jons resurection and "salt and smoke"

[Mithras]

You mean when he came back from Blackwater Bay?

In the first place, I do not see how he is directly comparable to Jon and Catelyn who were actively betrayed by their allies and assassinated.

And secondly, how is he not different? He tried to assassinate Melisandre; plotted the escape of Edric Storm; and convinced Stannis to sail to the Wall. He was little more than a passive observer before his brush with dead.

He felt betrayed by Mel. He believed that it was the result of her evil acts.

I don't think he changed at all because before the Blackwater, we do not have much chapters to know him closely. If anything, he grew much more suspicious to Mel and the Red Fools.

And? Jon wouldn't be the first "bastard" to sit the throne either.

I don't remember any king sitting on the throne as a bastard.

[butterbumps!]

This entire issue is a little difficult to define because I think the most likely outcome is that Jon will not die in anything but the physical sense, but he will definitely die in that way. His heart will stop beating for a long while. His spirit though, and his sense of self, will be carried on in Ghost.

Now, if Melisandre were to heal his body, and he returned to it, could it really be said that he "died"?

But it looks like you're looking for a loophole to the logic you just agreed Martin uses. If Ghost is the loophole in a literal death that allows a supposed continuity of character, this is precisely against what Martin says he stands for.

I don't remember any king sitting on the throne as a bastard.

Well, Jof did, despite all of Stannis' PR efforts. And the Tyrells certainly know, though it didn't stop them from marrying into Tommen.

Generally, though, people really don't care about names increasingly. They follow leaders for other reasons. But if a name features in this at all, why not go back to what Tyrion tells Jon about armoring himself in it so others can't use it against him, and then extend that to the next logical conclusion-- that Jon learns to wield that name not only defensively, but as an asset, something that already came up in his election, where his bastardy played an equal part in that victory as his noble upbringing had.

[sj4iy]

This entire issue is a little difficult to define because I think the most likely outcome is that Jon will not die in anything but the physical sense, but he will definitely die in that way. His heart will stop beating for a long while. His spirit though, and his sense of self, will be carried on in Ghost.

Now, if Melisandre were to heal his body, and he returned to it, could it really be said that he "died"?

Well, even today, we say that someone has come back from the dead if their heart stops beating and they are brought back (even if they never experienced any actual brain death). Back then, the heart was the only thing that counted, because people didn't understand about brain death, so if his heart were to stop beating for any amount of time but he is brought back after that, even if it were only a minute or two, I think he would be considered as having died.

[Faint]

But it looks like you're looking for a loophole to the logic you just agreed Martin uses. If Ghost is the loophole in a literal death that allows a supposed continuity of character, this is precisely against what Martin says he stands for.

What I am arguing is that he will be changed regardless of whether he dies or not. The biggest factor in his change will be his betrayal; not the technicality of whether he will have been resurrected.

Although, and this is unrelated to my point, Melisandre's healing, if it comes, is not likely to leave him much the same physically either. Look at Vicatrion's hand. The results will not necessarily be pretty.

He might even bleed black and need fire to keep him going, much like Melisandre does.

[Cas Stark]

This entire issue is a little difficult to define because I think the most likely outcome is that Jon will not die in anything but the physical sense, but he will definitely die in that way. His heart will stop beating for a long while. His spirit though, and his sense of self, will be carried on in Ghost.

Now, if Melisandre were to heal his body, and he returned to it, could it really be said that he "died"?

That would be the most whacked out choice GRRM could possibly make. His body dies and is reanimated but nothing changes because he's been in Ghost the whole time.

[butterbumps!]

What I am arguing is that he will be changed regardless of whether he dies or not. The biggest factor in his change will be his betrayal; not the technicality of whether he will have been resurrected.

Although, and this is unrelated to my point, Melisandre's healing, if it comes, is not likely to leave him much the same physically either. Look at Vicatrion's hand. The results will not necessarily be pretty.

He might even bleed black and need fire to keep him going, much like Melisandre does.

I don't think that's true at all. The betrayal is a major crisis. If he survives it, then he's reacting to it as the Jon we've gotten to know, and if having experienced this crisis changes his outlook and he chooses a different path, then that's clearly legible as a continuation of Jon's evolution. If he dies in this and comes back, then the Jon who's reacting to this is a function of being fundamentally changed by death, and subsequent actions are no longer legible as Jon's doing.

[Faint]

That would be the most whacked out choice GRRM could possibly make. His body dies and is reanimated but nothing changes because he's been in Ghost the whole time.

No, like I have been saying, the changes in his personality, by and large, will come as a result of the betrayal he suffered and the collapse of his plans.

And his body, with whatever is done to fix it, will probably be nothing like his body before "death." It would not surprise me if he ends up with something like Melisandre's body, which does not age but is seemingly nourished by some kind of fire -- along with the side effects that entails (i.e., little need of sleep or food).

Now, if his personality does undergo any changes strictly attributable to this whole process, assuming this is how he is revived, I think it would come as a result of being in Ghost too long. I suppose he might become feral-like and lose many of his memories.

[sj4iy]

No, like I have been saying, the changes in his personality, by and large, will come as a result of the betrayal he suffered and the collapse of his plans.

And his body, with whatever is done to fix it, will probably be nothing like his body before "death." It would not surprise me if he ends up with something like Melisandre's body, which does not age but is seemingly nourished by some kind of fire -- along with the side effects that entails (i.e., little need of sleep or food).

Now, if his personality does undergo any changes strictly attributable to this whole process, assuming this is how he is revived, I think it would come as a result of being in Ghost too long. I suppose he might become feral-like and lose many of his memories.

I honestly don't see how the betrayal will be that shocking or surprising to him. It's not like he trusted these men. I also think that if he is truly Azor Ahai reborn, he will not need her magic to sustain his life in any way. His gods are the Old Gods. I think any supernatural help he receives will be from BR, Bran and Ghost.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Who says there will be no nobility? Or that what remains of the nobility (much of which has already taken a huge hit) wouldn't rally for him, provided that they saw a reason that would benefit them by doing it? Westeros is in winter now. The idea that they need a king for winter (as opposed to a knight of summer) is kind of already presented. Winter has made it to KL-- they're getting snowstorms in Kevan's epilogue, so winter isn't just a northern problem. Jon Snow is of winter. The LC of the Watch strikes me as a good candidate to draw from in terms of who might know how to get shit done in the face of this.

But ok, I get why you think he's dead. I've agreed multiple times that his death is a possible outcome.

The North needs a winter king, that could be Jon. so yes of course Jon KitN works..

but weren´t we assuming only the possibility of Jon sitting the irton throne after the war for dawn 2.0?

Once the Long night is over, why would the 7k want a winter king?

i think the main theme of the story is both things.. balance.. a song of ice and fire..

Jon as both Stark and Targaryen..

[Cas Stark]

No, like I have been saying, the changes in his personality, by and large, will come as a result of the betrayal he suffered and the collapse of his plans.

And his body, with whatever is done to fix it, will probably be nothing like his body before "death." It would not surprise me if he ends up with something like Melisandre's body, which does not age but is seemingly nourished by some kind of fire -- along with the side effects that entails (i.e., little need of sleep or food).

Now, if his personality does undergo any changes strictly attributable to this whole process, assuming this is how he is revived, I think it would come as a result of being in Ghost too long. I suppose he might become feral-like and lose many of his memories.

Sorry, I don't agree. That is way too out there. He will be seriously injured, he will have permanent injuries, e.g. the limp he has in his dream. He will be in a coma for some time and warg into Ghost. Mel may or may not use some level of magic to save his life, but it will be to save his life not bring him or his body back from the dead.

He will not lose his memories, become feral like, need fire to live.

[Faint]

His gods are the Old Gods. I think any supernatural help he receives will be from BR, Bran and Ghost.

Well, that is one option. Although, I can hardly see how his preferences will factor in this situation at all. If Melisandre gets to his body first (and Ghost as well, now that I think about it, since she has a way with the direwolf and knows where it is), what Jon wants means nothing at all.

[Faint]

He will not lose his memories, become feral like, need fire to live.

Is this wish fulfillment talking or do you truly believe that?

I myself would find it curious that we were explicitly and repeatedly told what would would happen if you stayed in the skin of a creature too long, both in Bran's chapters and in the Varmyr prologue, if nothing was to come of that information.

[Cas Stark]

Is this wish fulfillment talking or do you truly believe that?

I myself would find it curious that we were explicitly and repeatedly told what would would happen if you stayed in the skin of a creature too long, both in Bran's chapters and in the Varmyr prologue, if nothing was to come of that information.

In a series full of random information and "world building" where we have POVs for no discernable reason except the author wrote them and you think that that info about wargs has to relate to Jon?

Jon Snow waking up as a feral weirdo with no memories would just be nuts. It would be even more nuts than killing him. What purpose would that serve? How many chapters or books would it take him to regain his memories?

[sj4iy]

Well, that is one option. Although, I can hardly see how his preferences will factor in this situation at all. If Melisandre gets to his body first (and Ghost as well, now that I think about it, since she has a way with the direwolf and knows where it is), what Jon wants means nothing at all.

Melisandre knows about BR and Bran, she has seen them in her fires. If they are somehow with Jon, like BR with was Bran when he was seriously injured, then she wouldn't interfere.

Also, I don't think that losing his memories is necessarily something that has to happen. If anything, it simply gives Jon a time limit on how long he can stay within Ghost and not lose himself.

[butterbumps!]

The North needs a winter king, that could be Jon. so yes of course Jon KitN works..

but weren´t we assuming only the possibility of Jon sitting the irton throne after the war for dawn 2.0?

Once the Long night is over, why would the 7k want a winter king?

i think the main theme of the story is both things.. balance.. a song of ice and fire..

Jon as both Stark and Targaryen..

But winter has come to the whole continent. This isn't really North v South anymore. It's an issue that affects everyone.

I'm not assuming anything about the final timeline beyond a certain point. It sounds like Martin is planning to end the novels while winter is still around (as in "A Dream of Spring" would imply it's still winter). Whether that means we end after the Others are bullied back from whence they came, before that, or in a period of rebuilding in what's essentially nuclear winter, I don't know.

So if they're still facing winter by the end of this-- in whatever state that is, which seems likely given the name of the last book--- then concluding with a king who knows winter is one logical conclusion of this.

We do see the expression of that ice fire balance in Jon. The religion he firmly embraces is the old gods, the one that involves both elements in balance. Politically, he's on the spectrum between "ice" (preservationism" and "fire" (social upheaval). That is, he's kind of a reformer in the series, countering both someone like Stannis and someone like Dany for a fairly unique model of leadership. I mean, it's not like ice/ fire doesn't feature in Jon's overall position of various types of balance throughout the story without some literal appeal to taking the throne as Jon Targ, or even claiming that identity at all.

[Faint]

In a series full of random information and "world building" where we have POVs for no discernable reason except the author wrote them and you think that that info about wargs has to relate to Jon?

Jon Snow waking up as a feral weirdo with no memories would just be nuts. It would be even more nuts than killing him. What purpose would that serve? How many chapters or books would it take him to regain his memories?

In the first place, prologues are there for a reason. As the author himself has mentioned on countless occasions.

And nowhere did I say that Jon would be completely feral and lose all his memories. I said he might become more feral and lose some of his memories. He would still be Jon in the same sense that someone like Catelyn is still Catelyn, Beric was Beric, and so forth.

I am not here arguing that Jon will not know who he is; why he was killed; or any of that.

[sj4iy]

In the first place, prologues are there for a reason. As the author himself has mentioned on countless occasions.

And nowhere did I say that Jon would be completely feral and lose all his memories. I said he might become more feral and lose some of his memories. He would still be Jon in the same sense that someone like Catelyn is still Catelyn, Beric was Beric, and so forth.

I am not here arguing that Jon will not know who he is; why he was killed; or any of that.

Both Beric and Cat are no longer Beric and Cat. A person is made up of their experiences and memories...when you lose that, you are no longer the same person you were. Neither of them were the same people that they once were. If Jon loses part of himself, even a little, he won't be Jon anymore. I think that's why some people wouldn't be happy if that were to happen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Beric didn't start losing himself until he had been brought back repeatedly. One resurrection, if done right away after his death, should leave him relatively intact. Cat is the one who was most changed, and she was dead for days and beginning to decay. The ice cells might actually help prevent some of that in Jon and make him less likely to go unJon on everybody when he's brought back.

Of course this still assumes that he's dead, which he isn't.

[sj4iy]

Beric didn't start losing himself until he had been brought back repeatedly. One resurrection, if done right away after his death, should leave him relatively intact. Cat is the one who was most changed, and she was dead for days and beginning to decay. The ice cells might actually help prevent some of that in Jon and make him less likely to go unJon on everybody when he's brought back.

Of course this still assumes that he's dead, which he isn't.

That's not true about the speed of resurrection leaving him relatively intact. He comes back from each resurrection with fewer and fewer memories without any reference at all to how quickly they were done. Just because he doesn't end up like Cat doesn't mean that doing it quickly helps.

[Ser Creighton]

Absolutely no chance, read it again.When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”The first wound couldn't have hit anything vital. It's right there in the text....sure. Not sure what it has to do with the Jon's barely grazed neck.Actually, I believe we were talking about wounds that would kill quickly, since some people seem to think that Jon was dead by the time he keeled over. A stomach wound wouldn't do that, and some people have survived stab wounds to the stomach without surgery. Infection would be the mostly likely cause of death from an injury to the stomach (barring bleeding out, of course)...but he wouldn't have died then.Still not sure what you're getting at with Jon's inability to grab Longclaw.It's not 'only' the spine. There's a lot of area between the shoulder blades, and a lot of ribs, which could deflect a knife wound if not aimed just in the right place. Also, he was on his knees at this point, so the knife was likely coming from above, and not directly behind. Without more information, it's impossible to tell what kind of wound this is. It could be extremely serious or it might not be.Yeah, that doesn't make sense. If this is from his POV, it shouldn't be possible to bring up the 4th knife if he didn't feel it. Then again, he didn't feel Ygritte's arrow in his leg until hours later. He could have felt cold from shock (most likely) or he could have simply felt the cold of the ground beneath him.Jon might die later. But I don't see how he's dead right then and there from what we are told, which was the point we brought up in the thread earlier. Also, I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that Martin would give us TWO paralyzed Starks.I admittedly don't know how Martin will tackle it. But he's written it in such a way that Jon could feasibly survive or feasibly die.

Well I did read it and the artery is probably nicked a scratch does not usually well up blood through your fingers. The Carotid artery sits right below the skin a wound of 1-2 mm can kill you. Cup your hand and poor water in it, see how much water it takes, half cup? That's a lot of blood in a second. Only one thing is going to cause that. You ever have a injury where the blood welled through your fingers? That's a lot of blood actually. Does not need to be a big injury it's an artery, a major blood vessel, go ahead and put your fingers on the side of your neck, feel pumping? That's it, look in the mirror and turn your head you can see it. Mostly the concern with a nick is not death, it's brain damage, less blood means less oxygen to the brain, you can have seizure a stroke and normally you pass out pretty quickly about 12 seconds.

I am not saying Jon died then, just that the wounds are more than enough to kill someone. You pretty much pierce anything in the abdomen and your getting infection, the stomach and intestines release matter into your body you really don't want floating around. Kidney or liver get hit and your dead, your spleen gets hit and your dead, puncture the gallbladder and your intestines are sitting in your own bile and your dead.

I don't think Jon is dead I do think he passed out, but his wounds are pretty damn bad.

If your wondering about why I think it's odd he couldn't grab Long claw but could grab the dagger after the fact, it's self explanatory.

Oh and between the scapula is the spine those are your shoulder blades, and your spine is about 2 1/2 inches wide up there it's the thickest part of the spine, you only got about an inch on either side of rib between the scapula and your T-3 vertebra and lower. The lower you get the more rib spacing you get but Jon is already on his knees, but in truth it's actually hard not to hit the spine when your going between the shoulder blades.

Mostly if it is at all realistic you can field patch the neck with ash and bandages, ash is just carbon. He could get lucky and they never touched his spine though, there is not much room to work with, and he could of gotten stabbed in the stomach with a dagger and nothing got damaged, I mean sure he would be the luckiest guy alive but mostly I think he needs magic help. Can Mel heal him? Well we didn't know any of the Red Priests could do anything until we saw them do it. Clearly they practice this stuff, Maybe Mel ditched class I don't know but it seems like she could. Not saying it will be her. Maybe Martin slaps a bandaid on Jon and is like he is all good. Seems unlikely though.

Remember something about the neck, Jon can't see it, he thinks it's a nick, but the blood suggests it's what got nicked that is important.

I also wonder if the third knife is in him still, it doesn't say it got pulled out, also it sort of matters on the size of the knives. I might also point you to the Mercy chapter, that's a nick on an artery. Medieval daggers were generally pretty big knives.

It's just hard to write the damage done to him with 3 or four daggers in those locations as not killing him within a week at the latest. Even after that he should have major problems for months and or permanently. The guy burnt his hand and it still feels odd 3 years later. He took how long to recover from an arrow to the leg? It's a tough call because I highly doubt Jon died there, just that I can only see one way for him to survive. Like normal survive not undead. I mean even if he survived via normal means he would need to be in beed for several weeks on a liquid diet, and maybe 3-4 months before he was really up and about.

I mean I can also go into the the aorta, inferior vena cava and mesenteric veins which are all located in the abdominal region, and that's a kill shot as well. Thing about the stomach is it is just packed with stuff and Westeros has not shown anyone with the surgical skill to help nor have they reached a level with antibodies to help the kind of infections. So magic. That's the only outcome that could save him as far as I can tell. I mean feel free to search the web there are forums out there to discuss these injuries. Medical sites, most will tell you the same thing I did.

Martin may reverse the whole thing, and just say Jon was unreliable and he had mail on under his clothes and the daggers just barely broke the skin and got stuck in the layers of his clothing. He is a bit sore and had to get like 4 stitches. Though that seems unlikely.