jons resurection and "salt and smoke"

[Disputatious]

Has he? IIRC awoiaf says he died.

Reborn can mean a lot of things.. one thing that it doesn´t mean is to be killed.

Just after ADWD came out, our author responded to an interviewer's question about his having killed off Jon Snow, thusly "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?". Not a definitive statement that Jon is still alive, but certainly a clear admonition not to assume that Jon must be dead. What is the quote from AWoIaF? What does it actually say and how many weasel words are there in what it does say. :)

[Lady Flandrensis]

Or, or, What Is he, pancetta?

He's bacon! Bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon!

[Nictarion]

Wrt Marsh needing proof of Jon's death all he would have to do it cut off his head and burn the body.

[Disputatious]

IF Jon is AA and IF he is "reborn" somehow I see it going down like this.

Jon is shanked and dies. His corpse is taken beneath the wall and preserved in the ice at Melisandres command so he doesn't rot while she tries to revive him.

The best place to preserve a corpse, which is really just meat when you get right down to it, is where they keep there preserved meat stores.

So Jon is revived in a room full of smoked hams and salt beef.

"Born amidst smoke(d hams) and salt (beef)."

I suppose that might tickle our author's funny bone. None the less, this is a prophecy of events on a grand scale: I for my part will not accept events on a small scale in fulfillment thereof without explicit and emphatic affirmation from Martin. A few tears and some blood on the Dallas Cowboy's insignia ain't gonna cut it for me unless GRRM says so loudly and often.

The alternative, after all, is smoke from Dragonmont and the salt of the sea around Dragonstone, for Dany's birth and the smoke of the pyre and the salt in the sweat covering Dany as she walks towards the pyre, under a bleeding star and with the dragons about to wake. Because, as you see, there is more than one way to get salt into this event, and the salt of her sweat surrounds her as does the smoke of the burning pyre. And thus we have it, Daenerys herself amidst salt and smoke. And at the end of it, she is now a dragon metaphorical with three dragons literal.

She can make it five by waking Jon from stone. Remember Samwell's question to Aemon about when Jon's heart became stone. Aemon replied that it happened when Jon was raised lord commander. Well, you say, it will be Val or maybe even Melisandre who will wake him from that condition, but I think it will take Dany to do this (or is someone out there prepared to affirm Val or Melisandre as AAR?).

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Just after ADWD came out, our author responded to an interviewer's question about his having killed off Jon Snow, thusly "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?". Not a definitive statement that Jon is still alive, but certainly a clear admonition not to assume that Jon must be dead. What is the quote from AWoIaF? What does it actually say and how many weasel words are there in what it does say. :)

I always took that quote as GRRM hinting Jon´s arc isn´t over.. as if to say he might not be permanently dead.

You should ask someone with the App. I only recall someone saying in his entry it is said he died in Castle black.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20xobl/spoilers_all_jon_snows_page_was_recently_updated/

[sj4iy]

Wrt Marsh needing proof of Jon's death all he would have to do it cut off his head and burn the body.

Why would he cut off Jon's head? This isn't a vampire story.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Why would he cut off Jon's head? This isn't a vampire story.

Roose might disagree

[Disputatious]

Why would he cut off Jon's head? This isn't a vampire story.

But if it is, we need a stake, and preferably one of silver. Perhaps the Manderlys will oblige---not for Jon, but for Roose and Ramsey.

[sj4iy]

But if it is, we need a stake, and preferably one of silver. Perhaps the Manderlys will oblige---not for Jon, but for Roose and Ramsey.

I guess we'd have to find someone other than Melisandre to provide holy water as her methods would probably just evaporate it all.

[Disputatious]

I always took that quote as GRRM hinting Jon´s arc isn´t over.. as if to say he might not be permanently dead.

You should ask someone with the App. I only recall someone saying in his entry it is said he died in Castle black.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20xobl/spoilers_all_jon_snows_page_was_recently_updated/

Hm... So it is from the app, not the World Book, and something lately added. With GRRM's approval and assent to the proposition?

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Hey guys and gals, we all over looked something:

He could be reborn while the reader sips a margarita and hits a fatty.......just sayin........

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Hm... So it is from the app, not the World Book, and something lately added. With GRRM's approval and assent to the proposition?

:dunno:

im under the impression that the App is cannon..

[tydides]

I've heard this from my friend about a year ago. Not sure if he got it from here or not. Good on you for thinking it through yourself though. I usually don't read the books to speculate, so i'm pretty happy about places like this.

[Nictarion]

Why would he cut off Jon's head? This isn't a vampire story.

Maybe because people are coming back to life as ice zombies. If burning is out because they need proof Jon is dead, cutting off his head to keep for proof and burning the body would make the most sense.

[butterbumps!]

And i agree that means a sharp change in personality. I just don´t think the parallel should be Lady Stoneheart. UnJon might not be a revenge seeking zombie.

there might be other options.

Otherwise, what´s the point in the conecept of the Second life, if not to apply in Jon´s case?

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that if resurrected, Jon would possess all of Stoneheart's characteristics. Stoneheart is an exaggerated trace of Cat's persona, and that's why she takes the form she does. Jon's not Cat, so he'd have different features than Stoneheart does, but what would be consistent is that he becomes an exaggerated trace of what he once was. Like a shadow-Jon.

There are a ton of other options. Most notably, that Jon isn't really dead.

About the second life, this is kind of what gets me. A lot of readers appeal to the Varamyr prologue to say that if Jon wasn't resurrected, then that prologue was pointless. But the prologue isn't only about a second life; we learn a lot about the mechanics of warging, we learn that Varamyr's power as a warg made him essentially a king among his people, and we learn rules of warging, all of which applies to all of the Starks.

And on the second life in particular, it shows us the opposite of what seems to be a popular takeaway. That is, it shows us that a person can live in an animal once the body dies, but that further skinchanging is impossible, and that going back into your human body won't happen. So it's showing us that a warg can extend their life by occupying an animal, but that this is the end of the road.

I know, I know: "this means that Jon can preserve his mind in Ghost, and Mel can resurrect his body, and he can come back unchanged." But let's go back to the main issue here, which is that Martin says he disagrees with resurrections that do not fundamentally change the person. Martin doesn't agree with resurrections that don't fundamentally change a person. So this "warg into ghost and then be resurrected in tact" loophole isn't something Martin agrees with on a conceptual level according to his SSM. Martin wouldn't design a loophole in his own logic to allow Jon to be resurrected in tact given that he's firmly against resurrections where the person is unchanged.

If Martin wants Jon to continue being part of the story, the easiest solution is that he'll write it such that Jon's not actually dead.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

What is he a ham?

Don't tell the Manderlys!

[Talking Hodor]

I'm thinking they will be burning his body and he'll rise up amid the flames, reborn.

Agreed.

Some are saying 'reborn' amid salt and smoke. Isn't it just 'born'? I'm not sure about the circumstances of Jon's birth, but perhaps there was some salt and smoke there.

[RumHam]

Agreed.

Some are saying 'reborn' amid salt and smoke. Isn't it just 'born'? I'm not sure about the circumstances of Jon's birth, but perhaps there was some salt and smoke there.

Yeah. Azor Ahai is being reborn as the character in question. The character should just be born.

[sj4iy]

Agreed.

Some are saying 'reborn' amid salt and smoke. Isn't it just 'born'? I'm not sure about the circumstances of Jon's birth, but perhaps there was some salt and smoke there.

Yeah, I would almost bet money that his birth fulfilled the prophecy. We know that a 'star' bleeds (Arthur Dayne's death) and probably salt (someone crying), so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that he also had the other parts of the prophecy, as well.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that if resurrected, Jon would possess all of Stoneheart's characteristics. Stoneheart is an exaggerated trace of Cat's persona, and that's why she takes the form she does. Jon's not Cat, so he'd have different features than Stoneheart does, but what would be consistent is that he becomes an exaggerated trace of what he once was. Like a shadow-Jon.

There are a ton of other options. Most notably, that Jon isn't really dead.

About the second life, this is kind of what gets me. A lot of readers appeal to the Varamyr prologue to say that if Jon wasn't resurrected, then that prologue was pointless. But the prologue isn't only about a second life; we learn a lot about the mechanics of warging, we learn that Varamyr's power as a warg made him essentially a king among his people, and we learn rules of warging, all of which applies to all of the Starks.

And on the second life in particular, it shows us the opposite of what seems to be a popular takeaway. That is, it shows us that a person can live in an animal once the body dies, but that further skinchanging is impossible, and that going back into your human body won't happen. So it's showing us that a warg can extend their life by occupying an animal, but that this is the end of the road.

I know, I know: "this means that Jon can preserve his mind in Ghost, and Mel can resurrect his body, and he can come back unchanged." But let's go back to the main issue here, which is that Martin says he disagrees with resurrections that do not fundamentally change the person. Martin doesn't agree with resurrections that don't fundamentally change a person. So this "warg into ghost and then be resurrected in tact" loophole isn't something Martin agrees with on a conceptual level according to his SSM. Martin wouldn't design a loophole in his own logic to allow Jon to be resurrected in tact given that he's firmly against resurrections where the person is unchanged.

If Martin wants Jon to continue being part of the story, the easiest solution is that he'll write it such that Jon's not actually dead.

1) ok i just misread the killing innocents comment.

2) indeed, lots of topics introduced in the prologue. Certainly the second life is the huge on though.

3) Indeded, GRRM needs to fundamentally change the person. So, he introduces the Second Life and it´s effect on personality (the mixing of Jon and Ghost). So Jon can indeed resurrect and comply with GRRM requierments on resurrection. He won´t have his personality intact.

Also his arc is full of aditional clues on what that personality change can be. "kill the boy and let the man be born". "wake dragons out of stone"