sj4iy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 that should be, Cold--->loss of consciousness--->death yet Varaymyr.. last thought as man----> death---cold... shouldn´t his last thought as a man be the cold?? is Jon king? then this foreshadows his second life in Ghost. Difference being we saw Varamyr die. We didn't see Jon die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 We didn't see Jon die. We might have. Lets face it the only real reason so many of us think he survived is because we want it to be so. We think he's too important to just die and spend the rest of the books in the body of a wolf. The other thing people cling to is "so you think he's dead, do you?" That's not martin saying "sucker, he's not dead." That's Martin saying "nice try, but I'm not going to confirm things either way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 varaymr feels the cold when the "true death comes" He's still alive when he feels the cold. After the "true death comes" he doesn't feel a thing. Here's more proof that Jon is alive...this didn't happen in a prologue or epilogue. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 We might have. Lets face it the only real reason so many of us think he survived is because we want it to be so. We think he's too important to just die and spend the rest of the books in the body of a wolf. The other thing people cling to is "so you think he's dead, do you?" That's not martin saying "sucker, he's not dead." That's Martin saying "nice try, but I'm not going to confirm things either way." No, we didn't see him die. We saw him as he lost consciousness, which could lead to his death...but we didn't SEE him actually die. It's not wishful thinking to say that he may not be dead. It's simply not jumping to conclusions based on the evidence in the text, and the fact that Martin likes to pull these 'Gotcha!"s all the time. We saw Varamyr actually die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Difference being we saw Varamyr die. We didn't see Jon die. we don´t know. i´m just pointing out that feeling the cold, but not the pain of the last knife could be a second life.. or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 He's still alive when he feels the cold. After the "true death comes" he doesn't feel a thing. Here's more proof that Jon is alive...this didn't happen in a prologue or epilogue. :D the way i read it, cold comes after true death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 the way i read it, cold comes after true death. Of course, it could also mean shock, as I mentioned. Or it could also mean that he's in a very cold place surrounded by snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Wasn´t he stabbed four times? he didn´t feel the forth.. Why wound an enemy if you can kill him? Jon was sorrounded by enemies..i mean, just get it done..once he is in the ground, you need one more stab well placed and he is gone. i think with the ones we know of, with no maester around, i think he should have no way of surviving. Eh? Jon had a handful of enemies around him. These are the ones who happened to have knives at the times. You know you else was around? Wildlings, North Men, other Black Brothers. AND a giant who just turned turned Ser Patrek into bleeding star soup. This giant also happens to really like Jon. One would think that if Jon were surrounded by so many allies, the enemies wouldn't have the opportunity to keep stabbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeStallion Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The salt is the wall itself. In Bran's last chapter of SoS, he notes that the dripping water is salty like a tear. The wall is made out of sea water (salty), and the smoke likely will either be his wounds or some kind of ritual that Mel does to bring him back to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 By contrast, we see Jon grow from boy to man, we observe the various influences that shape his personality, we see how his perspective changes, how he internalizes what various mentors or experiences teach him. All that happens gradually. His character develops in a psychologically believable way. This careful character building would come to nothing if, after the Ides of Marsh, we got back a fundamentally different Jon, basically a new character, who represents only a narrow segment of the real Jon-character, or a character that is just the complete opposite of the former Jon. I agree that the assassination attempt and its aftermath have the potential to further influence Jon's personality, to change his perspective once more in a logical and believable way. I don't see any need for a dramatically abrupt and (IMO) final and ultimate change that would be in essence a magical change (and at least as much the consequence of the magic that happens to be used as the consequence of the character's actual experience), while the true character development we have witnessed in five volumes could still be continued. Besides, I really hope Jon's character arc will still include experiences that require a character with the complexity of feelings only a truly living human being can have (like when he discovers his true parentage) – as well as decisions that necessitate a truly living character with full moral responsibility and personal risks to take. I completely agree. There is so much effort spent on Jon's bildungsroman, that an interruption of that to supplant him with a new character seems very abortive. Right now, ending Jon by removing him entirely or replacing him with a new Jon doesn't seem like writing Jon to his conclusion (whereas, I think Cat's arc arguably had been). 1) agreed 2) ok, its just shadow Jon, could be understood as a lesser character. That need not be the case. Now i see what you mean 3) some readers believe the R+l=J will be revealed "in between" so as to speak. An Induced dream by Bloodraven/Bran, with a meeting with Ned/Lyanna/Rhaegar in winterfell crypt. So that, when resurrected he is reborn as Jon Targaryen. easy to explain sharp personality changes after that. 4) or because he lost sense of pain, only cold (as Varamyr) But you are right, we won´t solve it. It´s left like that for a reason. I ´m just pointing out, that IMO, it would be a little lame if he were to survive. We can know for sure Marsh and co are in for the kill, characters shouldn´t be that useless when it comes to killing main characters. lol.. i understand your position though. i 3. Well, I disagree with "some readers" in that case. More specifically, I don't take issue with the idea that R+L is revealed "in between;" especially if he's in some kind of coma or experiences a fever dream, that possibility has been duly set up-- that is, he might finally play out that recurring crypt dream to its conclusion, and discover it through that. Or he talks to Bran. Or he opens his 3rd eye and gets the vision. Or Bloodraven does more dream walking. The mechanics are set up, and any of them seem plausible for this to take place right after the stabbing. What I disagree with is that Jon would embrace his Targ identity. I'm open to the idea that he might entertain embracing it for some period of time, but ultimately, I don't think he will if we're looking a Jon who doesn't get resurrected. We can predict how the Jon we've gotten to know would react to news of R+L. The logical conclusion of that reveal to the Jon Snow we've gotten to know is that he will finally choose his "Snow" identity once and for all. We can base that on Jon's relationship to this bastard identity and his long-standing dream of being trueborn. He's made it a life goal to prove that a bastard can be as good as a trueborn. He's framed much of his outlook in terms of whether Ned would approve. This Jon would not suddenly forego his father as Ned to claim a Targ identity, nor would he take the low hanging-fruit to declare himself a trueborn. This Jon-- finally confronted with his ostensible dream of being trueborn-- would choose to embrace his bastard identity. But does a resurrected Jon make that same choice? The Jon we've gotten to know has been set up to make the aforementioned decision for the last 3 books he appears in. A new Jon might not, especially if all his emotions, memory and cognitive functions don't remain in tact. That Jon might not recall the particular significance of Ned, and might see a Targ claim as a way to make an ambitious power grab. Which, to be sure, could be sort of interesting, and also a twist on the hidden prince trope. That is, we, as readers, are highly conflicted about whether this new Jon ought to be owning his Targ identity and making a power play. But we basically already have that story in Dany's arc, and Aegon's introduction. It's rather redundant. I'm not sure what you mean by "sharp personality change" that needs explaining. is Jon king? then this foreshadows his second life in Ghost. Or it's yet another clue that he's Rhaegar's son. Or that Jon will become a king in some capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Dead Just Broken Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Jon may get thrown into an ice cell as a comment of his treatment of his enemies' corpses thus fulfilling the "blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice" prophecy from ACOK. I think he's almost certainly dead. His storyline is done. There's nothing left for him to do. He's never going to be King of anything. It's not his personality. Honestly, I wouldn't read too much into any of the salt and smoke stuff. There are too many fires and too many tears. You can make a salt and smoke argument about a lot of different characters. Jon (see above), Bran (the sea coming to Winterfell and then it being burnt), Dany (for obvious reasons), Theon (the sacking of Pyke making him a Stark), Euron (trip to Valyria being almost like a trip to hell), Victarion (whatever the heck Moqorro did), Davos (reborn on the Blackwater), Stannis (reborn on the Blackwater/Dragonstone), Shireen (Dragonstone). I don't think in isolation "salt and smoke" means anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJD Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Some people want Jon dead and resurrected because they feel it would absolve him from his Night Watch vows. If he's just wounded and recovers, it doesn't matter of he's Jon Stark (GNC) or Jon Targaryan (R+L=J), because he can't claim his birthright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Jon may get thrown into an ice cell as a comment of his treatment of his enemies' corpses thus fulfilling the "blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice" prophecy from ACOK. You mean, the treatment that the Night's Watch gives to most of their prisoners and have done for generations? I think he's almost certainly dead. His storyline is done. There's nothing left for him to do. He's never going to be King of anything. It's not his personality. Yeah, it's not like he has to find out about his parents or how he was born or anything. I mean, it's barely mentioned throughout the story and it's not like anyone wants to know. Honestly, I wouldn't read too much into any of the salt and smoke stuff. There are too many fires and too many tears. You can make a salt and smoke argument about a lot of different characters. Jon (see above), Bran (the sea coming to Winterfell and then it being burnt), Dany (for obvious reasons), Theon (the sacking of Pyke making him a Stark), Euron (trip to Valyria being almost like a trip to hell), Victarion (whatever the heck Moqorro did), Davos (reborn on the Blackwater), Stannis (reborn on the Blackwater/Dragonstone), Shireen (Dragonstone). I don't think in isolation "salt and smoke" means anything. It was never supposed to be taken in isolation. It's supposed to be taken in conjunction with rebirth, a bleeding star, dragons waking from stone and/or a burning sword. Only Dany has completely all of the above from your list to our knowledge. Jon has completed part of the prophecy, but not all of it. The others have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Some people want Jon dead and resurrected because they feel it would absolve him from his Night Watch vows. If he's just wounded and recovers, it doesn't matter of he's Jon Stark (GNC) or Jon Targaryan (R+L=J), because he can't claim his birthright. He can always choose to leave the Watch. He's hardly the first oathbreaker-- Bloodraven and Mance of the Watch specifically, and look at Jaime as well. If Jon needs or wants to leave the Watch, then have him just leave. Is it truly worth this "get out of jail free" card, when it means that it will be an entirely new character freed of those vows? Further, sometimes breaking a vow is the right thing to do. I don't happen to take the position that keeping vows is some transcendent good on its own or anything. You can claim whatever you want to claim with enough people behind you, backing whatever it is. According to the "status quo" Renly couldn't declare himself king either, but that didn't stop the largest army from defending that claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 What is he a ham? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Eh? Jon had a handful of enemies around him. These are the ones who happened to have knives at the times. You know you else was around? Wildlings, North Men, other Black Brothers. AND a giant who just turned turned Ser Patrek into bleeding star soup. This giant also happens to really like Jon. One would think that if Jon were surrounded by so many allies, the enemies wouldn't have the opportunity to keep stabbing. yet non of those "allies" can intervene before he gets stabbed. What makes you think they will take care of the betrayers before they can get that last fatal wound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmure's Floppy Fish Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I like the idea of Jon being revived by the sacrifice of 2 "Kings". Since he is Ice and Fire, both types of magic is used. I think Melidsandre will give Shireen to the flames, and Theon will be sacrificed in front of a Weirwood. This will "hatch the dragon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 yet non of those "allies" can intervene before he gets stabbed. What makes you think they will take care of the betrayers before they can get that last fatal wound? You really think it's going to take SOMEONE very long to figure out what just happened to the LC when he was yelling orders at them just a few moments earlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 3. Well, I disagree with "some readers" in that case. More specifically, I don't take issue with the idea that R+L is revealed "in between;" especially if he's in some kind of coma or experiences a fever dream, that possibility has been duly set up-- that is, he might finally play out that recurring crypt dream to its conclusion, and discover it through that. Or he talks to Bran. Or he opens his 3rd eye and gets the vision. Or Bloodraven does more dream walking. The mechanics are set up, and any of them seem plausible for this to take place right after the stabbing. What I disagree with is that Jon would embrace his Targ identity. I'm open to the idea that he might entertain embracing it for some period of time, but ultimately, I don't think he will if we're looking a Jon who doesn't get resurrected. Indeed many ways to play it. And the revelation "in between" would be somewhat similar whether he dies or not.. I think he will eventually embrace it, but according to the monomyth, if the ultimate boon is his identity, he could have the stage of "refusal to return" in which he could rejects being a Targ...all that could be temporary though. maybe he meets the goddess (lyanna) in that dream and that triggers the change.. every possibility is as likely as the last..but IMO, at the end he should embrace the fact that he is part Targ, part Stark. Or it's yet another clue that he's Rhaegar's son. Or that Jon will become a king in some capacity. Only if, Jon indeed lives that second life..If he doesn´t, then it isn´t foreshadowing anyhting. To live that second life, he must first die.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 You really think it's going to take SOMEONE very long to figure out what just happened to the LC when he was yelling orders at them just a few moments earlier? 4 attacks, no intervention.. Suddenly in the lapse between the forth and the fifth stab (easier, and quicker against a dying enemy), all of the betrayers get neutralized? is that a likely scenario? i don´t think so.. unless the betrayers are sloppy and leave a dying enemy for dead.. plus Jon gets some great healer to take care of him, .he should die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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