jons resurection and "salt and smoke"

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Jon dying and returning isn't what will set him free of his vows, it's when the wall comes down that he'll be free.

[RumHam]

Jon dying and returning isn't what will set him free of his vows, it's when the wall comes down that he'll be free.

What are you basing this on? The Wall isn't even mentioned in the Night's Watch vows.

[sj4iy]

What are you basing this on? The Wall isn't even mentioned in the Night's Watch vows.

If there's no Wall, then there's no reason to guard it.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

[RumHam]

If there's no Wall, then there's no reason to guard it.

But it's not as if the vows of the Night's Watch say "we will guard this wall as long as it stands." They pledge to guard the realms of men.

[RumHam]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Note that it's "walls" not wall.

[Dr. Pepper]

Assuming such blade is neccesary to kill him, since the rest apparently aren´t good enough (to some), the betrayers will probably have the opportunity.

You are assuming Jon is saved by the chaos around, but there is not really sufficient evidence to support that last second save.

Varamyr chapter ends with Varamyr being a wolf, in his second life. If jon would have the same kind of experience the ellipsis would be reasonable.

Other non-finished storys didn´t have ellipsis. Arya for instance in Asos. She loses conscience after she is hit by the axe. No dots.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. You mention this mysterious fifth blade. There's no indication there was a fifth. He didn't even feel the fourth blade. That's fairly good evidence telling us that there may not have been a fourth blade, especially since he's still able to feel the cold, in which he's lying facedown. There's also the part where men suddenly started screaming when the first blade nicked his neck. Someone noticed that Jon was being attacked. I think it's most plausible that Wun Wun is the first to notice since he's facing the crowd while everyone else is facing him.

I'm not assuming that Jon is saved by the chaos. I am pointing out the obvious, which is that the chaos enabled Jon to be attacked in the first place. You're the one insisting that Bowen and co attacked Jon while everyone was watching and no one thought to intervene.

I'm glad you understand Varamyr is a wolf. You know, not a human. His time as Varamyr ended at his true death. He's now a wolf affectionately known as One-Eye. There is no Varamyr anymore, saving for a faint shadow that will disappear shortly. His story is done. No need for ellipsis.

I didn't realize anyone thought Arya's story was unfinished when Sandor knocked her in the head. I mean, there's Arya XII that makes it blindingly obvious she survived a potential concussion, but I guess there's the chance you skipped that chapter. :dunno:

You've mentioned in other posts that Varamyr line about Ghost being a second life fit for a king. Jon is basically the de facto wildling king at this point. No death necessary.

[Dr. Pepper]

Jon dying and returning isn't what will set him free of his vows, it's when the wall comes down that he'll be free.

He can also just turn his back on his vows. Though I don't know why he'd need to do anything to get out of the vows. He's turned his back on some of the traditions of the watch in order to really honor the vows. The wall had previously been operating more on tradition that the actual vow. It was a place of petty politics and adventure and some wildling hunting, who had become the mortal enemy over the centuries. The bulk of the problems he's faced within the watch as LC has been because he broke free of tradition in favor of honoring the vows.

[the conquering bastard 25]

it only lacks the drama if "old" Jon isn't there to react to the info. But if Jon spends some time in Ghost, there is no way that Jon's not coming back more beastly and more savage. He's already harden, coming back from a Caesar style killing is only going to stroke the flames, especially if Marsh and company are in power. I don't see any way around Jon not becoming darker, harder more Fire and Blood and less honorable. While Jon may still be an honorable man but his actions might become more grey and murky for the reader. We see with the whole Gilly episode that people aren't happy with Jon and his moral compass. As time passes and he grows into his powers with Ghost. Not to mention that Jon Snow was already something of a hot head, at time until he learned to control his temper. I mean the man saw red and lifted Thorne off his feet one handed and tried to kill the man. Another time he was being tacked by 3 men of the watch body blocked by Sam and had Pypar on his back. So I feel bad for the first man to try Jon in the yard with he wake up.

Then there is the fact even if he's not Dead an extended period of time in Ghost is still going to change the jon that we know. One can't be boned to a wolf and not expect changes. The beast becomes more human while the man be comes more savage.

So like I said even if he's not dead, there is no way that Jon's going to stay the straight and arrow moral compass he's been in the past. Then there would be no point of Jon embracing his bastard status and making it his shield. Talking about he has honor a bastards honor. Meaning he can do thing and react to thing and get away with them for the sole reason he's a bastard and they are treacherous by nature.

[sj4iy]

Note that it's "walls" not wall.

If the Wall comes down, all of the castles along it will come down, as well. The Watch would cease to function and that would be the end of it.

[sj4iy]

it only lacks the drama if "old" Jon isn't there to react to the info. But if Jon spends some time in Ghost, there is no way that Jon's not coming back more beastly and more savage. He's already harden, coming back from a Caesar style killing is only going to stroke the flames, especially if Marsh and company are in power. I don't see any way around Jon not becoming darker, harder more Fire and Blood and less honorable. While Jon may still be an honorable man but his actions might become more grey and murky for the reader. We see with the whole Gilly episode that people aren't happy with Jon and his moral compass. As time passes and he grows into his powers with Ghost. Not to mention that Jon Snow was already something of a hot head, at time until he learned to control his temper. I mean the man saw red and lifted Thorne off his feet one handed and tried to kill the man. Another time he was being tacked by 3 men of the watch body blocked by Sam and had Pypar on his back. So I feel bad for the first man to try Jon in the yard with he wake up.

Then there is the fact even if he's not Dead an extended period of time in Ghost is still going to change the jon that we know. One can't be boned to a wolf and not expect changes. The beast becomes more human while the man be comes more savage.

So like I said even if he's not dead, there is no way that Jon's going to stay the straight and arrow moral compass he's been in the past. Then there would be no point of Jon embracing his bastard status and making it his shield. Talking about he has honor a bastards honor. Meaning he can do thing and react to thing and get away with them for the sole reason he's a bastard and they are treacherous by nature.

...and what if he isn't actually a bastard?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

1. What exactly do think I'm arguing? I'm not asking rhetorically. I'm genuinely asking exactly what you think I've been arguing, because this seems like it's going in circles, and what you wrote doesn't address anything I've written.

2. And Jon can be king. He can be all sorts of different kinds of "king." The IT is not the exclusive model of kingship. And even if he becomes king of the IT, R+L need have nothing to do with it. In fact, given the way the story is headed, it's actually set up better for Jon to become king of the IT without appealing to R+L, getting there via some other channel (like consensus), and because of his bastardy.

3. So you strongly believe this second life business is huge foreshadowing, but only if Jon dies at the end of Book 5. If it turns out that Jon doesn't die here, then this piece of foreshadowing you seem to believe is so super strong will no longer apply for some reason.

4. The line can work without any sort of second life as a simple reference to Jon's kingliness. No one in Westeros recognizes that Jon's of the former royal line, but this warg sees kingliness in Ghost. It can easily function as just another hint that there's more to kingly (or queenliness) than a royal name. The way Jon recognizes Mel and Dalla as true queens, Mance as a true king despite his lack of power trappings, and all sorts of other deconstructions of power.

And no. Look at this. If we're going to take this as such literal foreshadowing, then "A second life worthy of a king" works better if Jon becomes king of something and then dies, going into this second life. I'm not hellbent on reading this as foreshadowing at all, but if we're going to entertain it as foreshadowing then it needs to be pointed out that it works whether Jon takes that second life before or after becoming a king.

1) pretty much agree with you with the need of personality change... i just disagree with the need of resolving R+L before death.. it could be dealt by old-Jon before his resurrection ("in between" if you will).. therefore New jon shouln´t.

2) yes, he can be all sorts of kings, he could be both KitN and King of westeros. Still R+L=J gives him the best claim to the IT. I´m sure that is to be used at some point.

There is, IMO, no chance whatsoever that a consensus can be formed to allow a bastard (because of his bastardy) to rule the seven kingdoms.

Unless the tragic events to be unfold, destroy the feudal society. It´s just not realistic. If Jon is named king through consensus (a great council of sorts), he could be a candidate because his leadership during the Long Night 2.0, or/and his identity as a targaryen, nor because people want a bastard to change stuff. Nobles would never allow such thing.

3) No, i believe it foreshadowing as long as he lives a Second life... when is another matter . I just find the second life more likely now., since the opportunity is so clear.

but think about it, if jon will be king, or will be revealed as king (one could argue he already is king) before his death.. then the line works backwards. The line foreshadows his second life, because of his kingship.. not his kingship because the second life... of course that is not so atractive since the bond with Ghost is well established before his kingship, and so are his warging habilities. There is not much to forehadow in that sense.

4) "this beast/companion/friend/whatever is worthy of a king" is one thing... "a second life in this beast is worthy of a king", is another. one demands the second life, the other just by having the beast...

always if we assume it has foreshadowing value (we can´t really know what GRRM was thinking when he wrote that line).. it could also be as you say just a reference on power deconstruccion.

5) true. literally he needs to be king. What does it mean though? Jon is already king by right of birth and blood, unless aegon is legit... he could even already be crowned in the ToJ according to some theories..

[RumHam]

If the Wall comes down, all of the castles along it will come down, as well. The Watch would cease to function and that would be the end of it.

It would be a huge blow to the watch, but not the end of the order. Nothing in your hypothetical situation would absolve any surviving brothers from their vows. It's "for this night and all my nights to come" not "from this night until we're totally fucked."

[sj4iy]

It would be a huge blow to the watch, but not the end of the order. Nothing in your hypothetical situation would absolve any surviving brothers from their vows. It's "for this night and all my nights to come" not "from this night until we're totally fucked."

Okay, what are they SUPPOSED to do in that situation? With no Wall to defend or castles to protect. Are they supposed to set up tents and freeze to death in the snow? The Night's Watch is hanging by a thread as it is already- the Iron Throne wouldn't let the Watch continue if it would cost them too much money to rebuild, they'd simply say "Fuck it" and dissolve it completely. Without support from the Seven Kingdoms, the Night's Watch doesn't exist.

That's why if the Wall comes down, there will be no Night's Watch.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. You mention this mysterious fifth blade. There's no indication there was a fifth. He didn't even feel the fourth blade. That's fairly good evidence telling us that there may not have been a fourth blade, especially since he's still able to feel the cold, in which he's lying facedown. There's also the part where men suddenly started screaming when the first blade nicked his neck. Someone noticed that Jon was being attacked. I think it's most plausible that Wun Wun is the first to notice since he's facing the crowd while everyone else is facing him.

I'm not assuming that Jon is saved by the chaos. I am pointing out the obvious, which is that the chaos enabled Jon to be attacked in the first place. You're the one insisting that Bowen and co attacked Jon while everyone was watching and no one thought to intervene.

I'm glad you understand Varamyr is a wolf. You know, not a human. His time as Varamyr ended at his true death. He's now a wolf affectionately known as One-Eye. There is no Varamyr anymore, saving for a faint shadow that will disappear shortly. His story is done. No need for ellipsis.

I didn't realize anyone thought Arya's story was unfinished when Sandor knocked her in the head. I mean, there's Arya XII that makes it blindingly obvious she survived a potential concussion, but I guess there's the chance you skipped that chapter. :dunno:

You've mentioned in other posts that Varamyr line about Ghost being a second life fit for a king. Jon is basically the de facto wildling king at this point. No death necessary.

there is no indication that such blade exists because our POV passes out (probably already dies).. but such blade would exist, or the betrayers would want it to exist, if Jon has no fatal wounds.. these people are not idiots. They know how to kill someone..

So yes, i´m assuming that once Jon passes out, (again, if he isn´t dead already) the betrayers will want to finish the job..

The same way you are assuming someone will save him in the last second, i´m assuming marsh will want to stab him one more time and be done with it..And the last options seems more reasonable (to me) with the information at hand. probably the fith blade isn´t even neccesary. since Jon was already facing the ground.

as ive shown before, feeling the cold, and not the pain, is consistent with Second life expierience. obviously Jon has the hability of such life, and reaches out to ghost before dying. So there is nothing unexpected with feeling cold but not the forth blade.

Varamyr: yet his chapter doesn´t end with his death..there is more than ellipsis.

.His story is fading, not ended. that is why the chapter doesn´t end with his death, and it shows us a bit of the second life..

BTw he is still varaymr, living in the body of a wolf, fading slowly to be fully replaced by the beast.

of course GRRM woulnd´t do that in Jon´s case.. therefore the ellipsis is well explained.

I didn't realize anyone thought Arya's story was unfinished when Sandor knocked her in the head. I mean, there's Arya XII that makes it blindingly obvious she survived a potential concussion, but I guess there's the chance you skipped that chapter.

So, you are saying you only need the ellipsis when the chapter is the last of some character of some book? is that what you are claiming?

You've mentioned in other posts that Varamyr line about Ghost being a second life fit for a king. Jon is basically the de facto wildling king at this point. No death necessary.

read again what i meant.

And BTw, Jon is no king beyond the wall, he is lord commander of the crows historical enemies of wildings, and kneelers. he made peace with (some) wildlings, nothing more.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Agreed, although part of me feels like he'd try to rebuild it at say fuck the IT (though I personally believe Cersei will finish her father's plan and burn KL to the ground, so no more IT).

[sj4iy]

Agreed, although part of me feels like he'd try to rebuild it at say fuck the IT (though I personally believe Cersei will finish her father's plan and burn KL to the ground, so no more IT).

Well, it depends. The only way to rebuild the Wall is with a massive amount of magic, so it's probably lost for good. If the Wall were to come down before they fight the Others, I think Jon, instead of trying to rebuild the Watch, would simply start going to the people of the Seven Kingdoms and trying to rally them to fight with him for the survival of humanity. If the Wall fell after, it would depend on whether or not the threat of the Others was completely gone from the world. If they were, then there would be no need of the NW; if they aren't, then he would rebuild the Night's Watch in a way that they could still guard the realms of men, even without the Wall. But all of those are the actions of a King, not the LC of the Night's Watch.

I think somehow, Jon's role will change dramatically in the next book. Whether he gets out of his vows by death, or by the Wall falling, or by the end of the Night's Watch, or by simply leaving the Night's Watch...his character needs to leave Castle Black. His greatest task will be spreading word throughout the Seven Kingdoms about the Others and trying to rally the people to fight them. For that, his role will have to change somehow.

[RumHam]

Okay, what are they SUPPOSED to do in that situation? With no Wall to defend or castles to protect. Are they supposed to set up tents and freeze to death in the snow? The Night's Watch is hanging by a thread as it is already- the Iron Throne wouldn't let the Watch continue if it would cost them too much money to rebuild, they'd simply say "Fuck it" and dissolve it completely. Without support from the Seven Kingdoms, the Night's Watch doesn't exist.

That's why if the Wall comes down, there will be no Night's Watch.

I guess they would fall back and fight against the Others in any way they could. I'm not arguing that there wouldn't be mass desertion at this point among the survivors, who wouldn't be many to being with.

The point is that a vow is to the gods, not to some Night's Watch authority that would be destroyed in your scenario.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Sorry I meant like in the distant future. Also, it kind of depends if it is possible to eradicate the WW. If you can, then there is no more need for a Wall.

[Ser Creighton]

What is he a ham?

The pig that was promised, Azor Ahai cured again, the Last Pork chop. Bacon born from salt and smoke he is the flavor bringer.

You know ice does not actually preserve the living. Hence it is a meat locker, nothing alive down there except the Rats. Dead bodies in the Ice cells, well there dead too. The Wights, they walk but they are dead as well. Freezing, you know you don't use Ice to warm the barracks you use fire so you don't freeze. I mean on a summer day it's nice to have some ice, you can drop it in your drink, and helps the meat not stink. Snow is pretty and winter is fine. But i'll take the fire and glass of mulled wine. He is the ice fire though, Puddles was the ice fire for about 10 seconds, that's why we call him Puddles. Funny thing is in between the north and the south do you know what you have? Puddles, the marshes.