt them is as single seasons (season 6 for Winds and 7 for Dream). It's not that easy to artificially create 3 seasons when you don't have proper character and story arcs.

On the other hand, I was thinking that Jon's stabbing will probably work MUCH better on TV than in the books (if, as expected, it happens at the end of season 5). In the books, his "death" is cheapened because Martin regularly uses fake deaths and resurrections at this point. I don't think a single readers believes that Jon's really dead at this point.

However, the omission of LS may be benefitial for the show. When she didn't appear in season 4, a lot of fans claimed that the very existence of the Brotherhood was stupid if LS wasn't a part of the show. I disagree. The Brotherhood established the idea that a Red Priest can resurrect a dead man, but we haven't seen that happening yet. If Mel resurrects Jon, it will be much more surprising if we haven't seen the same happening with Cat before. Think about it: if you don't want to overuse the same trick and if yo only had to choose one, who's more important, LS (who only wants revenge and kills unimportant Freys and might have some impact on a lesser storyline) or Jon (who's past will be really important to the endgame and is one of the key characters of the show)?

I think they show might have been very clever in S3, much more than we thought. When Mel visited Beric and Thoros we all assumed it was just because they wanted Gendry to fill Edric's role. But, in fact, something more important happened in that episode: Mel learned that it was possible to bring someone back from death. And in S4, Mel saw Jon "through" the flames. The circle is about to close, I think...

[Grayven]

Think about it: if you don't want to overuse the same trick and if yo only had to choose one, who's more important, LS (who only wants revenge and kills unimportant Freys and might have some impact on a lesser storyline) or Jon (who's past will be really important to the endgame and is one of the key characters of the show)?

I think they show might have been very clever in S3, much more than we thought. When Mel visited Beric and Thoros we all assumed it was just because they wanted Gendry to fill Edric's role. But, in fact, something more important happened in that episode: Mel learned that it was possible to bring someone back from death. And in S4, Mel saw Jon "through" the flames. The circle is about to close, I think...

Excellent commentary. To my ears, this line of thinking has a ring of truth to it.

[ummester]

I think 7 show seasons is enough.

It is possible, that by stretching it to 7 x 900+ page books, GRRM is making too long.

The mid point was definitely resolved in season 4 of the show and ASoS the book - everything after this should build to the conclusion. From GRRMs original conception, this was designed to be a fantasy saga, not a series and definitely not an episodic series. If ASoIaF/GoTs becomes episodic it will ruin it.

Re the War of the 5 Kings and the 'war' of Ice and Fire equaling different acts, I don't think this is quite how it is breaking down (in books or show). It might be better to relate the structure to seasons. We seen the bad summer and some of the troubled autumn that follows, we just need winter to come and the glimpse spring on the other side. The show looks like it is mixing up a lot of things in autumn - hopefully winter will play out the same in both show and books.

[Mr Fixit]

7 or 8 entirely depends on how the last two books are structured, IMO. It's clear now that Feast and Dragons are best adapted as a single season (and part of season 4). If the last two books have coherent and complete story arcs as the first books did, the best way to adapt them is as single seasons (season 6 for Winds and 7 for Dream). It's not that easy to artificially create 3 seasons when you don't have proper character and story arcs.

I agree. I'm not saying that 8 seasons are absolutely necessary. If Martin manages to tell a coherent and somewhat concise story in Winds and Dream, I'm cool with 7 seasons (though an extended season would be nice!). If he continues down the path of constant expansion, I'm afraid the final seasons will have to be ever more hack&slashy in their approach to original material. Besides, does anyone believe Dream will be the last book? Possible, I guess, but I have a feeling we'll see an eighth one. Especially if Martin accepts the fact that the show will overtake him and stops trying to keep pace, it's entirely possible that he goes "hell with it! I now have all the time I need. May as well go full monty."

I think they show might have been very clever in S3, much more than we thought. When Mel visited Beric and Thoros we all assumed it was just because they wanted Gendry to fill Edric's role. But, in fact, something more important happened in that episode: Mel learned that it was possible to bring someone back from death. And in S4, Mel saw Jon "through" the flames. The circle is about to close, I think...

I think so too.

Fans love Lady Stoneheart, no doubt. Hell, I'm among those. But a lot of fans also dislike Jon's fake death. Why? Well, because it smells too much like "been there, done that". Without LS, Jon's death will truly be a shocking twist, and his "return" even more so. Therefore, while I'm really sorry that LS is apparently gone, I fully understand GoT's reasoning here. It makes sense.