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Jon Snow: A mary sue?


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#1 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:15 PM

He has practically zero flaws and nothing goes against him. He's never punished for bad decisions or mistakes, Robb gets killed because he couldn't keep it in his pants, Tyrion is exiled because everyone hates him, Eddard is executed for telling Cersei. People get fucked over all the time. And Jon doesn't get even a tap on the wrist. Like literally nothing.

 

I'm not hating or anything, it's just weird that a series full of so many grey characters, there's a morally white guy who does everything right without a single mistake.

 

(Granted he get's stabbed but that doesn't mean anything because let's face it he's coming back. Oh. Another trait of a Mary Sue. Cheating death.)



#2 Hoyti_Von_Totiy

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

George RR Martin really donesnt like Jon Snow as a character, you can tell.

He has him stuck at the wall with no Others in sight for 5 books and when he finally does have a moment to shine George has Stannis show up and solve the situation like Stannis hasnt done enough in the series already... and what has Jon done? Niothing really.

I read somwhere on this board that RR Martin said that Others are not a problem when you figure out how to kill them and that they fall easily. So even there you can figure out that Sam Tarly with his knowledge will have more contribution on the Wall than Jon.

Overall Jon Snow makes no impact in these books.



#3 butterbumps!

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:22 PM

ok, I'm mildly curious.  What are you calling Jon's "mistakes" and bad decisions?  So far as I recall, he didn't break a major political alliance via "honor marriage," tell Cersei he planned to confiscate her prior to securing his own interests, or, say, taunt his abused son holding a crossbow while on the can.  I'm wondering what you're considering a similar epic fail he hasn't been punished for?



#4 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:23 PM

ok, I'm mildly curious.  What are you calling Jon's "mistakes" and bad decisions?  So far as I recall, he didn't break a major political alliance via "honor marriage," tell Cersei he planned to confiscate her prior to securing his own interests, or, say, taunt his abused son holding a crossbow while on the can.  I'm wondering what you're considering a similar epic fail he hasn't been punished for?

 

Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.



#5 Minsc

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:26 PM

ok, I'm mildly curious.  What are you calling Jon's "mistakes" and bad decisions?  So far as I recall, he didn't break a major political alliance via "honor marriage," tell Cersei he planned to confiscate her prior to securing his own interests, or, say, taunt his abused son holding a crossbow while on the can.  I'm wondering what you're considering a similar epic fail he hasn't been punished for?

 

He did openly attack a superior officer only to receive absolutely no real punishment besides being set up for a situation to allow him to save the LC and receive his special sword (that even Tywin couldn't get legitimately).  Especially, when you contrast to how Janos Slynt is basically executed because he opposed some orders given to him by a superior officer.

 

Similarly, he did attempt to abandon his vows and fled South to join up with Robb despite that being a death sentence.  Yet, Jeor Mormont doesn't give him even the mildest of punishments for his actions.


Edited by Minsc, 20 February 2014 - 03:28 PM.


#6 Hajk

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:26 PM

He has practically zero flaws and nothing goes against him. He's never punished for bad decisions or mistakes, Robb gets killed because he couldn't keep it in his pants, Tyrion is exiled because everyone hates him, Eddard is executed for telling Cersei. People get fucked over all the time. And Jon doesn't get even a tap on the wrist. Like literally nothing.

 

I'm not hating or anything, it's just weird that a series full of so many grey characters, there's a morally white guy who does everything right without a single mistake.

 

(Granted he get's stabbed but that doesn't mean anything because let's face it he's coming back. Oh. Another trait of a Mary Sue. Cheating death.)

He's not a Mary Sue, he's not engaged in playing the game of thrones at any level. In fact he is mostly in an organization that makes it a mission to avoid it. The only time he even comes close to it, he gets stabbed. If anything, the message seems to be that those who stay away from the game (and out of its path) are generally safer than those who play it. Which, frankly, is not too surprising.



#7 bebeber

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.


Yeah, it was all a bit 'but Qhorin told me too' 'Really? OK, no problem. Wannabe Lord Commander?'

#8 Whatever

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

 

Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.

We are continually told that sleeping around ins't really considered a big deal in the NW and yet Jon tortures himself more than enough for it
I'm not even mentioning killing Qhorin since, y'know, he literally asked for it. Same goes for the turning cloack bit. You can argue that it feels like cheating that he didn't go all the way -- the storyline surely would've been more interesting had Ygritte survived and Jon actually deserted; but he didn't. Take it with GRRM if you want, but Jon hasn't done any serious mistakes except for being careless in handling the Watch in Dance, and we'll see what happens now.



#9 butterbumps!

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

 

Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.

Can you be more specific about these?

 

For example, what are you considering to be a mistake about killing Qhorin?  Is this moral or strategic failure in your opinion?

 

What "breaking vows" are you talking about?  I believe he broke vows, but I'm trying to understand what occasion you're referring to and why this is a failure.

 

In a similar vein, which turncloaking are you talking about?  Do you mean when he was commanded to join the wildlings?   Can you explain why you think that was a failure?

 

 

I could launch into a tirade about Jon's character flaws, so I'm not invested in proving he's perfect.  I'm just not understanding the things you've listed as "mistakes," and on what grounds you're saying he hasn't paid for his actions. 

 

 

 

 

Similarly, he did attempt to abandon his vows and fled South to join up with Robb despite that being a death sentence.  Yet, Jeor Mormont doesn't give him even the mildest of punishments for his actions.

 

I fail to see how his contemplating desertion in aGoT is equivalent to his actually having committed it.


Edited by butterbumps!, 20 February 2014 - 03:30 PM.


#10 Vaxis

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:29 PM

 

Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.

 

Except that's not true. He was sent out to treat with Mance alone (and kill him, as ordered by Thorne) to test his loyalty. But lo and behold, Stannis interrupts. As well, no other Watch member was around when Jon did these things. No witnesses to accuse him.

 

Not to mention all the things you listed were things he did on Qhorins orders anyways. Which may point to him being morally white except for the fact that he is conflicted in nearly every action he makes throughout the series. It's not like it was at all easy for him to kill Qhorin and follow those orders. He lived in self-doubt for the rest of the third book because of it. Other than the saving and migration of wildlings south of the wall, which he was more or less 100% set on doing, he generally has a very hard time deciding what to do, and his final decisions are also controversial, which is why he got killed. Which is also, you know, kind of a big "tap on the wrist".



#11 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

 

Can you be more specific about these?

 

For example, what are you considering to be a mistake about killing Qhorin?  Is this moral or strategic failure in your opinion?

Morally.

 

What "breaking vows" are you talking about?  I believe he broke vows, but I'm trying to understand what occasion you're referring to and why this is a failure.

Fucks Ygritte, deserts, joins the wildlings.



#12 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

 

The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name.

This would be the Targs but also Tully looks are seen as exotic by the fandom.

 

 

She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

This can be Sansa. He tries to make Jon non threatening so he's average. He's never the best at anything. That can be typical of certain heroes though that are meant to be relatable in order to make them more sympathetic.

 

 

She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting;

Jon has a dramatic back story. The overwhelming admiration is for Sansa and Dany but the latter is getting mad/Aerys PR already lately.

 

Jon did gain allies in situation where it's implausible and there are females who want him.

 

 

if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc.

This definitely applies to Jon. Catelyn and Tyrion.

 

 

Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)

 

The fandom certainly believes this will happen to the point where many act like other characters' roles are in the story solely to how they can either be or not be of help to the oh so heroic and kingly Jon Snow.

 

Rhaegar is probably a worse offender. Especially if fans get their wish and Elia has no problem so that fans can use that to absolve him.
 



#13 Hajk

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

 

Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.

He kills Qhorin as that is exactly what Qhorin wants him to do. He comes back to the Watch and loses the woman he loves. For now, as far as he knows, he has lost all his family (his father and all the siblings he loved), the home where he grew up is burned and in the control of a monster who has his sister, the woman he loved died in his arms, the Others are coming with him being responsible for being the first line of defense against them, and he is stabbed and either unconscious or dead. That is not nothing.



#14 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

****The hate is strong with this one****

 

 

And you are wrong if anything he is a Marty Stu/Gary-Stu/Marty Sam.


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 20 February 2014 - 03:35 PM.


#15 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

I don't think he is a Mary Sue.

But a lot of people on the forum over glorify him so I wouldn't be shocked if people think he is but he actually isn't.



#16 Don Roberto

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:35 PM

He did get one huge backlash. He ignored the sentiment of his fellow black brothers during his time as Lord Commander, bringing in hordes of wildlings and all. And he payed for it with his life. Kind of like what Robb did, by ignoring Lord Karstark's grudges.

 

And I don't think Jon is perfect at all. He's quite the brat at the beginning, and is forced to change his ways through a lot of hard times. He's of the less flawed stock of characters in the books, certainly, but no Mary Sue.



#17 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:35 PM

He kills Qhorin as that is exactly what Qhorin wants him to do. He comes back to the Watch and loses the woman he loves. For now, as far as he knows, he has lost all his family (his father and all the siblings he loved), the home where he grew up is burned and in the control of a monster who has his sister, the woman he loved died in his arms, the Others are coming with him being responsible for being the first line of defense against them, and he is stabbed and either unconscious or dead. That is not nothing.

 

And yet he suffers nothing physically.



#18 Minsc

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:35 PM


I fail to see how his contemplating desertion in aGoT is equivalent to his actually having committed it.

 

 

It is not saying that he should have been executed, but it is pretty lax that he receives no level of punishment for his actions besides a weak warning.  Honestly, Jeor could have just demoted him from being his personal steward for a while and make him take up a lower position. Or otherwise lowered Jon's rations or anything.

 

 

****The hate is strong with this one****

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

The fact that you are complaining about others hating a character.


Edited by Minsc, 20 February 2014 - 03:37 PM.


#19 El Guapo

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:37 PM

Yeah I have always considered him to be a Mary Sue which is why I find him to be so boring and predictable.



#20 Whatever

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:38 PM

 

And yet he suffers nothing physically.

So what, you're mad that Jon isn't dead yet? I fail to see how this makes him a Mary Sue. You said he doesn't get consequences for his action, we're pointing out that Qhorin told him to.
This seems more character-bashing than an actual thread to me.