Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part III: ASoS & ADwD

[HexMachina]

Continuing my earlier thoughts, sorry...

Now, taking a look at this, we see that compared to others in the series who claim or seek to claim power, she has very little knowledge/education of ruling. In addition, all she knows of her own history comes from a highly biased source. She does have a lot of life experience, particularly as a Victim, and this is likely why she is so compassionate to the slaves etc who are oppressed and has her clearly defined "black and white" view of things. I believe that her lack of typical "teaching" and observations of ruling (e.g. The Stark children seeing Lord Eddard ruling, Sansa watching court proceedings in King's Landing etc.) account for her black/white view and the errors she will make in Meereen, which seem to be rooted in naivety and inexperience . For example, her own experience as the Victim (her brother bullying her, being "sold" to Khal Drogo) leads her to immediately sympathise with the oppressed and view the Slavers as bad and the slaves as good, and act in extremely emotional/passionate ways (the crucifixions spring to mind, the wine seller's daughters later)

This of course, presents the argument that if she knows nothing of ruling, she has no business being a Queen...

Which is of course a valid argument. If you have no experience, no education, and essentially no clue, then really you have no business ruling until you know what you are about. Ruling a large group of people is not a game, and mistakes can and do cost lives, as Dany will soon discover in Meereen. However, Dany has caused the problems changes in Slaver's Bay, and so one could argue it is her duty to rule there and resolve them. This works in regards to her "right to rule" Meereen, but not Westeros. Her reasoning for wanting to be Queen of Westeros are primarily, imo, down to "right of blood" and the Throne being "stolen" from her family, which is something she had been taught by her brother since she was just a young girl. This isn't to justify her btw, but to provide possible reasoning behind her actions and desires.

[SeanF]

I thought she was thinking more about how she's just as responsible for the death of Hazzea as Drogon is, with the comparison being that she is the equivalent of the usurper and the dragons are her "dogs". But that'll be more relevant to discuss when we reach the next chapter.

This is a really great post, and I think it covers most of the problem here.

If Dany had conquered Astapor and moved on, getting bribes from Yunkai and then Meereen (I expect they would have just paid her off had she not rejected the Yunkai'i but spared their city - she looked antagonistic but not ruthless), most people would probably like her more than they do now

It kind of comes back to Dany being the complete symbol of "fire". She doesn't order cruel actions because she's cold and calculating, she does it because she's so passionate.

Thanks. She plainly isn't "Octavian with Teats". Octavian's story would be unbelievable, if it wasn't true. A teenage boy who goes from being an obscure 16 year old, on Caesar's death, to co-ruler of the Roman Republic at 19, coolly marking down rivals and enemies for execution, and outwitting them at every turn.

I think many critics would greatly admire her, if she was such a person. I'm not sure who she can be realistically compared to. Some might say Genghis Khan, but I think we'll have to wait and see how she handles the Dothraki in TWOW, to see if that's correct.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Continuing my earlier thoughts, sorry...

Which is of course a valid argument. If you have no experience, no education, and essentially no clue, then really you have no business ruling until you know what you are about. Ruling a large group of people is not a game, and mistakes can and do cost lives, as Dany will soon discover in Meereen. However, Dany has caused the problems changes in Slaver's Bay, and so one could argue it is her duty to rule there and resolve them. This works in regards to her "right to rule" Meereen, but not Westeros. Her reasoning for wanting to be Queen of Westeros are primarily, imo, down to "right of blood" and the Throne being "stolen" from her family, which is something she had been taught by her brother since she was just a young girl. This isn't to justify her btw, but to provide possible reasoning behind her actions and desires.

You hit I spot on.

I think someone mentioned earlier in the last re-read thread that there is a difference between what Dany wants and what Viserys wants. Dany's main reason for the throne is more of a duty she believes she must accomplish, especially since her brother is dead, even in AGOT she was happy with the life she had as a khaleesi, but then she remembered that she is the last Targaryen so she has a duty to avenge her family and at the same time take back what was theirs. But on the other side there is a girl that just wants a house with a red door. In a way she has blurred the two into believing Westeros is her home.

I also think Dany is aware, if she isn't a competent ruler then she has no buisness ruling Westeros, thats why she said "How can I rule seven kingdoms if I cant rule one city"

[BearQueen87]

Continuing my earlier thoughts, sorry...

Which is of course a valid argument. If you have no experience, no education, and essentially no clue, then really you have no business ruling until you know what you are about. Ruling a large group of people is not a game, and mistakes can and do cost lives, as Dany will soon discover in Meereen. However, Dany has caused the problems changes in Slaver's Bay, and so one could argue it is her duty to rule there and resolve them. This works in regards to her "right to rule" Meereen, but not Westeros. Her reasoning for wanting to be Queen of Westeros are primarily, imo, down to "right of blood" and the Throne being "stolen" from her family, which is something she had been taught by her brother since she was just a young girl. This isn't to justify her btw, but to provide possible reasoning behind her actions and desires.

I agree. I'm not sure if, when she gets there, she'll want to sit the IT anymore. I think it's something she has been told she should want, not something she actually wanted.

I go back to one of her first chapters in aGoT (one of my favorite passages)

"What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?" she asked him.

"Home," he said. His voice was thick with longing.

"I pray for home too," she told him, believing it.

Ser Jorah laughed. "Look around you then, Khalessi."

But it was not the plains of the Dany saw then. it was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

Westeros is an imagined reality for Dany. It's where she thinks home is, but home isn't a specific place. It's wherever Dany is loved and safe. She imagines that Westeros will be that place. But the reality of Westeros as it stands at present is anything but this imagined reality.

To bring this back to ADWD, she keeps doing it. In Dany II and Dany III, when we get to them, there are at least two instances of Dany's imagined reality and the reality in which she lives and how they do not line up.

[MoIaF]

For me, Dany's ultimate destiny is magical, not political. She might help shape (or shake up, I like that) Westeros for the new era that it's about to find itself in post-Other-Battle, but I don't think she plays a role past that. This is not to say that she dies! (Please GRRM. PLEASE). Rather, that the more important reason for her and her dragons isn't to conquer Westeros, but to go North and defeat the Others and whatever they want. Now, whether she decides to bend the knee to Jon (if R+L = Legit J) or she just decides that ruling isn't in her and she wants the house with the red door, I don't think she'll sit on any throne in the end, and I'm not sure if she'll even stay in Westeros.

That's how I've always seen her.

This is very much in line with how I also view the series. The Game of Thrones is important insofar as it has destabilized Westeros in the wake of the coming winter. I believe as the story progresses the Game will become more and more irrelevant because it will not matter who is sitting in the IT - what will matter is how to survive the winter and defeat the Others. In that I think is the importance of Dany's character to the magical elements of the series. Like Bran she has had more magical aspects to her story than almost any other character. In GRRM recent interview he said Dany will embrace her heritage and her words, I wonder if there is a magical background to those words. The Targaryen's are highly associated with the magical, with their dragons and prophetic dreams that's as much a part of their heritage as is the conquering and ruling. I don't know what the future will hold for Dany, of she'll survive or not but at this moment I think it'll become hugely important that she embraces the more fantastical elements of herself.

Suzanna, we can all dig holes in the ground and create these strawman arguments thus blocking the thread and not allowing it to carry its mission. Or we can all move on. And deal with silly positions fron whatever side they come from, with text proofs. It's the choice ahead of us. I think that this thread has enough of collective intellect to deal with troll hatred

I think what Suzanna and Nictarion where getting at is that we already deal with a lot of misconceptions about Dany in the general forum we don't want to have to deal with them here as well. This thread is to discuss the text, if something can be easily disproven by the text then there is not need to have to discuss or argue about it. That is not to say we can't disagree with each other, we do and for the most part we've been pretty civilized about it, with a few heated moments aside. But personally I don't want to have to defend Dany in a thread where we are literally discussing the text and trying to best interpret it from arguments that are not really text based. I think it's also important that if you are going to participate in a thread in which you are re-reading a POV of a character you aren't fond of you have to be somewhat openminded or else what's the point of re-reading if you are going to dig in your heals on what you already believe. And for the most part people who are fans of Dany openly admit she is flawed and has made mistake, frankly I think that's why we like her. That's why accusations of whitewashing are bothersome, most of us will talk about her flaws but we defend her because we just value her virtues more than her flaws.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is very much in line with how I also view the series. The Game of Thrones is important insofar as it has destabilized Westeros in the wake of the coming winter. I believe as the story progresses the Game will become more and more irrelevant because it will not matter who is sitting in the IT - what will matter is how to survive the winter and defeat the Others. In that I think is the importance of Dany's character to the magical elements of the series. Like Bran she has had more magical aspects to her story than almost any other character. In GRRM recent interview he said Dany will embrace her heritage and her words, I wonder if there is a magical background to those words. The Targaryen's are highly associated with the magical, with their dragons and prophetic dreams that's as much a part of their heritage as is the conquering and ruling. I don't know what the future will hold for Dany, of she'll survive or not but at this moment I think it'll become hugely important that she embraces the more fantastical elements of herself.

I actually think that's what Quaithe is trying to tell her to do. Quaithe counts as one of Dany's advisers in a way, however whiles Dany is in Meereen, Quaithe never tells her who the Harpy is and considering she has glass candles I am sure she knows, but instead she only warns Dany in terms of the people coming to her for her dragons just like she warns her in Qarth. Quathe is like Bloodraven, she doesn't have a political agenda or doesn't really care about the politics in Meereen, she seems more interested in the dragons being used for something more than just politics.

When Dany is about to trade Drogon (Only Dany knows the real plan) Quaithe appears and then when Dany chains the dragons Quaithe appears again, she seems to appear when Dany makes or is about to make an important decision involving her dragons. So whatever directions she is telling Dany has to do with dragons/magic etc.

[BearQueen87]

I actually think that's what Quaithe is trying to tell her to do. Quaithe counts as one of Dany's advisers in a way, however whiles Dany is in Meereen, Quaithe never tells her who the Harpy is and considering she has glass candles I am sure she knows, but instead she only warns Dany in terms of the people coming to her for her dragons just like she warns her in Qarth. Quathe is like Bloodraven, she doesn't have a political agenda or doesn't really care about the politics in Meereen, she seems more interested in the dragons being used for something more than just politics.

When Dany is about to trade Drogon (Only Dany knows the real plan) Quaithe appears and then when Dany chains the dragons Quaithe appears again, she seems to appear when Dany makes or is about to make an important decision involving her dragons. So whatever directions she is telling Dany has to do with dragons/magic etc.

Quaithe is very much her spiritual adviser. I agree with most everything here (though I think is also a small political motivation in that I think Quaithe is Sheira Seastar. Bran has his Great Bastard; Dany has hers--but mostly, it's magical). And yes, Quaithe is very interested in Dany and her dragons (something to tuck away until the final Dany POV)

[Parwan]

A note concerning opinions of Dany:

Yes, there is a lot of commentary on the crucifixions on various threads. Interestingly, there is close to no commentary on the matter within the story. That's not the case with other important events e.g. the Red Wedding. Neither Illyrio nor Tyrion mentions Dany's choice of punishments. Maybe they don't know about it? Yeah, maybe. It seems fairly likely that at least Illyrio would have heard about it. At any rate, many other people have many other things to say about the dragon queen. No one, as far as I recall, makes specific reference to the way 163 Meereenese nobles died. There is a possible passing reference to the matter among the many "calumnies" (as Haldon calls them) aimed at Dany.

We can discuss this issue more fully later. For now, I'll give a preview of future comments from me. It won't surprise people who have read a lot of my posts. The crucifixions and their aftermath say something important about Daenerys. They also say something important about her world and how she fits into it.

[cade]

Good to see this re-read has become more active, with new voices and greater diversity. I welcome any non-Dany fans participating so long as they don't post misinformation.

Here I'll compare one of Dany's statements to those of two other important characters. In A Storm of Swords, we read:

"He [Robert] was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice."

Obviously, Dany wasn't around for most of Robert's rule. She isn't making an empirical point. She doesn't think that it is necessary to delve into various decisions the man made or various actions he took. He was a usurper. It is no more possible for a usurper to do justice than it is for Satan to do good. In A Storm of Swords, Kevan Lannister says, "Justice belongs to the throne." In A Game of Thrones, Eddard Stark says, "All justice flows from the king." Daenerys Targaryen would, no doubt, have agreed with these (clearly defective) statements. There are significant differences in the three people. They certainly support different rulers. At a deep level though, their thinking is very similar, essentially identical.

She said "He did no justice," not "He couldn't do justice." As you said in a follow-up post, "She is not Data from Star Trek. She doesn't explicitly state what follows from what, what is the basis for each and every conclusion." She could have just been referring to his decisions that she believed she knew about, and if so she.wouldn't have necessarily qualified her statement in those terms. It feels better to just say "He did no justice." People commonly use such generalizations, especially when talking about politicians they dislike.

Dany strongly suspects that her father was mad and fears the same happening to her. She acknowledges that she has faults and must learn to be a good ruler, which partially motivated her stay in Meereen. She doesn't believe that justice automatically flows from Targaryen rule.

Dany is often criticized for freeing the slaves in Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen because she supposedly didn't respect the "cultural differences" and tried to "impose" her own values, which is seen as an example of imperialism etc. An argument that I deeply despise, since it equates societies/cultures with their ruling elite and absolutely ignores the oppressed, who don't get a say in it - e.g, slavery should supposedly be left to flourish because it's a part of their "culture" and therefore what those people want, but nobody actually asked the slaves, the oppressed, if they wanted to be slaves. And contrary to what Dany haters claim, we know that most of the former slaves adore Dany and feel really happy that they have been freed. It's also, IMO, a very dishonest excuse to allow atrocities to continue and do nothing, because "it's their culture" sounds better than "I just don't care about these people in another part of the world, far away from me".

Vital points that seem to be rarely considered. I share your disdain for the totally fallacious analogies to imperialism. Dany is leading a popular insurrection, and she has no foreign power backing her. Her army overwhelmingly consists of people who were either indigenous to Slaver's Bay or kidnapped to it by slavers. Yet many people ignore these facts, discard the enslaved masses and talk as if the slavers are legitimate representatives of the population. They are then frequently defended as just minding their own business when "the foreign white girl" interfered, but in truth they were running an inter-continental human-trafficking ring, abducting children like Missandei and her brothers from sovereign territories thousands of miles away.

Dany isn't just basing her claim upon brute force and right of conquest. Her argument is that the man who overthrew her father is a Usurper, who had no right to the Iron Throne.

Dany was taken away from Westeros as an infant, because she'd have been killed otherwise. Likewise, the woman fled her house, because she'd have been killed otherwise. The idea that someone loses title to their house, immediately after having been driven from it, is absurd. And, Dany certainly doesn't think that she lost her claim to Westeros.

Yeah, I don't think it matters that Dany isn't asking for the IT. She believes she has a right to it, but doesn't believe this woman has a right to her house. It's a clear analogy by Martin, thought it falls apart in the details. The woman was rich, thus almost certainly a slaver, whose husband and sons had died fighting for a cause Dany regards as illegitimate, whereas she believes her family's cause was legitimate. In Dany's eyes, slaves rising up to take a slaver's home wouldn't be remotely equivalent to what the Usurper did to her family, but she didn't cite any of this reasoning. She just says the woman lost her right to the house when she fled from it in terror, which is irrational.

If she was a slaver, I'd say she had no right to that house, but in her efforts to make peace with the slavers Dany never had them pay such reparations, not even those responsible for the mass destruction of crops, including burning olive fields that Dany says will take thirty years to be restored to a truly productive state. She only has the Great Masters pay a tax for killings by the Harpy, and it's so small that it has no apparent impact.

That touches on a discussion I had with another poster, who dislikes Dany.

She, and I think a lot of readers, like characters who are cold-blooded, strategic thinkers. So, the sort of character who thinks "slavery's bad, but realistically, there's nothing I can do about it" and sets about methodically planning the conquest of Westeros would gain a lot of respect from them. Dany's not a cold-blooded strategic thinker. The kind of character I'm talking about is one who'd see the Lhazareen village being sacked, shrug, and walk on.

Then there are the readers who like a good villain (who may also be a cold-blooded strategic thinker) and respect the kind of character who would turn the Unsullied onto the Good Masters, plunder the city, sell their women and children into slavery, and then march West, tricking her enemies, and burning and plundering along the way, preferably uttering some funny one-liners in the process. That type of character would see the Lhazareen village being sacked, and think "how can I profit from this?"

Hence, the popularity of characters like Varys, LF, and Roose Bolton.

I think Dany generates strong feelings, because she was written to be contentious. Someone who's kind and compassionate,but who can order horrible punishments for her enemies. Someone who's sharp-witted, but capable of making stupid mistakes. At the outset of the story, she's written very sympathetically, as Tyrion is. As the story progresses, so both characters reveal their flaws.

Well said. Audiences increasingly like to identify with "badasses" and prize competency above all else. There's nothing wrong with that if it's just escapism, but it often seems to reflect more than that. I recently listened to a Boiled Leather podcast that touched on this, mainly around 24 minutes in but also at other times (I recommend the whole thing for those interested in a discussion about the different approaches of rulers in ASoIaF, mainly examining Dany and Jon). Stefan Sasse said "It is a dangerous mindset that can lead to much suffering in reality when you are not aware of what the cost of 'ruling efficiently' is."

There's been much praise for how "efficient" Tywin was, which is also a term often applied to corporations that blithely cause suffering and death with their "externalities" that don't appear on their balance sheets. Tywin terrorized the smallfolk, obliterated guest right, destroyed food supplies desperately needed for the coming winter, but those were all "externalities" he needn't have been concerned with.

HBO execs told the writers of The Leftovers, "we're concerned that the main character is too nice a guy.” So they fixed that. Dany reached the height of her popularity when she was at her most "badass." While some of her detractors gloated that tv viewers would turn on her when the show got to her ADwD material, I said I looked forward to it, as I'd never wanted to be grouped with people who only root for Dany when she's an "efficient" conqueror. Most of her problems in ADwD stem from bad decisions she made in ASoS. People cheered her victories, ignored the warning signs and then resented her when her mistakes caught up with her. ADwD is about this teenager holding herself accountable and trying to learn, but taking on enormous responsibilities she was ill-equipped for, and having nothing resembling a suitable teacher.

Reading about Dany's struggles to make positive change in the world has been infinitely more interesting to me than reading about the litany of characters who excel at being assholes and only care about the world they'll leave behind insofar as it remembers their names.

Some More Thoughts on Meereen, Slavery, Guilt…

Dany rides in on her silver and tells the Great Masters, “I want your leaders.” That’s pretty much what one would expect. She does not say, “Who is responsible for the crucifixion of the children?” She doesn’t say anything about a trial. I believe that most conquerers in Planetos would start out more or less the same way. Collective guilt and collective punishment are widely accepted. In this respect, Daenerys Targaryen is like every other person of power in the story.

There are at least a few other rulers who would have done a better job of taking control of the city, but that’s not the point of this post. I'll also not be too concerned with moral matters, e.g. the fact that nailing people to crosses is a terrible thing, even if those executed are bad people.

It is close to certain that the queen did, indeed, get the leaders. She has Brown Ben Plumm with her. She has a whole host of former Meereenese slaves. She has people like the shavepates who come over to her side. The probability that there were minor actors, non-masters, etc. among the 163 is extremely low. It would have taken little vetting to reveal such attempted deception. Would the Hazkars, Merreq, Pahls, Loraqs, etc. have tried to trick Dany in this matter? Not much of a chance of that. It's clear that turning over the leaders is required if the other masters are going to be spared.

Additionally, aforementioned evidence strongly points to the "richest man in Meereen" having been one of the three Pahl uncles who were among the 163. People like to assume that Dany blindly trusted the names she was given by the Great Masters, but there's no basis for that. I agree it's almost certain that those crucified were in the upper-echelon of the Great Masters. If this were not the case, Martin could've easily presented evidence to the contrary. He chose not to, just as he chose not to have a single person in Meereen claim that any of the slavers, let alone the 163 crucified, were against the child crucifixions; "Unreliable narrator" doesn't work here, as there was nothing to stop Martin from having someone petition Dany on these grounds just as Hizdahr did in the alternate universe tv show.

The author, not Dany, chose to gloss over the entire event, only telling us of the crucifixions very briefly in retrospect. I think he'd be shocked by the degree to which Dany's been castigated over this in the fandom. Of course I think she was wrong and I abhor crucifixion in any circumstance, but I try to evaluate people by the times and circumstances they lived in.

The only indication we get that Dany's reprisal was even a major grievance among the slavers is when we're told the Pahls have become a house of bitter old women, and that's probably more due to all their men being killed by Dany's forces than how they died. I think the slavers were far more bothered by Dany conquering their city and freeing their slaves, and would've resorted to terrorism even if she'd let them all go.

Dany was absurdly kind to the surviving Great Masters, allowing them to return to their palatial pyramids that were made by slaves, and to keep most of their vast wealth that was made off the blood of slaves, and hire back their slaves "at wages so meagre that most could scarce afford to eat." All the while these slavers "gathered atop their lofty pyramids to complain of how the dragon queen had filled their noble city with hordes of unwashed beggars, thieves, and whores."

[Mladen]

I think what Suzanna and Nictarion where getting at is that we already deal with a lot of misconceptions about Dany in the general forum we don't want to have to deal with them here as well. This thread is to discuss the text, if something can be easily disproven by the text then there is not need to have to discuss or argue about it. That is not to say we can't disagree with each other, we do and for the most part we've been pretty civilized about it, with a few heated moments aside. But personally I don't want to have to defend Dany in a thread where we are literally discussing the text and trying to best interpret it from arguments that are not really text based. I think it's also important that if you are going to participate in a thread in which you are re-reading a POV of a character you aren't fond of you have to be somewhat openminded or else what's the point of re-reading if you are going to dig in your heals on what you already believe. And for the most part people who are fans of Dany openly admit she is flawed and has made mistake, frankly I think that's why we like her. That's why accusations of whitewashing are bothersome, most of us will talk about her flaws but we defend her because we just value her virtues more than her flaws.

The problem is that regardless of what you want, you'll have to deal with the misconceptions. Every reread on this forum has done that. Just look at the PTP and the road it had. There were accusations and misconceptions being thrown on not even daily, but hourly basis. My point is that there is no need to create a closeted thread for Dany fans, but to allow people to come and freely express their opinion and break as many misconceptions there are. Especially, with eloquent group of people such as this. So, that is my point. Instead of asking what are some people doing here, use the strength of arguments and text proofs to break the misconceptions. Some people will listen, some won't... But the thread's mission will be more fulfilled then just having 5,10 or 15 people posting who already agrees on all the issues.

Now, I move on Tyrion III, ADwD chapter analysis.

[Mladen]

Tyrion III

“All men must serve”

In this chapter, Tyrion continues his journey, by departing from Illyrio and meeting the Griff’s company. Along with the rich description of the world of Essos, snippets of the whereabouts of Dothraki khals and introduction of the new cast, this chapter mostly revolves around the idea of “valar doeheris” especially with regard to Daenerys. We touched this in the last chapter, but this one explicitly discusses several things that are of importance for the future interactions. As with the last chapter, the main focus here is Daenerys and the connections with her.

1. Illyrio’s different approach to different Targaryens

That Illyrio had both Daenerys and Viserys in one and “Aegon” in another hand is more than clear at this point. But, the major discrepancy is in the attitude towards two groups. While Viserys is being watched condescendingly and Daenerys sold to Dothraki, Young Griff gets another treatment. The one we certainly have never seen in his dealings with Aerys’ children. For me, personally, this was always one of those “red alert” moments on the read and reread. The difference in how same things are done is rather clear, and those differences speak volumes. Let we just look at the 2 paralleled situations:

“What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

“I shall treasure them always.” Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

(Daenerys II, A Game of Thrones)

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.”

Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …”

The difference in these gifts can be sensed through and through. While dragon eggs are far worthier than candid ginger and some robes, there is no doubt that the sentiments behind those gifts are completely different. Dany’s eggs were given as a present, a token of pretended loyalty, respect and care. In contrast, the way Illyrio sounds and behaves with those chests for Young Griff suggests all that was missed in those chapters in Game of thrones. I am firm believer that sentiments are not just powerful weapon but also an indicator of every plot there is in the Game, and Illyrio’s behavior talks a lot about YG and his identity.

2. What can you offer to the Queen?

In previous chapter, I talked about what Daenerys is for the various players in the Game of thrones. The different perspective on her certainly is important as those differences also manifest in the form of how various people approaches. But, when it comes to the man whose father’s hands were drenched in Targaryen blood, there is little doubt at what kind of welcome one can expect with Daenerys. But the pragmatism here is hoping to overcome the emotions and all the bad blood. And smart man as Tyrion certainly knows how to play the few cards he has in his hands.

“The king I slew was sitting on her throne, and all those I betrayed were lions, so it seems to me that I have already done the queen good service.”

Why would you support the cause of Queen Daenerys?”

“For gold and glory,” the dwarf said cheerfully. “Oh, and hate. If you had ever met my sister, you would understand.”

“And how do you propose to serve her?”

“With my tongue.” He licked his fingers, one by one. “I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime, in battle. I know which lords are brave and which are craven, which are loyal and which are venal. I can deliver allies to her. And I know much and more of dragons, as your halfmaester will tell you. I’m amusing too, and I don’t eat much. Consider me your own true imp.”

Tyrion’s hopes here are bound to his utility to Daenerys. Undoubtedly, he can offer her a lot, but he also knows that some things are not easily forgotten. We see here that Tyrion is ready to play on everything he has, and few things he doesn’t. He is prepared to present the murder of Tywin as the servitude to Daenerys, he will bend a true a bit to accommodate the only person left in the world who can give him what he wants – vengeance. We should never forget that Tyrion’s goal aligns mostly with Daenerys’ but also that his motifs are far different and that he will do what must be done to accomplish them. Between his hatred towards his family, desire to have Casterly Rock and love for dragons, Daenerys seems like a jackpot for Tyrion. The only thing is that she will mistrust him. So, Tyrion here wonderfully present his plan of gaining Dany’s attention with utility and pragmatism. And he is generally right about it. He knows things Dany certainly doesn’t. He is far better equipped to prepare her with the challenges of Westeros than Jorah, Barristan or questionable allies like Victarion, Illyrio or someone else. But regardless of pragmatism here, we should always have in mind that Dany is also a human being. A person with emotions, deeply rooted opinions and some misconceptions and someone who has all the reason to reject Tyrion’s offer. Although I believe that Tyrion will serve her, this certainly won’t be a smooth ride. And we can definitely count on another “reason v emotion” dilemma in Dany.

This chapter also gave us glimpse of the situation among Dothraki, where is enhanced that Pono is the khal to worry about. More than that, we also see the web Illyrio waves around Daenerys and how it involves Griff’s company, especially with the talk about “wedding in Volantis”. But, as I said, the focus here is bringing two conflicted sides together. We see the desire and the way one side has in mind, but how Daenerys will react to Tyrion certainly is a question. All men must serve is a lesson Tyrion learned as a boy from Tywin’s cruelty, but the challenge is how to make yourself irreplaceable to make someone forget the bad blood. Daenerys certainly proved that she can put her emotions aside in dealings with people she dislike and mistrust, but we should never assume that changes of perspective, agendas and personalities won’t create a few bumps or irreconcilable differences even in “good guys” uniting.

[SeanF]

Good to see this re-read has become more active, with new voices and greater diversity. I welcome any non-Dany fans participating so long as they don't post misinformation.

Well said. Audiences increasingly like to identify with "badasses" and prize competency above all else. There's nothing wrong with that if it's just escapism, but it often seems to reflect more than that. I recently listened to a Boiled Leather podcast that touched on this, mainly around 24 minutes in but also at other times (I recommend the whole thing for those interested in a discussion about the different approaches of rulers in ASoIaF, mainly examining Dany and Jon). Stefan Sasse said "It is a dangerous mindset that can lead to much suffering in reality when you are not aware of what the cost of 'ruling efficiently' is."

It's similar to the very widespread desire for Sansa's "controversial" chapter to involve her poisoning or suffocating Sweetrobin.

I could see LF trapping Sansa into a position where she has no option but to connive at Sweetrobin's death, but I think it would be quite out of character for her willingly to do so.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thanks for the write up Mladen :)

TYrion III

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.”

Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …”

I very much agree with your analysis of this conversation, I would like to add that you can see how Illyrio views Dany as a tool or a weapon. An iron throne springboard if you will, not a dear loved one at all. With her it is all business business for Illyrio, he seems to have no sentiment for her. In the last Tyrion chapter he talks about how he wanted to break into her bedroom and how she is prettier than his first wife, but he also sent her to the Dothraki sea to die. So I think he sort of likes her but is not attached to her at all. When he is talking about sending candies to fAegon he "sounded sad" . I take this to mean that he is sad he cannot go with them right now to see Aegon. He misses his son, he wants to be there when his son comes into his great (false) name and meets his intended bride and possibly, be married in Meereen. He is acting like a dad here, very different than how he acts towards Dany.

“The king I slew was sitting on her throne, and all those I betrayed were lions, so it seems to me that I have already done the queen good service.”

Why would you support the cause of Queen Daenerys?”

“For gold and glory,” the dwarf said cheerfully. “Oh, and hate. If you had ever met my sister, you would understand.”

“And how do you propose to serve her?”

“With my tongue.” He licked his fingers, one by one. “I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime, in battle. I know which lords are brave and which are craven, which are loyal and which are venal. I can deliver allies to her. And I know much and more of dragons, as your halfmaester will tell you. I’m amusing too, and I don’t eat much. Consider me your own true imp.”

TYrion sees Dany very differently than Illyrio does, she is his ticket to many things. The question on everyones mind is how will Dany take Tyrion. IMO if Tyrion tries to sell the murder of Joffrey and Tywin as "gifts for the dragon queen" she will see right through that. She will immediately question his motives for killing his family and he will not be able to lie and say he did it all for her. That would not make sense anyway given the time frame. Tyrion has been able to talk his way out of almost every bad situation he has ever been in, I think it will be much the same with Dany but he will have to choose his words so carefully. He will not be able to be a smart ass and feed her a ton of bullshit as he does with so many others. I also do not think he should go to her asking "where do whores go?"

Of course, this may not be how he comes to Dany at all. from all looks at that sample chapter, it is entirely possible he is headed to mend Viserion's wing and will come to her with her white dragon. In which case she will accept him no problem, IMO.

[BearQueen87]

Tyrion III

[snip]

Nice write up! A few things

1. Illyrio’s different approach to different Targaryens

That Illyrio had both Daenerys and Viserys in one and “Aegon” in another hand is more than clear at this point. But, the major discrepancy is in the attitude towards two groups. While Viserys is being watched condescendingly and Daenerys sold to Dothraki, Young Griff gets another treatment. The one we certainly have never seen in his dealings with Aerys’ children. For me, personally, this was always one of those “red alert” moments on the read and reread. The difference in how same things are done is rather clear, and those differences speak volumes. Let we just look at the 2 paralleled situations:

“What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

“I shall treasure them always.” Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

(Daenerys II, A Game of Thrones)

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.”

Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …”

The difference in these gifts can be sensed through and through. While dragon eggs are far worthier than candid ginger and some robes, there is no doubt that the sentiments behind those gifts are completely different. Dany’s eggs were given as a present, a token of pretended loyalty, respect and care. In contrast, the way Illyrio sounds and behaves with those chests for Young Griff suggests all that was missed in those chapters in Game of thrones. I am firm believer that sentiments are not just powerful weapon but also an indicator of every plot there is in the Game, and Illyrio’s behavior talks a lot about YG and his identity.

This line of thought continues with Tyrion's final glimpse of Illyrio as he sets off with the Halfmaseter and Duck

"Good fortune," Illyrio called after them. "Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra's hands."

The last that Tyrion Lannister saw of Illyrio Mopastis, the magister was standing my his litter in his brocade robes, his massive shoulders slumped. As his figure dwindled in their dust, the lord of cheese looked almost small.

Obviously, Illyrio is in morning not to see his and to miss his son's wedding, certainly an event a father would want to attend. Many red flags in this chapter when it comes to Illyrio and fAegon. And he's swearing by his wife, who was probably fAegon's mother.

About Tyrion: he may be a wicked man, but he's right about one thing; he can provide Dany with the sort of information she needs. His tongue can spill all sorts of secrets and helpful tips. And more than that, he's very good at seeing through lies. He knows exactly who Griff is. And he doesn't exactly hide that he knows it either, calling him a knight, a lord, and even alluding to "winged lions" (griffins).

So I agree with Suzanna Stormborn , Tyrion will have to pick his words very carefully with Dany and not let his tongue get away from him (which has been known to happen) but he has a talent for that anyway. I've been wondering how the Harpy might be uncovered and it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion is the one who uncovers that plot and presents the evidence to Dany.

If he should ride in on a dragon, then awesome. This chapter proves how much he knows about them. Tyrion has more than just secrets of the Game to tell Dany; he can enlighten her about her own children. Bonus points!

[SeanF]

Thanks for the write up Mladen :)

He will not be able to be a smart ass and feed her a ton of bullshit as he does with so many others. I also do not think he should go to her asking "where do whores go?"

.

He should definitely avoid commenting that she should lie on her back and spread her legs for him, or other remarks about her private parts. :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nice write up! A few things

This line of thought continues with Tyrion's final glimpse of Illyrio as he sets off with the Halfmaseter and Duck

Obviously, Illyrio is in morning not to see his and to miss his son's wedding, certainly an event a father would want to attend. Many red flags in this chapter when it comes to Illyrio and fAegon. And he's swearing by his wife, who was probably fAegon's mother.

About Tyrion: he may be a wicked man, but he's right about one thing; he can provide Dany with the sort of information she needs. His tongue can spill all sorts of secrets and helpful tips. And more than that, he's very good at seeing through lies. He knows exactly who Griff is. And he doesn't exactly hide that he knows it either, calling him a knight, a lord, and even alluding to "winged lions" (griffins).

So I agree with Suzanna Stormborn , Tyrion will have to pick his words very carefully with Dany and not let his tongue get away from him (which has been known to happen) but he has a talent for that anyway. I've been wondering how the Harpy might be uncovered and it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion is the one who uncovers that plot and presents the evidence to Dany.

If he should ride in on a dragon, then awesome. This chapter proves how much he knows about them. Tyrion has more than just secrets of the Game to tell Dany; he can enlighten her about her own children. Bonus points!

Thanks BQ :)

Yes I like your other quote, and I completely agree that he is sad he will miss his sons wedding, and it makes perfect sense for him to bring up Serra in that same thought. She is fAegons mother, and I am sure Illyrio would be sad thinking of his dead wife and how they both have to miss their son's wedding. Tyrion mentions how Illyrio looks small as he pulls away from the Cheesemonger. I think this is also a reference to him being a father, fathers are small when it comes to their children. Like they are in the hands of gods, they have no control, especially Illyrio at this point who can only do so much for his son. And what he really has to do is stay away from him if they want to pull off this giant mummer's hoax of convincing the world that fAegon is in fact Rhaegar's son and not Illyrio's. Also, given fAegon's statements about Rhaegar, it seems as though Aegon does not know that Illyrio is his father. I doubt that fAegon has spent an exorbitant amount of time with Illyrio at all, he definitely was not in Pentos when Dnay was. Anyway I am just saying that Illyrio seems 'small' because he cannot physically control the situation with his son, he has to rely on all these other people, which can obviously always go wrong.

He should definitely avoid commenting that she should lie on her back and spread her legs for him, or other remarks about her private parts. :)

:) Yeah, Dany has a sense of humor, which I bet in the future her and Tyrion wil be able to laugh about things. But he is going to have to walk on eggshells when he first meets her.

[SeanF]

I'd never thought of Young Griff as being Illyrio's son. That's definitely food for thought.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'd never thought of Young Griff as being Illyrio's son. That's definitely food for thought.

For reals???

Check out this thread. It is absolutely the truth of the matter IMO. He is the descendant of Aerion and the Blackfyres.

All the exiles brought together in one person.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104644-the-brightfyre-theory/

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Tyrion III

“All men must serve”

In this chapter, Tyrion continues his journey, by departing from Illyrio and meeting the Griff’s company. Along with the rich description of the world of Essos, snippets of the whereabouts of Dothraki khals and introduction of the new cast, this chapter mostly revolves around the idea of “valar doeheris” especially with regard to Daenerys. We touched this in the last chapter, but this one explicitly discusses several things that are of importance for the future interactions. As with the last chapter, the main focus here is Daenerys and the connections with her.

1. Illyrio’s different approach to different Targaryens

That Illyrio had both Daenerys and Viserys in one and “Aegon” in another hand is more than clear at this point. But, the major discrepancy is in the attitude towards two groups. While Viserys is being watched condescendingly and Daenerys sold to Dothraki, Young Griff gets another treatment. The one we certainly have never seen in his dealings with Aerys’ children. For me, personally, this was always one of those “red alert” moments on the read and reread. The difference in how same things are done is rather clear, and those differences speak volumes. Let we just look at the 2 paralleled situations:

“What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

“I shall treasure them always.” Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

(Daenerys II, A Game of Thrones)

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.”

Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …”

The difference in these gifts can be sensed through and through. While dragon eggs are far worthier than candid ginger and some robes, there is no doubt that the sentiments behind those gifts are completely different. Dany’s eggs were given as a present, a token of pretended loyalty, respect and care. In contrast, the way Illyrio sounds and behaves with those chests for Young Griff suggests all that was missed in those chapters in Game of thrones. I am firm believer that sentiments are not just powerful weapon but also an indicator of every plot there is in the Game, and Illyrio’s behavior talks a lot about YG and his identity.

2. What can you offer to the Queen?

In previous chapter, I talked about what Daenerys is for the various players in the Game of thrones. The different perspective on her certainly is important as those differences also manifest in the form of how various people approaches. But, when it comes to the man whose father’s hands were drenched in Targaryen blood, there is little doubt at what kind of welcome one can expect with Daenerys. But the pragmatism here is hoping to overcome the emotions and all the bad blood. And smart man as Tyrion certainly knows how to play the few cards he has in his hands.

“The king I slew was sitting on her throne, and all those I betrayed were lions, so it seems to me that I have already done the queen good service.”

Why would you support the cause of Queen Daenerys?”

“For gold and glory,” the dwarf said cheerfully. “Oh, and hate. If you had ever met my sister, you would understand.”

“And how do you propose to serve her?”

“With my tongue.” He licked his fingers, one by one. “I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime, in battle. I know which lords are brave and which are craven, which are loyal and which are venal. I can deliver allies to her. And I know much and more of dragons, as your halfmaester will tell you. I’m amusing too, and I don’t eat much. Consider me your own true imp.”

Tyrion’s hopes here are bound to his utility to Daenerys. Undoubtedly, he can offer her a lot, but he also knows that some things are not easily forgotten. We see here that Tyrion is ready to play on everything he has, and few things he doesn’t. He is prepared to present the murder of Tywin as the servitude to Daenerys, he will bend a true a bit to accommodate the only person left in the world who can give him what he wants – vengeance. We should never forget that Tyrion’s goal aligns mostly with Daenerys’ but also that his motifs are far different and that he will do what must be done to accomplish them. Between his hatred towards his family, desire to have Casterly Rock and love for dragons, Daenerys seems like a jackpot for Tyrion. The only thing is that she will mistrust him. So, Tyrion here wonderfully present his plan of gaining Dany’s attention with utility and pragmatism. And he is generally right about it. He knows things Dany certainly doesn’t. He is far better equipped to prepare her with the challenges of Westeros than Jorah, Barristan or questionable allies like Victarion, Illyrio or someone else. But regardless of pragmatism here, we should always have in mind that Dany is also a human being. A person with emotions, deeply rooted opinions and some misconceptions and someone who has all the reason to reject Tyrion’s offer. Although I believe that Tyrion will serve her, this certainly won’t be a smooth ride. And we can definitely count on another “reason v emotion” dilemma in Dany.

This chapter also gave us glimpse of the situation among Dothraki, where is enhanced that Pono is the khal to worry about. More than that, we also see the web Illyrio waves around Daenerys and how it involves Griff’s company, especially with the talk about “wedding in Volantis”. But, as I said, the focus here is bringing two conflicted sides together. We see the desire and the way one side has in mind, but how Daenerys will react to Tyrion certainly is a question. All men must serve is a lesson Tyrion learned as a boy from Tywin’s cruelty, but the challenge is how to make yourself irreplaceable to make someone forget the bad blood. Daenerys certainly proved that she can put her emotions aside in dealings with people she dislike and mistrust, but we should never assume that changes of perspective, agendas and personalities won’t create a few bumps or irreconcilable differences even in “good guys” uniting.

Thank you for the analysis Mladen.

From your analysis I agree a lot on your interpretation of this quote.

Why would you support the cause of Queen Daenerys?”

“For gold and glory,” the dwarf said cheerfully. “Oh, and hate. If you had ever met my sister, you would understand.”

Tyrion has his own goals and as you stated is just using Dany as a ticket to his goals. This is very similar to how Xaro and Pyat Pree saw Dany, so I can see why Quaithe tells Dany not to trust him. He could still be useful for Dany just like Xaro and Pyat but considering he has his own goals he is unpredictable and could be a future threat if any of Dany's decisions interrupt with his end game.

I also like your contrast of the two gifts

Quaithe is very much her spiritual adviser. I agree with most everything here (though I think is also a small political motivation in that I think Quaithe is Sheira Seastar. Bran has his Great Bastard; Dany has hers--but mostly, it's magical). And yes, Quaithe is very interested in Dany and her dragons (something to tuck away until the final Dany POV)

That's what I think too, I made a crackpot on that some time ago.

Thanks for the write up Mladen :)

TYrion III

I very much agree with your analysis of this conversation, I would like to add that you can see how Illyrio views Dany as a tool or a weapon. An iron throne springboard if you will, not a dear loved one at all. With her it is all business business for Illyrio, he seems to have no sentiment for her. In the last Tyrion chapter he talks about how he wanted to break into her bedroom and how she is prettier than his first wife, but he also sent her to the Dothraki sea to die. So I think he sorts of likes her but is not attached to her at all. When he is talking about sending candies to fAegon he "sounded sad" . I take this to mean that he is sad he cannot go with them right now to see Aegon. He misses his son, he wants to be there when his son comes into his great (false) name and meets his intended bride and possibly, be married in Meereen. He is acting like a dad here, very different than how he acts towards Dany.

Yea I agree I think he is attracted to her beauty along the lines of lust but not attached to her like a friend or a family member.

[MoIaF]

Tyrion III

“All men must serve”

Nice review, thank you very much Mladen! :thumbsup:

“What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

“I shall treasure them always.” Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

(Daenerys II, A Game of Thrones)

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.”

Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …”

The difference in these gifts can be sensed through and through. While dragon eggs are far worthier than candid ginger and some robes, there is no doubt that the sentiments behind those gifts are completely different. Dany’s eggs were given as a present, a token of pretended loyalty, respect and care. In contrast, the way Illyrio sounds and behaves with those chests for Young Griff suggests all that was missed in those chapters in Game of thrones. I am firm believer that sentiments are not just powerful weapon but also an indicator of every plot there is in the Game, and Illyrio’s behavior talks a lot about YG and his identity.

I definitely agree that the intention behind the gifts is really telling. What is it that they say it's the little things that count". What Illyrio is sending to Young Griff is not extravagant but it's thoughtful, warm and caring. A gift for someone you know well and someone you think about. On the other hand Dany's gift is cold, calculating, and probably without emotion. The gift was given to make a show of it, to show how rich and important he is. He doesn't really care for Dany, he just wants to look good.

So I agree with Suzanna Stormborn , Tyrion will have to pick his words very carefully with Dany and not let his tongue get away from him (which has been known to happen) but he has a talent for that anyway. I've been wondering how the Harpy might be uncovered and it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion is the one who uncovers that plot and presents the evidence to Dany.

I think that's where he'll gain her alliance, I think at this point trust is too powerful of a word. It'll take her a while to truly trust him while he proves his usefulness. He would gain a lot of points with her if he could help her clean up the mess that is Meereen.

For reals???

Check out this thread. It is absolutely the truth of the matter IMO. He is the descendant of Aerion and the Blackfyres.

All the exiles brought together in one person.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104644-the-brightfyre-theory/

I've been a believer of this theory for a while. I think it makes the most sense based on the information we have.