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Are people too harsh on the Tullys?


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#1 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:14 AM

Catelyn and Edmure specifically.

 

Catelyn is criticized for hating Jon, despite this hatred being justified (The walking, talking reminder that the honorable Lord Eddard Stark...FUCKED ANOTHER WOMAN!)

 

Is criticized for arresting Tyrion, at the time, and from her own knowledge, this was deftly done. And even if he didn't do it, she had a valuable hostage just in case.

 

She's criticized for freeing Jaime, despite us know from Jaime's own PoV that he was actually going to give Sansa back.

 

People are too harsh on her for caring for her own children.

 

Not to mention all the reasonable advice she gave Robb who could have won the war had he listened.

 

And Edmure.

"Disobeyed" orders from Robb, very vague orders at that, "hold Riverrun", and he held it, yet he's criticized for fighting back against the Lannisters. I don't know Robb could have told him what he was planning to do, but nooooo. He's a Stark and thus must be forgiven.

 

He genuinely cares for the commoners, and is criticized for it. Wat. You hate him for being having a gentle heart. Sure it's naive but in ASOIAF that's rare. 

 

Thoughts?

 

ETA: http://thenerdstream...elyn-stark.html


Edited by SuperTechmarine, 19 February 2014 - 08:34 AM.


#2 harry_dresden

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:18 AM

Catelyn's hatred towards Jon was a problem. She should have aimed it at Ned.

 

Her main issue was that Jon was raised at WF, but if she had the moral courage, she'd have 0 problems with Jon and blamed it all on Ned.


Edited by harry_dresden, 19 February 2014 - 08:29 AM.


#3 SugarCrisp

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:19 AM

Catelyn should have never hated Jon (Who did nothing wrong other than exist).  It should have been directed towards Ned, but that would have led to a cold and loveless marriage.  She chose to direct her anger at Jon instead.

 

But I was shocked at the amount of people who disliked Catelyn.  I remember reading one comment where someone disliked Catelyn, but after having a few children of her own, she was able to better understand and sympathize with Cat more.

 

So maybe it's just because I'm female with a mothering instinct that I actually like Cat more than other people seem to. 



#4 David Selig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:22 AM

Of course. Apparently not being a mind reader and telepathic understanding Robb's dumb plan or saying something bad to the Chosen One and giving him cold looks is way worse than being a multiple murderer and all-around selfish jerk (like Stannis, Jaime, Tyrion and plenty of others characters loved by the fandom).


Edited by David Selig, 19 February 2014 - 08:23 AM.


#5 harry_dresden

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:22 AM

Anyways, early impressions are important.

 

That scene(you know what I'm talking about) never really goes away for a lot of people.

 

Its why people still dislike Sansa so much. Sansa's AGOT chapters were awful as well. She gets better but some people just don't forget or forgive.



#6 harry_dresden

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:25 AM

Of course. Apparently not being a mind reader and telepathic understanding Robb's dumb plan or saying something bad to the Chosen One and giving him cold looks is way worse than being a multiple murderer and all-around selfish jerk (like Stannis, Jaime, Tyrion and plenty of others characters loved by the fandom).

 

Those jerks actually can be entertaining though.

 

Catelyn is just obnoxious to read.



#7 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:27 AM

I wasnt really moved when Cat did the: it should have been you thing. Didnt care on my first read and dont care now, she was clearly in a bad place, and regardless of her feelings to Jon i doubt she would have said that to him in a rational state of mind. She gets far too much critique imo. Same with Edmure, he couldnt possobly have known Robb's plans. Robb - Oh, my plwn failed? I know, lets blame Edmure!

#8 BaleTheGuard

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:28 AM

The Tully family is a lot like that girl in school that you've been crushing on for years, but who also friendzoned you ages ago.



#9 David Selig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:32 AM

 

Those jerks actually can be entertaining though.

 

Catelyn is just obnoxious to read.

That's just, like, your opinion, man. I find Catelyn's chapters much more entertaining on average. especially on reread, where Tyrion's non-stop lame jokes and Stannis' whining about his rights get really tiresome.


Edited by David Selig, 19 February 2014 - 08:32 AM.


#10 Lady Sansa Stark

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:34 AM

I think they are being way too harsh, though I can even understand the criticism aimed at Catelyn. Arresting Tyrion gave Tywin a good excuse - but nothing more than that. The "It should have been you" surely wasn't her best line either, though slightly understandable given the circumstances. Freeing Jaime didn't really help either, but didn't hurt Robb's cause as far as I know (didn't the Red Wedding get planned before this?) She wanted her daughters back, after Theon "killed" her two youngest sons. 

 

I just can't understand criticism aimed at Edmure. Robb just gave a really shitty worded assignment and expected Edmure to magically know what he actually meant. And he actually cares for the smallfolk, which is extremely rare in Westeros.  



#11 harry_dresden

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:36 AM

That's just, like, your opinion, man. I find Catelyn's chapters much more entertaining on average. especially on reread, where Tyrion's non-stop lame jokes and Stannis' whining about his rights get really tiresome.

 

I know its my opinion. But I believe that its why people generally like Jaime, Tyrion and the likes over Catelyn.

 

Most people just don't find Catelyn appealing. Sure, morally she is better than the characters you listed, and you might find her entertaining. But I have a hard time believing other people find her so entertaining.



#12 Lord Reaver

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:51 AM

Catelyn and Edmure specifically.

 

Catelyn is criticized for hating Jon, despite this hatred being justified (The walking, talking reminder that the honorable Lord Eddard Stark...FUCKED ANOTHER WOMAN!)

 

Is criticized for arresting Tyrion, at the time, and from her own knowledge, this was deftly done. And even if he didn't do it, she had a valuable hostage just in case.

 

She's criticized for freeing Jaime, despite us know from Jaime's own PoV that he was actually going to give Sansa back.

 

Jon being a bastard isn't justification for Catelyn hating him. That's an awful sort of logic you're peddling there. Jon wasn't at fault for the circumstances of his birth, yet Cat makes him pay for it. If you can't see how that is wrong, well, good luck to you.

 

She arrests Tyrion on the basis of a dagger and the word of Petyr Baelish. Granted, you can argue that she has no reason to distrust Petyr, it's still just his word. She did absolutely no further attempts at figuring out about the dagger, she simply swallowed what Petyr fed her. If she'd asked the king, for instance, things would have been very different.

 

Since Catelyn isn't a mind reader, she has no way of knowing whether Jaime will honor his word or not. With the reputation Jaime has for oathbreaking as well as zero chance of actually making sure he follows up it is a huge mistake letting him go like that. It's one that can be excused to a certain degree with her motherly feelings, but it remains a huge mistake nonetheless.



#13 Stannis Eats No Peaches

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:51 AM

Yes I get annoyed at the level of hate directed at Edmure. Did he mess up? Yes he did, but he only messed up because Robb messed up first. Some people can't accept the fact that Robb's defeat was down to him fucking up (understandably, he's only 16).
I also sympathise with Cat. The "it should have been you" thing was nasty and uncalled for, but she was in a really bad place and I'm certain that she didn't treat him like that the whole time. She was cold and distant, but not outright abusive towards him except for that one time.

#14 Lord Reaver

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:53 AM

She was cold and distant, but not outright abusive towards him except for that one time.

 

Do you know this ? The books show very little of "normal" life in the Stark household before the events of the books.



#15 Red Raven

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:54 AM

Catelyn should have never hated Jon (Who did nothing wrong other than exist).  It should have been directed towards Ned, but that would have led to a cold and loveless marriage.  She chose to direct her anger at Jon instead.

 

Which makes her selfish and a bully and she never reflected on her snobbery.  At least Robb told her to STFU when he made Jon his heir.

 

As for Edmure, he's not the sharpest blade in the drawer but Robb was the idiot for giving him crappy orders.  He should have made clear what Edmure needed to do. 

 

Another point in Edmure's favor, he's good-hearted and he never took out his anger about the RW on his wife (take notes, Catelyn, Edmure blames the correct people instead of bullying innocents).  He and Roslin seem genuinely fond of each other.  Plus he sheltered the frightened smallfolk at Riverrun.  Blackfish may be a badass but Edmure is the best Tully out of all of them in terms of being a good person.

 

 

Since Catelyn isn't a mind reader, she has no way of knowing whether Jaime will honor his word or not. With the reputation Jaime has for oathbreaking as well as zero chance of actually making sure he follows up it is a huge mistake letting him go like that. It's one that can be excused to a certain degree with her motherly feelings, but it remains a huge mistake nonetheless.

 

And how on earth did she think that Brienne was going to succeed?  A lone woman traveling with a man tied up was not likely to make it to King's Landing alive, especially in the midst of a brutal war.  They very nearly didn't several times over.  It was a stupid idea all around.


Edited by Red Raven, 19 February 2014 - 09:09 AM.


#16 harry_dresden

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:55 AM

Also. One thing I think Catelyn really does deserve some vitriol for.

 

Her murder of Jinglebell. That was just really cheap.

 

She didn't have to do it. And he was innocent regardless.



#17 Mark Antony

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:57 AM

Catelyns POV is so entertaining imo. I could list all the awesome chapter that happen with her Name at the beginning but it would probably be a waste of time

#18 Stannis Eats No Peaches

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:57 AM

Do you know this ? The books show very little of "normal" life in the Stark household before the events of the books.


Could've sworn I read it somewhere. An SSM perhaps? Also, she thinks about Jon in her POV and about being cold and distant.

#19 harry_dresden

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:00 AM

http://www.westeros....ine_and_Catelyn

 

 The "It should have been you" was a very special case.


Edited by harry_dresden, 19 February 2014 - 09:01 AM.


#20 Mad Monkey

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:00 AM

Since Catelyn isn't a mind reader, she has no way of knowing whether Jaime will honor his word or not. With the reputation Jaime has for oathbreaking as well as zero chance of actually making sure he follows up it is a huge mistake letting him go like that. It's one that can be excused to a certain degree with her motherly feelings, but it remains a huge mistake nonetheless.


My understanding that Catelyn was putting her faith in Tyrion, not Jaime. Tyrion had sworn before the court to exchange the Stark girls for Jaime (which actually was a lie, but Catelyn couldn't know that); Catelyn was starting to warm on Tyrion anyway during their excursion to the Vale, since Tyrion had saved her life and seemed like a decent guy.
 

Her murder of Jinglebell. That was just really cheap.


Murder? No way. With an extreme emotional disturbance defense the Stark family attorneys could probably plead it down to manslaughter, maybe even second-degree manslaughter. She would serve less than two years in jail.

I think people aren't harsh enough on Hoster Tully. In the bad father Olympics he doesn't come close to competing with the Tywins, the Randylls, or the Crasters but there's a special place in Hell for what he did to Lysa.

Edited by Mad Monkey, 19 February 2014 - 09:02 AM.