Theory about Tyrion's parents

[LemonyLemonyLemonCakes]

I just want to start off by saying that this is in no way the most irrefutable theory about this subject, and there is not much evidence; it's mostly based around several parallels and coincidences I noticed. It's probably more likely that GRRM just took influence from the mythology.

So I was thinking about the legend of the Labyrinth of Knossos, and I realized that Tyrion's name is extremely similar to Asterion's (Asterion being the Minotaur, a monster born to a king). Already, there are several parallels: the similar names, the manner of their birth (Asterion's father was the king of Crete, Tyrion's was the lord of Casterly Rock), and the fact that they are both deformed. But then it gets more interesting.

In the original legend, Minos (the king of Crete) prayed to Poseidon for a white bull as a sign of support. He was supposed to sacrifice it to Poseidon, but chose to keep it instead. This angered Aphrodite, who forced Minos' wife Pasiphae to fall in love with the bull. She and the bull did the do, and out pops Asterion, the Minotaur, the half-man (half-bull).

Now we all know who the white bull is in ASoIaF . . .

Gerold Hightower, the White Bull of the Kingsguard.

So here's my theory: Tywin Lannister parallels Minos of Crete, and his wife Joanna parallels Pasiphae. Gerold Hightower parallels the Cretan Bull. Somehow, Joanna Lannister and Gerold Hightower got it on, and out popped Tyrion (the half-man), who is paralled by Asterion (the half-man).

Now, the gods in Tywin's case are open to interpretation; if they are literally "the gods," then they could have been acting out of karma, punishing Tywin for his brutality by cursing him with an unfaithful wife and a monstrous son. Another possibility is that the gods represent the king; perhaps Aerys was angry with Tywin and set the whole thing up, whether or not Gerold's relations with Joanna were consensual or not (this is far-fetched, I know).

This also fits into the whole "Tyrion is a bastard" theory, and would explain why Tywin hates him so much, especially if he was born out of rape. It would also add some more explanation to Tywin's hatred of the Kingsguard, and his reluctance for Jaime to join, as well as providing subtext as to why Tywin resigned. Some quotes:

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." - Tywin.

"All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." - Tyrion

This could possibly also give Tyrion some significant claim to Oldtown, which would gain him immense power if he were to ever inherit Casterly Rock as well.

Thoughts?

[kiasyd]

I just want to start off by saying that this is in no way the most irrefutable theory about this subject, and there is not much evidence; it's mostly based around several parallels and coincidences I noticed. It's probably more likely that GRRM just took influence from the mythology.

So I was thinking about the legend of the Labyrinth of Knossos, and I realized that Tyrion's name is extremely similar to Asterion's (Asterion being the Minotaur, a monster born to a king). Already, there are several parallels: the similar names, the manner of their birth (Asterion's father was the king of Crete, Tyrion's was the lord of Casterly Rock), and the fact that they are both deformed. But then it gets more interesting.

In the original legend, Minos (the king of Crete) prayed to Poseidon for a white bull as a sign of support. He was supposed to sacrifice it to Poseidon, but chose to keep it instead. This angered Aphrodite, who forced Minos' wife Pasiphae to fall in love with the bull. She and the bull did the do, and out pops Asterion, the Minotaur, the half-man (half-bull).

Now we all know who the white bull is in ASoIaF . . .

Gerold Hightower, the White Bull of the Kingsguard.

So here's my theory: Tywin Lannister parallels Minos of Crete, and his wife Joanna parallels Pasiphae. Gerold Hightower parallels the Cretan Bull. Somehow, Joanna Lannister and Gerold Hightower got it on, and out popped Tyrion (the half-man), who is paralled by Asterion (the half-man).

Now, the gods in Tywin's case are open to interpretation; if they are literally "the gods," then they could have been acting out of karma, punishing Tywin for his brutality by cursing him with an unfaithful wife and a monstrous son. Another possibility is that the gods represent the king; perhaps Aerys was angry with Tywin and set the whole thing up, whether or not Gerold's relations with Joanna were consensual or not (this is far-fetched, I know).

This also fits into the whole "Tyrion is a bastard" theory, and would explain why Tywin hates him so much, especially if he was born out of rape. It would also add some more explanation to Tywin's hatred of the Kingsguard, and his reluctance for Jaime to join. Some quotes:

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." - Tywin.

"All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." - Tyrion

This could possibly also give Tyrion some significant claim to Oldtown, which would gain him immense power if he were to ever inherit Casterly Rock as well.

Thoughts?

Usually I'm not very fond of Tyrion-bastard theories, even recognising the strong clues that seems to foreshadow such thing - mainly because it would change the dynamic of his relationship with Tywin, I guess... That being said, I think your parallel with the minotaur is great, and you may be onto something! One of the ironies of such theory is that a dwarf would actually be a "high-tower" :laugh:

Anyway, it's been some time since I read this particular myth, so maybe I will catch up with it tomorrow and see if I can pinpoint other similarities.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

This is pretty cool.

I don't believe Tywin knew that Tyrion wasn't his. He just hoped he wasn't. If he'd had proof he would have arranged for Tyrion to have a tragic accident or quietly disappear.

Joanna seeking the company of the White Bull is possible. Tywin would be way more worried about Aerys and wouldn't see it coming.

On the other hand...Lewyn Martell had a paramour. The one Arianne knows about is still living, but who's to say he didn't have more than one, or maybe had a fling with Joanna before moving on to his long-term love? Or the one still alive could have been the cover. The Martells have black eyes, don't they? Tyrion's are one green (obviously Lannister) and one black. I may have the timeline off. Was Lewyn still alive when Tyrion would have been concieved?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Very crackpot. But I like it :D

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I just want to start off by saying that this is in no way the most irrefutable theory about this subject, and there is not much evidence; it's mostly based around several parallels and coincidences I noticed. It's probably more likely that GRRM just took influence from the mythology.

So I was thinking about the legend of the Labyrinth of Knossos, and I realized that Tyrion's name is extremely similar to Asterion's (Asterion being the Minotaur, a monster born to a king). Already, there are several parallels: the similar names, the manner of their birth (Asterion's father was the king of Crete, Tyrion's was the lord of Casterly Rock), and the fact that they are both deformed. But then it gets more interesting.

In the original legend, Minos (the king of Crete) prayed to Poseidon for a white bull as a sign of support. He was supposed to sacrifice it to Poseidon, but chose to keep it instead. This angered Aphrodite, who forced Minos' wife Pasiphae to fall in love with the bull. She and the bull did the do, and out pops Asterion, the Minotaur, the half-man (half-bull).

Now we all know who the white bull is in ASoIaF . . .

Gerold Hightower, the White Bull of the Kingsguard.

So here's my theory: Tywin Lannister parallels Minos of Crete, and his wife Joanna parallels Pasiphae. Gerold Hightower parallels the Cretan Bull. Somehow, Joanna Lannister and Gerold Hightower got it on, and out popped Tyrion (the half-man), who is paralled by Asterion (the half-man).

Now, the gods in Tywin's case are open to interpretation; if they are literally "the gods," then they could have been acting out of karma, punishing Tywin for his brutality by cursing him with an unfaithful wife and a monstrous son. Another possibility is that the gods represent the king; perhaps Aerys was angry with Tywin and set the whole thing up, whether or not Gerold's relations with Joanna were consensual or not (this is far-fetched, I know).

This also fits into the whole "Tyrion is a bastard" theory, and would explain why Tywin hates him so much, especially if he was born out of rape. It would also add some more explanation to Tywin's hatred of the Kingsguard, and his reluctance for Jaime to join, as well as providing subtext as to why Tywin resigned. Some quotes:

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." - Tywin.

"All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." - Tyrion

This could possibly also give Tyrion some significant claim to Oldtown, which would gain him immense power if he were to ever inherit Casterly Rock as well.

Thoughts?

You are on the right track.

[mb2518]

If any of the Lannisters were fathered by Aerys, it was Cersei and Jaime. Tyrion shares the same passion for whoring Tywin and Tytos did. Yet, I doubt getting turned on by wildfire is something Tywin passed down to Cersei.

[King Tyrion I]

Interesting theory.

Although I wouldn't take Tyrion's take on dwarves and bastards that serious in this.

Children suffering from archondroplasia *and* "killing" their mothers in childbirth don't happen that often. Even in modern times although I don't have the actual rate handy ATM.

[Lord Lannister]

Tyrion's had several of what could be described as dragon dreams. He told Jon Snow he used to dream of dragons in AGoT, repeatedly said he can't sleep unless he drinks himself out because of his dreams as well. It was laid on real thick on A Dance with Dragons almost every one of his POV's mentions his dreams.. Aerys Targaryen has so many faults, so raping Joanna Lannister wouldn't seem out of character. If this was the case, Tywin certainly didn't know or he would've disowned Tyrion in a heartbeat. Even if Tyrion was the bastard son of Aerys, I'm not sure how he or the readers would ever find out. Both the key witnesses would seem to be dead.

[Lord Ross]

I was expecting a crackpot A+J=T thread.

This however is an interesting possibility. Thank-you

Although I believe that Tyrion's arc works better if Tywin is his real father.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I think your idea is correct and I have expanded and developed your theory---> here.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

A+J=T

Tyrions parents are Aerys and Joanna.

Nope Gerald all the way. GRRM is leading you to the obvious, the hints are not subtle at all and the results less than climatic.

[Mithras]

I think Joanna loved Tywin.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I think Joanna loved Tywin.

Maybe but I just have a hard time imagining anyone loving Tywin.

[Mithras]

Maybe but I just have a hard time imagining anyone loving Tywin.

Genna has a fondness of him too, as a caring and protecting big brother. Kevan genuinely loved the man.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Genna has a fondness of him too, as a caring and protecting big brother. Kevan genuinely loved the man.

Aye carrumba you are right! :bowdown: I still think he is a "hard man to love". Ive got that song in my head now.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

This twist would appear to be completely pointless from a narrative POV. I mean, how would the story be better if Tyrion's father is a random KG knight who's not of particular importance to the story? In fact, the story would be much much worse, even worse than A+J=T.

Theories based solely on foreshadowing is just dumb. For instance, think about Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head. Pretty clear foreshadowing for Jon beheading him, right? Well, no, because Jon originally hanged Janos.

Also, explain the famous "Tywin named Tyrion" SSM. If there was a legitimate mystery about Tyrion's birth, GRRM would have said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by Rhaella, and Tyrion by Tywin.' Instead, he said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by her mother and Tyrion by her father', implying R+L=J and nothing else.

AND there is no evidence that GRRM was influenced by this particular myth. And even with cases of clear influence (Tywin was based on Edward Longshanks, for instance) there are often major differences between the inspiration and GRRM. For instance, Edward was devoutly religious, unlike Tywin. Empress Matilda was not fed to a dragon. Valyria did not have an emperor. Yi Ti is not an absolute monarchy. And many others.

[Mithras]

Aye carrumba you are right! :bowdown: I still think he is a "hard man to love". Ive got that song in my head now.

Agreed.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If any of the Lannisters were fathered by Aerys, it was Cersei and Jaime. Tyrion shares the same passion for whoring Tywin and Tytos did. Yet, I doubt getting turned on by wildfire is something Tywin passed down to Cersei.

Aerys was turned on by violence. He was fascinated with wildfire. Not the same thing. Plus that's probably not genetic.