Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part III: ASoS & ADwD

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't hate Dany but if I seem to grow bitter about her, that is because of the illogical whitewashing.

I think my time to leave this reread has come.

Good luck, have fun.

See this is what I do not get about the Dany-haters. ......Why do they feel it is their personal responsibility to circulate unwarranted accusations against her simply to counter the 'whitewashing' of Dany? Why does it bother people so much if fans like Dany and do not see so much fault with her? I am not in the Stan stan group, but I have no problem with him. I dont actively seek to knock him simply because I see others praising him. If he does something I legitimately dont like then I will speak out. But I have no desire to bash him based solely on trying to spoil the joy he brings others. Why is it so bad if people like Dany? Why does the act of people enjoying her and her story warrant irrational negative statements that are simply not true? Essentially why is the need to make people hate her so strong?

Here's my question. If Dany had not decided to wage war against slavery--had she heard about the way the Unsullied were made, about the kids being thrown to bears, about the absolute inhumanity that exists in Slaver's Bay--had she just taken her soldiers and continued to march westward...wouldn't THAT be a reason to be bitter towards/hate her more than her "irrational attack on slavery."

"Why didn't she try to free the slaves! She knows what it's like to be sold!"

"Why didn't she try to comfort those in chains! Motherhood is central to her!"

Is there any situation in which people who have grown tired/bitter/flat out hate Dany would be appeased? Either she's a woefully ignorant ruler who is on a fruitless campaign or in the alternative universe scenario, she's a cold hearted witch who let slavery continue so she can take back her throne with fire and blood.

I understand if people don't like Dany; we all have our favorites. There are some very popular characters that flat out baffle me with their popularity. But it seems like, for many, she just Can't. Do. Anything. Right. Does she make mistakes? Yup. She sees the world in black and white and has a tendency to shut out anything that might contradict her colorless worldview. 'Tis a fault. But I also think that Meereen is a HUGE learning experience for her.

Yes exactly. IMO it is ridiculous, it takes away from meaningful conversation and it side tracks would-be excellent literary discussions of (one of our) favorite series. We have to spend all our time sorting through the all the bullshit that is laid against her to even get to the reality of the books. And by the time we get to the reality everyone is angry from fighting over complete fabrications. It is such a waste of time!!

[Kyoshi]

Here's my question. If Dany had not decided to wage war against slavery--had she heard about the way the Unsullied were made, about the kids being thrown to bears, about the absolute inhumanity that exists in Slaver's Bay--had she just taken her soldiers and continued to march westward...wouldn't THAT be a reason to be bitter towards/hate her more than her "irrational attack on slavery."

"Why didn't she try to free the slaves! She knows what it's like to be sold!"

"Why didn't she try to comfort those in chains! Motherhood is central to her!"

Is there any situation in which people who have grown tired/bitter/flat out hate Dany would be appeased? Either she's a woefully ignorant ruler who is on a fruitless campaign or in the alternative universe scenario, she's a cold hearted witch who let slavery continue so she can take back her throne with fire and blood.

I understand if people don't like Dany; we all have our favorites. There are some very popular characters that flat out baffle me with their popularity. But it seems like, for many, she just Can't. Do. Anything. Right. Does she make mistakes? Yup. She sees the world in black and white and has a tendency to shut out anything that might contradict her colorless worldview. 'Tis a fault. But I also think that Meereen is a HUGE learning experience for her.

I think you should post this in every thread on the forum.

[SeanF]

Here's my question. If Dany had not decided to wage war against slavery--had she heard about the way the Unsullied were made, about the kids being thrown to bears, about the absolute inhumanity that exists in Slaver's Bay--had she just taken her soldiers and continued to march westward...wouldn't THAT be a reason to be bitter towards/hate her more than her "irrational attack on slavery."

"Why didn't she try to free the slaves! She knows what it's like to be sold!"

"Why didn't she try to comfort those in chains! Motherhood is central to her!"

Is there any situation in which people who have grown tired/bitter/flat out hate Dany would be appeased? Either she's a woefully ignorant ruler who is on a fruitless campaign or in the alternative universe scenario, she's a cold hearted witch who let slavery continue so she can take back her throne with fire and blood.

I understand if people don't like Dany; we all have our favorites. There are some very popular characters that flat out baffle me with their popularity. But it seems like, for many, she just Can't. Do. Anything. Right. Does she make mistakes? Yup. She sees the world in black and white and has a tendency to shut out anything that might contradict her colorless worldview. 'Tis a fault. But I also think that Meereen is a HUGE learning experience for her.

That touches on a discussion I had with another poster, who dislikes Dany.

She, and I think a lot of readers, like characters who are cold-blooded, strategic thinkers. So, the sort of character who thinks "slavery's bad, but realistically, there's nothing I can do about it" and sets about methodically planning the conquest of Westeros would gain a lot of respect from them. Dany's not a cold-blooded strategic thinker. The kind of character I'm talking about is one who'd see the Lhazareen village being sacked, shrug, and walk on.

Then there are the readers who like a good villain (who may also be a cold-blooded strategic thinker) and respect the kind of character who would turn the Unsullied onto the Good Masters, plunder the city, sell their women and children into slavery, and then march West, tricking her enemies, and burning and plundering along the way, preferably uttering some funny one-liners in the process. That type of character would see the Lhazareen village being sacked, and think "how can I profit from this?"

Hence, the popularity of characters like Varys, LF, and Roose Bolton.

I think Dany generates strong feelings, because she was written to be contentious. Someone who's kind and compassionate,but who can order horrible punishments for her enemies. Someone who's sharp-witted, but capable of making stupid mistakes. At the outset of the story, she's written very sympathetically, as Tyrion is. As the story progresses, so both characters reveal their flaws.

[Kyoshi]

^^That's rather disturbing.

[MoIaF]

The reason Queen Alysanne and I started this thread was not only because we wanted to re-read Dany’s chapters but also because we wanted to get a better understanding of who this characters is. Dany’s is very complex and doesn’t fit well into any of the established tropes. Thus, when someone tries to fit her into one of these tropes, it doesn’t work; she doesn’t quite fit. Within her lie many extremes and as we have been discussing she lacks nuance in her world views, far too often she sees the world in black and white.

She is a princess that has lived as a beggar, sold to the highest bitter as a bride, abused by her husband and brother; she has been lonely and friendless and has had the misfortune of having her family decimated not once but twice. On the other hand, she’s proud, entitled, somewhat arrogant, stubborn, mistrustful (with some reason), and temperamental.

She cares deeply for the people she feels responsible for::

“Enough.” Dany slapped the table. “No one will be left to die. You are all my people.” Her dreams of home and love had blinded her. “I will not abandon Meereen to the fate of Astapor. It grieves me to say so, but Westeros must wait.”

“You will be my khalasar,” she told them. “I see the faces of slaves. I free you. Take off your collars. Go if you wish, no one shall harm you. If you stay, it will be as brothers and sisters, husbands and wives.” The black eyes watched her, wary, expressionless. “I see the children, women, the wrinkled faces of the aged. I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old. To each of you I say, give me your hands and your hearts, and there will always be a place for you.”

Jhogo said they must leave her or bind her to her saddle, but Dany remembered a night on the Dothraki sea, when the Lysene girl had taught her secrets so that Drogo might love her more. She gave Doreah water from her own skin, cooled her brow with a damp cloth, and held her hand until she died, shivering. Only then would she permit the khalasar to press on.

Dany kissed him lightly on the cheek. It heartened her to see him smile. I must be strong for him as well, she thought grimly. A knight he may be, but I am the blood of the dragon.

She feels the need to protect those who can’t protect themselves because there was no one there for her and she wants to be there for someone else. She understands what’s it like to be lonely, fearful, and powerless.

Dany stroked the girl’s hair. “Say the word, my sweet, and I will send you from this awful place.

I will find a ship somehow and send you home. To Naath.”

“I would sooner stay with you. On Naath I’d be afraid. What if the slavers came again? I feel safe when I’m with you.”

Safe. The word made Dany’s eyes fill up with tears. “I want to keep you safe.” Missandei was only a child. With her, she felt as if she could be a child too. “No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys … I want to protect you but … it is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though. I am all they have. I am the queen … the … the …”

“… mother,” whispered Missandei.

“Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered.

“No. Mother to us all.”

And yes, as we have been discussing she can be cruel to her enemies and those she believes abuse and oppress others. She uses collective punishment both for her enemies and herself. She sees the world in black and white and thus doesn’t understand that the world and people (like her) can be much more complicated. Sadly, she also paints herself with these broad strokes, if she’s the mother of dragons she can’t be a mother to her children. I think much of this is due to her lack of education and a proper upbringing.

We can discuss Dany’s faults but we shouldn’t set aside her virtues. They go hand in hand, her virtues don’t negate her faults and her faults don’t negate her virtues. Funny enough even though Dany sees the world in black and white, she herself is gray.

See this is what I do not get about the Dany-haters. ......Why do they feel it is their personal responsibility to circulate unwarranted accusations against her simply to counter the 'whitewashing' of Dany? Why does it bother people so much if fans like Dany and do not see so much fault with her? I am not in the Stan stan group, but I have no problem with him. I dont actively seek to knock him simply because I see others praising him. If he does something I legitimately dont like then I will speak out. But I have no desire to bash him based solely on trying to spoil the joy he brings others. Why is it so bad if people like Dany? Why does the act of people enjoying her and her story warrant irrational negative statements that are simply not true? Essentially why is the need to make people hate her so strong?

:agree: The bolded part I will never understand.

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

:agree: :bowdown:

[Parwan]

Why are you participating in a re-read of character you clearly do not like? Aren't there enough threads in General forum to hate Daenerys.

And btw attempts were made to capture Drogon. A bunch of Dany's men got burned trying.

I think someone can legitimately participate in a re-read of a character he or she doesn't like. Haven't there been re-reads of Cersei POVs? I'm not sure about the matter, but such a project is definitely a worthy one. A Cersei re-read that limited participation to her admirers wouldn't have much participation. Now, I don't see why anyone would participate in a re-read of POVs of a character he or she finds boring. That's a different matter.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think someone can legitimately participate in a re-read of a character he or she doesn't like. Haven't there been re-reads of Cersei POVs? I'm not sure about the matter, but such a project is definitely a worthy one. A Cersei re-read that limited participation to her admirers wouldn't have much participation. Now, I don't see why anyone would participate in a re-read of POVs of a character he or she finds boring. That's a different matter.

If you are genuinely interested in the character then yes the re-read is for you, whether you love or hate the character. Participating in a re-read to make sure no other posters are too elated or happy with a character, even if it means falsifying the literature, is a weird waste of time.

[HexMachina]

I think as we are now into the territory of Dany beginning to rule in Meereen, we should briefly summarise and look back on her upbringing, as this will undoubtedly contribute to the way in which she rules.

Her father died before she was born, her mother died birthing her, and as a babe she was whisked away by a handful of loyal knights and her young brother to avoid death. For approximately 4-5 years she grew up in *relative* safety with Ser Willum Darry and her brother, presumably living a life of comfort. However, Ser Willum Darry died, and over the course of the next decade or so, she is dragged across the Free Cities with her half insane brother, fleeing threats (whether real or imagined) and gradually becoming more and more impoverished. During this time, her only source of education is her brother, who seems to have given her rudimentary stories of Targaryen grandeur, the wrongs done to her family during RR and the need to constantly fear attack. Eventually they are taken in by Illyrio, shortly after which she is sold to a Dothraki khal to be his bride. The rest, of course, is discussed more thoroughly in these threads.

Now, taking a look at this, we see that compared to others in the series who claim or seek to claim power, she has very little knowledge/education of ruling. In addition, all she knows of her own history comes from a highly biased source. She does have a lot of life expeeience, particularly as a Victim, and this is likely why she is so compassionate to the slaves etc who are oppressed. I believe that her lack of typical "teaching" and observations of ruling (e.g. The Stark children seeing Lord Eddard ruling) account for her black/white view and the errors she will make in Meereen. For example, her own experience as the Victim leads her to immediately sympathise with the oppressed and view the Slavers as bad and the slaves as good.

This of course, presents the argument that if she knows nothing of ruling, she has no business being a Queen.

(I will have to continue this train of thought later, apologies)

[SeanF]

I think as we are now into the territory of Dany beginning to rule in Meereen, we should briefly summarise and look back on her upbringing, as this will undoubtedly contribute to the way in which she rules.

Her father died before she was born, her mother died birthing her, and as a babe she was whisked away by a handful of loyal knights and her young brother to avoid death. For approximately 4-5 years she grew up in *relative* safety with Ser Willum Darry and her brother, presumably living a life of comfort. However, Ser Willum Darry died, and over the course of the next decade or so, she is dragged across the Free Cities with her half insane brother, fleeing threats (whether real or imagined) and gradually becoming more and more impoverished. During this time, her only source of education is her brother, who seems to have given her rudimentary stories of Targaryen grandeur, the wrongs done to her family during RR and the need to constantly fear attack. Eventually they are taken in by Illyrio, shortly after which she is sold to a Dothraki khal to be his bride. The rest, of course, is discussed more thoroughly in these threads.

(I will have to continue this train of thought later, apologies)

If GRRM ever writes any other stories in his universe, I'd love to read more about her back-story. Not only does her brother give her a very twisted view of the world, he threatens her, beats her, tells her she's a "whore" and "slut", and possibly molests her as well. It was a wonder that she emerged from all that as well as she did.

[BearQueen87]

This of course, presents the argument that if she knows nothing of ruling, she has no business being a Queen.

(I will have to continue this train of thought later, apologies)

And, honestly, I can see both sides of this argument.

On the one hand, as a leader, you should take it upon yourself to learn as much as possible about the people you are ruling, and the various viewpoints on how to be a good ruler. Claiming ignorance will only get you so far, especially when you have someone in the know (Barristan) who is willing to instruct. If she continues to ignore the history and reality of the past, then the criticisms against her hold quite a bit of water. Barristan is too "white knight" to say, "no. Dany, you need to HEAR this." Tyrion...well, the Imp might be able to speak some harsh truths that she can't shut out.

On the other hand, let's think about what she would be learning. Viserys held the Targaryen's as the epitome of dynastic ruling. "Westeros is ours, and Baratheons/Starks/Lannisters took it from us! But it was ours and it shall be again because we are the dragons." That's the identity that Viserys carved out for Dany. Her brother told her who she was and who they were. And now she's confronted with the dissolution of that identity. How many of us would be willing to have our entire life story torn down? Dany is incredibly human. Of course she's scared to hear what Barristan has to say. Her father was really and truly mad and the Baratheons/Starks/Lannisters had some reasonable reasons for trying to end the dynasty. How do you cope with that? How do you cope with the contradiction that your father was mad, your eldest brother was good, the Baratheon's took down their lawful king, but they had justifiable reason to do so? Despite being a walking contradiction as MoIaF points out above, Dany doesn't like to exist in contradictions. The world is clear cut because to acknowledge that it's not so simple is a destruction of the identity she's trying to hold on to. Am I a dragon or a harpy? Am I Queen or a woman? Am I Daenerys Stormborn of House Targareyn, The Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, and Rightful Ruler of the 7 Kingdoms...or am I Dany, and all I want is a house with a red door and to feel safe and loved. Good lord, I think I'd run from any other contradictions myself!

[Mladen]

Since we have dwelt a little bit on meta level of Dany analysis, if you would allow me to give couple of thoughts on the matter. For far too long, we needed a thread dedicated to Daenerys with the right approach and without vitriol that usually accompanies thread dedicated to her. And I do believe that we needed a positive approach to Dany. But my biggest issue is that the reread threads are not and should not be the closeted society of certain group. Whether it is proclamation that "this thread is going down" or questioning people why they are here, I think that this entire team can easily deal with any unwanted bashing of the characters you like. I simply do not believe, nor do I want to, that such intelligent and well-read readers as MOIAF, Queen Alysanne, Patrick, Annara, TMO, Parwan can't deal with bad arguments and hatred... Especially since this is entire team of people dealing with this.

Now, I am not Dany fan. There is only one character which people can call me fan for. I have rather neutral approach to Daenerys, with rather strict opposition to some whitewashing (crucifying those 163 people wasn't a good thing, no matter what) and same approach to some hate posts (IMO, Dany isn't Aerys 2.0, she is not the worst possible leader etc, etc). I do believe that there were some mad and some great Targaryens. Thus, I do believe that even though this thread is organized by Dany fans, there is a space for my neutral approach, even with some bumps. That is truly for every praise, and something we should appreciate... So, to all of you, dealing with hatred, especially bad hate arguments, can be easily done with text proofs and solid case against whatever accusation comes from those posts.

And moving on to Dany's leading skills. I am closest to MOIAF's approach to Dany's greatest mistake being looking at things in black/white mode. I recommend everyone to read bumps' thread about Dany's reading skills and her being catalyst to historical change, but someone who has problems in long-term peaceful reign. I generally see Dany as someone who will shake things Westeros in rather similar way to what she has done to Slaver's Bay. I doubt it will be systemic changes, but the status quo will be gone. Just as Aegon the Conqueror reshaped Westeros, I see Dany doing the same. But at the same time, I can't see Dany as the flawless leader, just as I can't see anyone. Actually, I don't buy the whole "ideal leader" thing. I think that Dany's gender plays a significant role in defining her as the leader. The Mhysa, Mother of dragons, Daenerys is giving birth to the new systems, new orders. Unlike all the Kings in Westeros who are upholding to already existent state, Dany changes things. And that is the principal role I think we'll see Dany in. The breaker of Reader's wheel of history.

And her being the "breaker of wheel of history" perhaps does entail the black/white POV. Perhaps the view she has no world is the best for shaking things up. And as much as that view is wrong, in a way, one can argue that history can only be changed if someone put an end to a certain thing and change it from the core. The ability of the great leaders is to transform the greatest weaknesses into a strength. Dany proved she can do that, even though sometimes she did make many mistakes.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think Dany generates strong feelings, because she was written to be contentious. Someone who's kind and compassionate,but who can order horrible punishments for her enemies. Someone who's sharp-witted, but capable of making stupid mistakes. At the outset of the story, she's written very sympathetically, as Tyrion is. As the story progresses, so both characters reveal their flaws.

So, she's very human. :dunno:

[BearQueen87]

And moving on to Dany's leading skills. I am closest to MOIAF's approach to Dany's greatest mistake being looking at things in black/white mode. I recommend everyone to read bumps' thread about Dany's reading skills and her being catalyst to historical change, but someone who has problems in long-term peaceful reign. I generally see Dany as someone who will shake things Westeros in rather similar way to what she has done to Slaver's Bay. I doubt it will be systemic changes, but the status quo will be gone. Just as Aegon the Conqueror reshaped Westeros, I see Dany doing the same. But at the same time, I can't see Dany as the flawless leader, just as I can't see anyone. Actually, I don't buy the whole "ideal leader" thing. I think that Dany's gender plays a significant role in defining her as the leader. The Mhysa, Mother of dragons, Daenerys is giving birth to the new systems, new orders. Unlike all the Kings in Westeros who are upholding to already existent state, Dany changes things. And that is the principal role I think we'll see Dany in. The breaker of Reader's wheel of history.

And her being the "breaker of wheel of history" perhaps does entail the black/white POV. Perhaps the view she has no world is the best for shaking things up. And as much as that view is wrong, in a way, one can argue that history can only be changed if someone put an end to a certain thing and change it from the core. The ability of the great leaders is to transform the greatest weaknesses into a strength. Dany proved she can do that, even though sometimes she did make many mistakes.

For me, Dany's ultimate destiny is magical, not political. She might help shape (or shake up, I like that) Westeros for the new era that it's about to find itself in post-Other-Battle, but I don't think she plays a role past that. This is not to say that she dies! (Please GRRM. PLEASE). Rather, that the more important reason for her and her dragons isn't to conquer Westeros, but to go North and defeat the Others and whatever they want. Now, whether she decides to bend the knee to Jon (if R+L = Legit J) or she just decides that ruling isn't in her and she wants the house with the red door, I don't think she'll sit on any throne in the end, and I'm not sure if she'll even stay in Westeros.

So, she's very human. :dunno:

That's how I've always seen her.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree that crucifying 163 children was a bad thing no matter what. And I am getting really tired of the term "whitewashing". It is annoying and used far too frequently to cover a very broad range. Is this term only used when someone disagrees with anothers thoughts on Dany, or when anyone disagrees in general? If I dont condemn a character for what I believe to be one of her shining moments then am I whitewashing, or do I simply have a different opinion than others? Could I adversely say that posters are blackwashing Dany if they disagree with me? Would that be redundant if I said it every time someone disagrees with me?

[Mladen]

For me, Dany's ultimate destiny is magical, not political. She might help shape (or shake up, I like that) Westeros for the new era that it's about to find itself in post-Other-Battle, but I don't think she plays a role past that. This is not to say that she dies! (Please GRRM. PLEASE). Rather, that the more important reason for her and her dragons isn't to conquer Westeros, but to go North and defeat the Others and whatever they want. Now, whether she decides to bend the knee to Jon (if R+L = Legit J) or she just decides that ruling isn't in her and she wants the house with the red door, I don't think she'll sit on any throne in the end, and I'm not sure if she'll even stay in Westeros.

I don't think there is two plains: mythological and political existing independently. Undoubtedly, they influence each other and no character can be involved in only one aspect, even those who on the first sight belong to only one of those like BR or Varys. The upcoming Dance is political fight and there is no doubt she will be part of it. In what way ot how she will fight the Others, I have no idea but I imagine it might have some.

[Mladen]

I agree that crucifying 163 children was a bad thing no matter what. And I am getting really tired of the term "whitewashing". It is annoying and used far too frequently to cover a very broad range. Is this term only used when someone disagrees with anothers thoughts on Dany, or when anyone disagrees in general? If I dont condemn a character for what I believe to be one of her shining moments then am I whitewashing, or do I simply have a different opinion than others? Could I adversely say that posters are blackwashing Dany if they disagree with me? Would that be redundant if I said it every time someone disagrees with me?

Suzanna, we can all dig holes in the ground and create these strawman arguments thus blocking the thread and not allowing it to carry its mission. Or we can all move on. And deal with silly positions fron whatever side they come from, with text proofs. It's the choice ahead of us. I think that this thread has enough of collective intellect to deal with troll hatred

[BearQueen87]

I don't think there is two plains: mythological and political existing independently. Undoubtedly, they influence each other and no character can be involved in only one aspect, even those who on the first sight belong to only one of those like BR or Varys. The upcoming Dance is political fight and there is no doubt she will be part of it. In what way ot how she will fight the Others, I have no idea but I imagine it might have some.

I guess I mean that Dany's lasting contribution to Westeros won't be sitting on the throne as Queen Daenerys, ruling all. Her role in the upcoming DoD 2.0 is of course political, but I also don't think her winning that battle (cause I think she will) will last very long. I imagine that she and fAegon have their dance, she wins, takes the Iron Throne, only for a raven to reach the Red Keep and announce that the Wall has fallen, or something like (GRRM will write it much better than what I just described...).

As for fighting the Others...dragons. At least one that she is bonded with and can ride. I just can't image that a fire-breathing dragon isn't going to come in handy when fighting creatures made of ice. ;)

[Mladen]

I guess I mean that Dany's lasting contribution to Westeros won't be sitting on the throne as Queen Daenerys, ruling all. Her role in the upcoming DoD 2.0 is of course political, but I also don't think her winning that battle (cause I think she will) will last very long. I imagine that she and fAegon have their dance, she wins, takes the Iron Throne, only for a raven to reach the Red Keep and announce that the Wall has fallen, or something like (GRRM will write it much better than what I just described...).

As for fighting the Others...dragons. At least one that she is bonded with and can ride. I just can't image that a fire-breathing dragon isn't going to come in handy when fighting creatures made of ice. ;)

We will see. I agree that she is not likely to sit on Throne, but I wouldn't discard the possibility. Regarding dragons, as I said, I have no idea how War for dawn will go on. All and all, I am not good in predicting the end game for various characters, but there is no doubt that Dany is one of the axes of ASOIAF

[PatrickStormborn]

While Dany is giving vent to her wroth and speaking utter BS about collective punishment, she remembers Hazzea and suddenly realizes how ridiculous she is sounding. That is why she cannot finish her last sentence. She is well aware that Rhaegal and Viserion are punished because of something they did not do. Unless she understands the necessity to distinguish the guilty from the innocent, what she does is hypocrisy in my dictionary.

I thought she was thinking more about how she's just as responsible for the death of Hazzea as Drogon is, with the comparison being that she is the equivalent of the usurper and the dragons are her "dogs". But that'll be more relevant to discuss when we reach the next chapter.

That touches on a discussion I had with another poster, who dislikes Dany.

She, and I think a lot of readers, like characters who are cold-blooded, strategic thinkers. So, the sort of character who thinks "slavery's bad, but realistically, there's nothing I can do about it" and sets about methodically planning the conquest of Westeros would gain a lot of respect from them. Dany's not a cold-blooded strategic thinker. The kind of character I'm talking about is one who'd see the Lhazareen village being sacked, shrug, and walk on.

Then there are the readers who like a good villain (who may also be a cold-blooded strategic thinker) and respect the kind of character who would turn the Unsullied onto the Good Masters, plunder the city, sell their women and children into slavery, and then march West, tricking her enemies, and burning and plundering along the way, preferably uttering some funny one-liners in the process. That type of character would see the Lhazareen village being sacked, and think "how can I profit from this?"

Hence, the popularity of characters like Varys, LF, and Roose Bolton.

I think Dany generates strong feelings, because she was written to be contentious. Someone who's kind and compassionate,but who can order horrible punishments for her enemies. Someone who's sharp-witted, but capable of making stupid mistakes. At the outset of the story, she's written very sympathetically, as Tyrion is. As the story progresses, so both characters reveal their flaws.

This is a really great post, and I think it covers most of the problem here.

If Dany had conquered Astapor and moved on, getting bribes from Yunkai and then Meereen (I expect they would have just paid her off had she not rejected the Yunkai'i but spared their city - she looked antagonistic but not ruthless), most people would probably like her more than they do now.

It kind of comes back to Dany being the complete symbol of "fire". She doesn't order cruel actions because she's cold and calculating, she does it because she's so passionate.