Lord Varys Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 What's the consensus here? We know that Rhaegar changed his mind at least one time. First he believed he was the promised prince, then he changed his mind and thought his son Aegon was the promised prince. When he did that, he also concluded for some occult reason that he had to father (at least) another child because 'the dragon has three heads'. We know that Elia could not bear any children after the birth of Aegon, and that Rhaegar obviously decided that Lyanna should be the one who gave birth to his third child. But did he also concluded that his child by Lyanna would be the one whose 'song is the song of ice and fire'? I'd like to put forward the notion that - assuming that Rhaegar did indeed change his opinion on that topic yet again - we have a very good reason to dismiss Jon Snow as the candidate for the promised prince. The purpose of the Rhaegar character - the melancholy, prophecy-obsessed prince - seems to fail to interpret the prophecy correctly. His hubris is that he thinks it is his job fulfill the prophecy, or help the prophecy to 'fulfill itself'. It would surprise me if Rhaegar was ever right about the prophecy - he is pretty much the kind of guy Marwyn seems to aiming at with his quote about how prophecy fuck with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 So you think then Aemon was right and it's Daenerys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 We have no evidence he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I think Rhaegar did change his mind. He's a pretty intelligent guy, and if he thinks that TPTWP needs to have the song of ice and fire, then it can't be a son born of him and Elia (two fire elements). But going off with Lyanna (ice) and having a child would yield what he's looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 What makes Lyanna ice? Every northern has as much Bran the builder blood them as her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Rhaegar may simply have thought that his duty was done, he made a prince. Aerys could raise baby Aegon to take over, and maybe even skip Rhaegar. That Rhaegar was dangerously obsessed with prophecy never made sense to me, from the books. (There is never consensus.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 What makes Lyanna ice? Every northern has as much Bran the builder blood them as her. Yes but she's the one he ran off with. It could have been another northern girl, I'm sure, but there were a variety of factors for Lyanna and Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 From Aemon, "Fire consumes, but cold preserves." -AFfC p. 383It has always struck me that, personality-wise; Rhaegar is more ice (conservative and dutiful) and Lyanna is rather more fire (a 'touch of the wolf' personality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 From Aemon, "Fire consumes, but cold preserves." -AFfC p. 383It has always struck me that, personality-wise; Rhaegar is more ice (conservative and dutiful) and Lyanna is rather more fire (a 'touch of the wolf' personality). I've wondered that too. We tend to associate them as fire (R ) and ice (L) based on sigils, ect but really their personalities are fire (L) and ice (R ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bolton Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I don't think it's a coincidence that grrm has avoided the mixing of northern and Targeryen blood throughout all of Westeros' history until now, then named the entire series "A Song of Ice and Fire." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new djinn Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 What makes Lyanna ice? Every northern has as much Bran the builder blood them as her. Well, she Ice because she a descendant of a King-beyond-the-Wall (Bael) and her dad's sword is called Ice and she was sexy(unlike those ugly northern women). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 As to the king Bael part, again, so is every other northerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I don't think it's a coincidence that grrm has avoided the mixing of northern and Targeryen blood throughout all of Westeros' history until now, then named the entire series "A Song of Ice and Fire." Bloodraven. And a couple unknown and indirect times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 My point would be that there would be a rather good chance that Jon is not the promised prince, if Rhaegar thought he was (supposed to be) the promised prince. The chance that he successfully did conceive the promised prince - if he thought he was doing exactly that - is almost zero. Whereas the thought that Aerys father the savior of the world after Rhaegar was already dead and after he had just burned Lord Chelsted is way too good to be not true. So, yeah, I'm in the Dany camp. But I'm also inclined to believe that 'the dragon has three heads' in the prophetical promised prince sense (not in the 'banner of Aegon and his sisters' sense) means that there will be more than one savior (i.e. three). I would be not be surprised if we would find - if/when we finally get the text of the prophecy - that one interpretation would be that there are three heroes/princes/princess, not just one. If the promised prince alone would have been enough, then there would have been no need for Rhaegar to father a third child. The best candidates for this trinity of 'three heroes' would be Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Bloodraven. And a couple unknown and indirect times. Bloodraven wasn't from a northern family, the Blackwoods are from the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 BBE, not that I back these silly theories, Bloodraven was a southerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Bloodraven wasn't from a northern family, the Blackwoods are from the Riverlands. ...and his grandmother a born Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Was that part of the family tree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 ...and his grandmother a born Stark. I did not know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Was that part of the family tree? Sort of. We know that the House Stark married a daughter to Lord Blackwood a couple decades earlier. Exact dates nonwithstanding, she would have been either his grandmother or great-grandmother (if all relevant children were born young). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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