Significance of House Royce

[the conquering bastard 25]

never said that he had to take the title he very well could take the title lord protector. That would just extend his spear of power. Not to mention his vows did say protect the realms of men.

I agree though I don't see him being or taking the title of king before the end of the series if he does.

I dont see them declaring for Dany for the simple fact that I don't think Tyrion's arc in the Vale is over. Nor his business with Sansa, the Arryns or Littlfinger all three just so happen to be in the Vale.

I was just finding it interesting that Jon in AGOT thought about roads that lead to KL, Vale, Casterly Rock, Riverrun, Mountains of Dorne and Braavos.

Alsmost all of them have are coming to the Wall, instead of them going to them. Riverrun in the form of those two human ravens that were sent by the Blackfish.

Then like I said I could see Myranda Royce popping up at the wall. Sansa also is in the Vale,and it's one of the places that Jon was thinking about looking for food.

Edmure is a captive who knows about Jon's status and like the Blackfish said he would be continuing his nephew's war. Well, sansa is a lannister, bran/rickon thought to be dead and same as Arya or she's a fake. That only leaves Jon. I think that the Blackfish/Trident lords, BWB, whores and the remnants of the Young Wolf's army are cooking up something. If there is a conspiracy going on in the north then I definitely feel that there's one going on in the West/Trident and the Vale is going to factor heavily in this.

I've also noticed that the Tower of Joy was in the Fowler's own the prince's pass, while King's grave is the castle that's next to the Tower. Something's up with that as well. Not to mention that there's the Daynes, Gerold Dayne being the most dangerous man in Dorne, maybe he really does know more than he should. He would have been about 12 around the time of the Tower.

I'm working of this rather long detailed look at the Tourney of Harrenhal and some connections are hitting me that I hadn't notice before.

Could you explain why you think that dany is hitting the Vale?

[Hippocras]

I think the primary inclination of House Royce now would be to join Stannis.

1. Jon Arryn planned to send his son to foster with Stannis and they know it. That implies a certain amount of trust.

2. They fought against Dany's father. I don't see why they would turn around and fight to put Targaryens back on the throne they helped take from Targaryens. Same goes for Aegon.

3. Stannis helped the North when help was needed. Their affection for Ned will make that a consideration.

4. They may have ties to the Manderlys.

The timing of various events will determine many things of course. The first hurdle is that Stannis has to win at Winterfell and install a Stark there. This will likely be Rickon. The next major factor is how soon Littlefinger makes his move. If he intends to piggyback off of Varys's plan, then LF will be thinking in terms of Aegon. If he makes a move towards Aegon before word reaches the Vale that Stannis is not dead and in fact prevailed in the North, the Royces may cooperate.

Dany will not be arriving in Westeros for a while yet. The next moves in the Vale will be related to Stannis, Aegon and the Lannisters, not Dany. How those events unfold will determine how things stand when Dany arrives.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I think, House Royce aside, the Vale doesn't much support the northern cause. They don't hate them either, but I doubt it's a fait accompli that they'd sign up. Ditto Stannis; just because Jon Arryn maybe liked him mightn't stand for much. Mostly they'll go with whoever benefits them the most, or whoever they can be persuaded to support, which may well amount to the same thing.

[HexMachina]

I think, House Royce aside, the Vale doesn't much support the northern cause. They don't hate them either, but I doubt it's a fait accompli that they'd sign up. Ditto Stannis; just because Jon Arryn maybe liked him mightn't stand for much. Mostly they'll go with whoever benefits them the most, or whoever they can be persuaded to support, which may well amount to the same thing.

They did want to join Robb though, or at least some of them did. They wanted justice/revenge for Jon Arryn's death, and they seemed to have believed the Lannister's were responsible

[Hippocras]

I think, House Royce aside, the Vale doesn't much support the northern cause. They don't hate them either, but I doubt it's a fait accompli that they'd sign up. Ditto Stannis; just because Jon Arryn maybe liked him mightn't stand for much. Mostly they'll go with whoever benefits them the most, or whoever they can be persuaded to support, which may well amount to the same thing.

I agree, the Vale is divided. Some, like the Royces, are more connected to Ned and Robert and their time in the Vale than others and have blood ties. They are strong North supporters. The rest will probably just follow LF.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I recall something Catelyn said to Robb: these are your bannerman, they are not your friends. I see no reason why the Vale should be any different. These are political relationships. The Vale lords will be asking themselves: "what benefits me, what hurts me, and what can I get away with?" Love and history and honour are competing factors, true, but they won't outweigh the political considerations.

Generally speaking, at least. There are exceptions whose personal nobility overrides their political... wotsits. I can't think of the word. And perhaps the Royces are just such: loyal to Jon Arryn, friendly to the Blackfish and the Riverlands, supportive of the North, and hating the Lannisters. We'll have to wait and see to be sure, but I note that even with reports of the Royces trying to raise the Vale for the North, the key word is trying. They did not succeed, and they left it at that. They aren't willing to assume the risk of such a venture without the rest of the Vale behind them; even if the Royces are motivated in this instance by sentiment, most of the other Vale lords are not, so it comes back to politics. The way the Vale breaks in future books will depend on lords who are asking: "what's in it for me?"

[Hippocras]

I recall something Catelyn said to Robb: these are your bannerman, they are not your friends. I see no reason why the Vale should be any different. These are political relationships. The Vale lords will be asking themselves: "what benefits me, what hurts me, and what can I get away with?" Love and history and honour are competing factors, true, but they won't outweigh the political considerations.

Generally speaking, at least. There are exceptions whose personal nobility overrides their political... wotsits. I can't think of the word. And perhaps the Royces are just such: loyal to Jon Arryn, friendly to the Blackfish and the Riverlands, supportive of the North, and hating the Lannisters. We'll have to wait and see to be sure, but I note that even with reports of the Royces trying to raise the Vale for the North, the key word is trying. They did not succeed, and they left it at that. They aren't willing to assume the risk of such a venture without the rest of the Vale behind them; even if the Royces are motivated in this instance by sentiment, most of the other Vale lords are not, so it comes back to politics. The way the Vale breaks in future books will depend on lords who are asking: "what's in it for me?"

That's a good assessment, but it may be where Sansa can use her new skills, as well as her natural gift for winning people over with perfect manners and sweetness. It desn't need to be everyone in the Vale who aligns with the Royces. Three or 4 powerful families would be enough to cause quite a bit of trouble for Littlefinger.

[the conquering bastard 25]

That's a good assessment, but it may be where Sansa can use her new skills, as well as her natural gift for winning people over with perfect manners and sweetness. It desn't need to be everyone in the Vale who aligns with the Royces. Three or 4 powerful families would be enough to cause quite a bit of trouble for Littlefinger.

Like those house that are related to House Stark by blood and make up over half of the lords defenders? I mean those are some of the major principal houses in the Vale. All of them being Stark cousins. I get the impression that Royce is playing Littlefinger's game against him. Why else make sure that Harry was knighted, that only helps LF cause. Lady Waywood, had to know that engaging a bastard to the heir to the Vale would piss Royce off. So unless they are working together to get Sansa Stark away from LF. I do know that she knows who Sansa is, think about what she said to Lyn when they were talking, she's gentle born and bred and seen more horrors. What horrors would she being speaking about unless she has some understanding that's she not whom shes pretending to be.

[The Kinkslayer]

Runestone is not far from crackclaw point, that could imply that Royce's armor is for fighting squishers, not others.

It is known where the Andals crossed the narrow sea? Because the arm was broken by then and the bay of crabs is the part of westeros that is closer to Andalos

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It is known where the Andals crossed the narrow sea? Because the arm was broken by then and the bay of crabs is the part of westeros that is closer to Andalos

The Fingers in the Vale. Indeed, the very spot where they allegedly landed is only a couple hundred meters from LF's keep.

[Hippocras]

The Fingers in the Vale. Indeed, the very spot where they allegedly landed is only a couple hundred meters from LF's keep.

That's really interesting, and helps explain the Royce history with the North. If they were a family with First Men tradition fighting the Andals, and the North successfully resisted the Andals. It could definitely tie in to how things go in the Vale next.

[Fire Eater]

I think the primary inclination of House Royce now would be to join Stannis.

1. Jon Arryn planned to send his son to foster with Stannis and they know it. That implies a certain amount of trust.

2. They fought against Dany's father. I don't see why they would turn around and fight to put Targaryens back on the throne they helped take from Targaryens. Same goes for Aegon.

3. Stannis helped the North when help was needed. Their affection for Ned will make that a consideration.

4. They may have ties to the Manderlys.

1. They also know he initially planned to foster him with the Lannisters.

2. Except Dany isn't her father, and Aerys is long dead with his family overthrown so Yohn likely doesn't have too much of a chip in his shoulder regarding the Targaryens. Whereas, the Tyrells killed his son Robar, and Yohn is unable to get justice for that. Tyrion and Dany could offer him justice for his son's death, and Robert to be fostered. Stannis is far away, doesn't inspire loyalty and how many dragons does he have?

3. The North isn't the Vale, and little attention is paid to what Stannis did at the Wall.

4. There aren't any ties given.

Dany will not be arriving in Westeros for a while yet. The next moves in the Vale will be related to Stannis, Aegon and the Lannisters, not Dany. How those events unfold will determine how things stand when Dany arrives.

None of those three are anywhere near the Vale. Aegon seens to be focused on the stormlands, Dorne and the Reach, Stannis on the North and the Lannisters with the threats everywhere else except the Vale since there is no rebellion there.

[Hippocras]

1. They also know he initially planned to foster him with the Lannisters.

2. Except Dany isn't her father, and Aerys is long dead with his family overthrown so Yohn likely doesn't have too much of a chip in his shoulder regarding the Targaryens. Whereas, the Tyrells killed his son Robar, and Yohn is unable to get justice for that. Tyrion and Dany could offer him justice for his son's death, and Robert to be fostered. Stannis is far away, doesn't inspire loyalty and how many dragons does he have?

3. The North isn't the Vale, and little attention is paid to what Stannis did at the Wall.

4. There aren't any ties given.

None of those three are anywhere near the Vale. Aegon seens to be focused on the stormlands, Dorne and the Reach, Stannis on the North and the Lannisters with the threats everywhere else except the Vale since there is no rebellion there.

1. No, Jon Arryn planned to foster Robert with Stannis. Later, King Robert possibly planned to foster him with Tywin, or that might have been a lie Lysa used to smear the Lannisters as part of her disinformation campaign on behalf of Littlefinger. However the maester in the Vale confirms that Jon Arryn's plan was never Tywin. It was Stannis. The Royces' loyalty was to Jon Arryn and it is his plan that matters.

2. Dany is not her father, I agree, but the Royces don't know a thing about her and have no good reason to fight for her at this time, though that certainly might change later in the game depending on how she goes about invading Westeros. But that isn't really the point because the next moves in the Vale won't have anything to do with Dany. She is far far away, lost on the Dothraki sea.

3. I know the North is not the Vale. The point is the Vale is divided. Some families in the Vale wanted to declare for Robb from the beginning and have strong loyalties to Robb's former coalition. Others will follow Littlefinger. The Royces are in the first group, and the more they learn about events previous and current, the more likely they are to declare for the North, whether the North is behind Stannis by then or not.

[Fire Eater]

1. No, Jon Arryn planned to foster Robert with Stannis. Later, King Robert possibly planned to foster him with Tywin, or that might have been a lie Lysa used to smear the Lannisters as part of her disinformation campaign on behalf of Littlefinger. However the maester in the Vale confirms that Jon Arryn's plan was never Tywin. It was Stannis. The Royces' loyalty was to Jon Arryn and it is his plan that matters.

1. I doubt Jon let Royce in on who he planned to foster Robert, but point taken, Lannister wasn't his idea.

2. Dany is not her father, I agree, but the Royces don't know a thing about her and have no good reason to fight for her at this time, though that certainly might change later in the game depending on how she goes about invading Westeros. But that isn't really the point because the next moves in the Vale won't have anything to do with Dany. She is far far away, lost on the Dothraki sea.

2. Royce has vowed to remove LF, and he stands alone. Dany would give him the strength he needs, and I doubt he would turn away someone with three dragons in his face. She isn't lost in the Dothraki Sea she was just found by Jhaqo. Dany is coming to Westeros in TWoW, and clues point to the Vale backing her, especially since the Vale supported Rhaneyra in the first Dance. Tyrion is still itching to repay his debt to the Vale, and he and YOhn share the same enemy, LF. There is nothing pointing to other parties making moves in the Vale. Connington doesn't give the Vale much thought, and neither does Stannis nor Cersei.

3. I know the North is not the Vale. The point is the Vale is divided. Some families in the Vale wanted to declare for Robb from the beginning and have strong loyalties to Robb's former coalition. Others will follow Littlefinger. The Royces are in the first group, and the more they learn about events previous and current, the more likely they are to declare for the North, whether the North is behind Stannis by then or not.

3. Except the North isn't a king or a lord, so who exactly would they declare for? Stannis is busying gathering the North, and there are many geographical impediments preventing Royce from joining up with Stannis. There is nothing pointing to the Royces wanting to join Stannis. The foreshadowing points more strongly to Dany and Tyrion.

[Lee-Sensei]

3. I know the North is not the Vale. The point is the Vale is divided. Some families in the Vale wanted to declare for Robb from the beginning and have strong loyalties to Robb's former coalition. Others will follow Littlefinger. The Royces are in the first group, and the more they learn about events previous and current, the more likely they are to declare for the North, whether the North is behind Stannis by then or not.

I can't help but say this. No one in the Vale wanted to declare for Robb as far as we know. Some wanted to ally with Robb, but they aren't going to follow the Northmen and where ever they go with their tails between their legs and do what they say.

[Hippocras]

I can't help but say this. No one in the Vale wanted to declare for Robb as far as we know. Some wanted to ally with Robb, but they aren't going to follow the Northmen and where ever they go with their tails between their legs and do what they say.

No one proposed they would.

"Declare for" in a war context means supporting the cause of, with military assistance. Which they absolutely did want to do.

[Lee-Sensei]

No one proposed they would.

"Declare for" in a war context means supporting the cause of, with military assistance. Which they absolutely did want to do.

Fair enough, but one would think that they'd have their own cause. I.E., avenging their Lord who was "murdered by the Lannisters". Jon Arryn was as loved in the Vale as Ned was in the North.

Anyways, I think House Royce will protect Sansa and help her get back to Winterfell.

[Fire Eater]

Anyways, I think House Royce will protect Sansa and help her get back to Winterfell.

Except that wouldn't develop her story and character any further, IMO. Her POV would be pretty much pointless when we already have Davos and Jon to see what is going on.

[JoeyBanana]

One of the reasons why the Vale lords were eager to join the fight was obviously that the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance was still technically intact and many felt obligated to help their old allies.

I think especially Yohn (and certainly some other proud knights and lords) aren't exactly happy how things turned out, with their forced neutrality indirectly helping the Lannisters/Tyrells to win the war and annihilate House Tully and Stark. If they'll help Sansa to get rid off Littlefinger, this will be their primary motivation, to make up for their inaction and betrayal of an alliance that still existed. Sympathy and old family ties will probably be another factor albeit a minor one. Baelish needs to be deposed before they can join anyone unless they want a civil war in the Vale and i don't think they will risk that.

That's the Royce's and Yohn's big role in this story. Maybe if they succeed, they'll be a major part in restoring the old Tully-Stark-Arryn alliance but that's it. I don't think they'll suddenly side with Dany or Aegon just because.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

One of the reasons why the Vale lords were eager to join the fight was obviously that the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance was still technically intact and many felt obligated to help their old allies.

Good point. I think it's plain that we're still to learn a thing or two about Robert's Rebellion, and perhaps these Vale lords might be the vehicle for such. Was Bronze Yohn around back then?