The Sacred Order of Green Men.

[NorthernXY]

I always thought the Green Men were like Mormons on their mission. Those really committed to Old Gods went on a mission of a certain time to live on and guard the island.

[barristan-b]

There's some awesome stuff in this thread.

I think it's all about balance as well. Something new to note:

The God's eye and Isle lies right at the midpoint of Planetos' most prominent ice and fire areas. Go back to the Dawn Age, you had a direct land connection from the future Valyrian capital all the way to the Lands of Always Winter with the God's Eye pretty much smack dab in between and with the Prince's pass, no substantial natural barriers pre-wall. (http://quartermaester.info/)

Something to consider is that with greensight, the former CotF-greenseers may have anticipated the First Men arriving, the Andal Invasion, arrival of Dragons, and a lot of stuff.

The pact was signed ~10,300 years back, the Long Night ~8,300, Andal Invasion ~blurred between 6,000-2,000 (I find this odd..Valyria is rising/existing during the same time the pact is broken and Andals take the south) A reverse Long Night with Essos being essentially destroyed (Rhoynar) and a fiery push west is occurring, eventually culminating in the Conquest and Targ dyansty, bringing dragons to Westeros within the last 300 years.

What if the original greenseers saw the children's population diminishing...therefore used the first men to preserve balance and the pact is not just for peace but was actually the Singers instilling and teaching the ways for the First Men to keep balance for when the Andals and eventual dragons came? I love the idea of this being where they were given their powers from (i.e. Warging, Sight, etc.). At the pact on the Isle. That's where they learned how to keep balance. They also strategically created the flood disasters and wall to barricade the continent, helping preserve the natural balancing elements and the Ice beyond the wall.

The most direct First Men decedents act as the protectors and singers--(Starks at the Wall/Winterfell) (Crannogmen at the Neck) (Hightowers-Daynes-Rhoynar loyal Dornish in the south) (Whents-Green Men at Harrenhall/God's Eye/IoF). They're all just so far removed, outside an inner circle that still is knowledgable (OoGM, Howland for example), they need to be re-acclimated. They need to learn to "sing the song" like the children did.

Random point--I think the Lannisters have far more mystery behind them bc even if they have Andal blood, it came from adventurers before the actual invasion and Lann is said to be of First Men descent. It's like their own history is tricking them as much as they can swindle the realm.

I think the Others are actually just a different species (prehistorically peaceful and mystical) in the far north that has been thrown in a tizzy because of the Night's King (An asshole renegade FM) who went against all sides, and has assembled an other & wight army over the millennia beginning after the wall was built. The wall was originally built to ward off the fire coming from the east.

I'm up in the air on Bloodraven and Coldhands though. They could be tricking the crannogmen and trying to use Bran for their own purposes. Coldhands could be the Night's King and Bran may need to overtake BR somehow. I could then see him jacking into the weirweb and witnessing the pact to understand what must be done. Bran could jack into to that moment, Howland's visit, Addam's (there was something afoot with him), and R+L. Maybe it's actually the likes of BR, Mel, NK on the same side.

Also, to slightly sidetrack: At the ToJ..."Ser Willem is a good man and true"...the Whent/Dayne/Hightower connection seems way interesting. Dayne, Hightower, Stark, Reed all trace back to the First Men but not so much with Darry. The oldest houses are all represented there and then Willem Darry is mentioned who ends up raising Dany till 5 (Which I think is honestly in Starfall or Oldtown, not Braavos). I'll wait to dive into all of that however

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Pintura_Trois_Freres.jpg

[barristan-b]

Hi guys. Brilliant contributions all, well done. Blowing my mind. I'm sorry I don't have time right now to reply to anyone who addressed me directly, but I will get back soon.

Just wanted to add, I think the thread should spread in whatever direction people want. Fowlers, Night's King, ToJ, Rhoynish, Prince Garin, God's Eye conspiracy, it's all good. In fact, some of it is amazing. I truley believe the Green Men arc will be important in the wind-up of these genius novels so we might well see a lot of different strands converge. I still consider the thread an exploration, but I'm confident that, through some of the excellent insights that have been added by you people, a coherent theory will start to emerge before long. So please, keep it up.

Great thread man. I found this on a google Green Men search. Put something above this post as well.

[Archmaester Drew]

Fascinating! I had caught the Coldhands connection, but didn't get much feedback when I posted a thread about it... :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115874-coldhands-nights-watch-or-green-man-or-both/?hl=coldhands

Edit: added link.

[Mithras]

I think the Green Men are not immortal. Due to strong association with magic, probably the Green Men cannot reproduce, which is a popular idea especially after TWOIAF. So, they must be keeping their numbers somehow.

“My old ma used to say that giant bats flew out from Harrenhal on moonless nights, to carry bad children to Mad Danelle for her cookpots.

He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling.

It seems that some skinchangers used giant bats. I think the Green Men keep their numbers by stealing children. Perhaps they healed Daemon and turned him into a Green Man. He might be still alive.

[Fire Eater]

I think the Green Men are not immortal. Due to strong association with magic, probably the Green Men cannot reproduce, which is a popular idea especially after TWOIAF. So, they must be keeping their numbers somehow.

“My old ma used to say that giant bats flew out from Harrenhal on moonless nights, to carry bad children to Mad Danelle for her cookpots.

He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling.

It seems that some skinchangers used giant bats. I think the Green Men keep their numbers by stealing children. Perhaps they healed Daemon and turned him into a Green Man. He might be still alive.

Or they could be like the Undying. The Undying drink shade of the evening which is made from the leaves of the blue trees outside their building. The Green Men could drink a similar concotion made from weirwoods (which are immortal) leaves or sap to preserve themselves.

The places he [Viserys] talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isles of Faces

I think Daemon is still alive after what Ran told us. If Dany makes Harrenhal her HQ, then I think she would visit the Isle of Faces. Especially since it is among the places in Westeros mentioned in her first POV that I think she will definitely see. It would be an interesting meeting with her ancestor. I wonder if Daemon would mention if there is another Targaryen alive to her? Would the Green Men mention that Rhaegar visited with Lyanna for their wedding ceremony?

[Fire Eater]

The Isle of Faces could also be akin to Avalon of Arthurian legend which was derived from Ynys Avallach, the Isle of the Apples, the spiritual center of the Celtic religion. Avalon was supposedly the home of a sacred tree sprouted by Joseph of Arimathea like the sacred heart trees of the Isle of Faces. The island was home to a group of Celtic priestesses renowned for their ability to turn into animals, to heal the incurable and prophesy the future according to the Gaulish Pomponius Mela. The Green Men can likely warg, heal (such as the wounds of Daemon) and likely prophesy akin to green dreams.

According to Isidore of Seville in Etymologiae XIV 6.8 "Fortunatae Insulae," Avalon "gets its name from the fact that it produces all things of itself; the fields there have no need of the ploughs of the farmers and all cultivation is lacking except what nature provides. Of its own accord it produces grain and grapes, and apple trees grow in its woods from the close-clipped grass. The ground of its own accord produces everything instead of merely grass, and people live there a hundred years or more."

The Green Men likely do live for extended periods of time thanks to the weirwoods, and the island likely provides the food needed for them given none of them are described visiting the shores to obtain foodstuffs or their sight would be common, and HR had to subsist on something through an entire winter on that island without having gone to shore.

One thing I would like to add is in Avalon, a mortally wounded King Arthur was sent there to have his wounds healed and his sword, Excalibur, was thrown into the lake. Daemon, who was king by virtue of his marriage to Queen Rhaenyra, and his sword, Dark Sister, fell into the God's Eye could be the mortally wounded king residing there.

[LmL]

I haven't seen anyone post this yet, so I'll just quote directly from TWOIAF:

Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the first man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god.

There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he has green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.)

<...>

"Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us.

It then goes on to further associate him with fertility - making maidens or even barren women pregnant, teaching people how to farm, scattering seeds everywhere, etc. you get the idea.

Then this last bit:

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshipers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

I think there appears to be a connection between Garth and the Order of the Green Men.

[Lord Varys]

Possibly the best hint towards the Green Men in TWoIaF is to be found in the section on Garth Greenhand, when his depictions are discussed. One way to portray him is with green skin and antlers, just as the Green Men are supposed to have.

Considering that some versions of the Garth story make him the First Man, it is not impossible to assume that part (or all) or the traditions and magics of the Green Men go back to the ancient First Men prior to them taking the old gods of the Children, rather than to Children traditions (although I'd assume that the present-day Green Men would be a sort of fusion between Children and First Men traditions).

There seems to be a clear difference between greenseers and Green Men, and whatever magics the Green Men could actually make them immortal or live centuries or millennia.

George has long ago said that the Green Men will make an appearance, and what would be better than to make one of the Green Men/their leader a familiar face from history (i.e. Daemon Targaryen) rather than some random dude? It has already happened with Bloodraven, but he has actually be expected by many - whereas Daemon the Green Man would come as a much bigger surprise.

I really don't think a POV has to go to the Isle of Faces, I think the Green Men will reveal themselves when the time is right. They could become as crucial in the War for the Dawn as everything Bran is doing, perhaps even more so (especially if the Others come down south, which they should).

Lucifer means Lightbringer,

thanks for the quote.

[LmL]

This may seem a tad tangential, but I think it relates because I happen to think Garth the Green was the original sacrifice to bring the spring, which had to do with ending the Long Night. Thus I think he is connected to Lightbringer and the Last Hero. The last hero has 12 companions; Garth has 12 children (if you count the twins as one, like the constellation Gemini). There are more connections between Azor Ahai and Garth, but check this out from a Brienne chapter from AFFC, and keeping in mind she is carrying Oathkeeper, which used to be Ice (and therefore possibly the old Lightbringer):

"Why would I lie?" She asked him. "Every place has it's local heroes. Where I come from the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, The Perfect Knight."

"Ser gall-a-who of what? Never heard of him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"

Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She have him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her. Nor any shield withstand her kiss.

Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.

Crabb thought that was hilarious. "Ah ha ha the Perfect Knight, ah the perfect fool it sounds like. What's the point of having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?"

"Honor," she said. "The point is honor."

That only made him laugh the louder. "Ah ha ha Ser Clarence Crabb would have wiped his hairy ass with your perfect knight, m'lady. If they'd ever have met, there'd be only more bloody head sitting on the shelf at The Whispers, if you ask me. 'I should have used the magic sword!' He'd be saying to all the other heads. 'I should have used the bloody sword!'"

Brienne could not help but smile. "Perhaps," she said. "But Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe 8 feet tall, mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say.

At the end of their journey to the whispers, she hears the heads and thinks of this story - and has Pod Payne go get Oathkeeper, which she then uses to kill people in front of a Weirwood tree.

Right before Brienne launches into this story about a magic sword wielding hero, someone mentions a Great Lord of legend named Lord Lucifer. Lucifer is also translated as "Morningstar" and " Lightbringer," while Tarth is the site of Evenfall Hall and the lord named the "Evenstar." The Morningstar and the Evenstar are actually both references to Venus, because every 500 days Venus switches from being brightest star before dawn to being the brightest star right after sunset. Our famous red comet, which symbolizes Lightbringer amongst other things, is playing the role of Morningstar and Evenstar in the books (this is because Venus and the comet both orbit the sun inside of earths orbit). Dany first sees it as the first star in the night on the night her dragons hatched.

The point of all that is that this story is actually talking about Azor Ahai and Lightbringer, through the guise of Ser Galladon. The fact that he is talked about as un-sheathing his magic sword against a giant man on an aurochs is interesting, because the sacrificial bull is a big part of the Mithras story, from which George borrows heavily to create Jon Snow's story as well as Lightbringer and Azor Ahai. Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, died when Jon was born, of course. The Corn King / white bull are always sacrifices to bring the spring, and I see above that someone pointed out one of the green man myths has him slaying dragons. That fits - Azor Ahai was a warrior of fire, and Garth seems to have opposed him, and sacrificed himself. This recalls the idea that blood sacrifice was necessary to make the Pact on the Isle of Faces.

I'm also entertaining the idea that the pact also involved warding Westeros from Dragons, with the pact being finally broken by all the Weirwoods Black Harren cut down to make Harrenhall. Hence Aegon's invasion the day that castle was built.

[LmL]

(double post, whoops)

[LmL]

Lucifer means Lightbringer,

thanks for the quote.

No problem Lord Varys, I enjoyed reading over this terrific thread and was excited to share that, since no one had yet. Definitely some big hints there.

Always enjoy your posts, btw. :)

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'd assume that the Green Men actually know what sort of magic the Others may use to bring the cold/change the seasons. After all, whatever Garth was supposed to be doing via divine powers (or blood magic) is to influence the climate/whether and bring the spring. Whatever the Others did seems to be a twisted form of that magic, or a sort of reverse spell (don't bring warmth and sun but cold and death).

Back when the Pact was made and the Green Men founded the seasons should still have been normal, which means the Green Men were already around during the Long Night. There is a chance, I think, that the creator of the Others/First Other (if they are artificially created ice magic creatures) could have been a rogue Green Man, perhaps a Child of the Forest who was not actually happy with the whole situation. On the other hand, the Green Men actually would have been the champions of Children/First Men coexistence, being founded after the Pact.

[LmL]

Coldhands leaps to mind here, riding his elk. Seems like an undead servant of the children.. Or he could be dead Garth, post sacrifice, or one of the original green men, who may have been one of the a Last Hero's companions.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, I assume Coldhands is a brother of the NW turned wight, who was subsequently cut off from the thrall of the Others, perhaps by using skinchanging abilities. Some people have suggested that the Others control the wights via skinchanging (or using a similar magical ability). Then Bloodraven could be controlling Coldhands and speaking through him.

The other option I'd prefer is that Coldhands actually regained his self after the connection to the Others was severed, and is now a sort of 'independent wight' in the service of Bloodraven.

[Mithras]

Well, I'd assume that the Green Men actually know what sort of magic the Others may use to bring the cold/change the seasons.

The old stories reveal uncertainty whether the Others come when it is cold or that it becomes cold when they appear, during snowstorms or mist and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge at night; although once again some stories claim that their coming brings the night.

I have a problem with the bolded. Common speculation leads us to the idea that the Others change the seasons, bring the cold and invade the Realm. However, the old tales and the sources Sam found were not sure whether the Others bring the cold, or the cold happens for some reason and the Others come with it. Therefore, I think the truth is more likely that the Others do not bring the cold, but exploit it. That would do well with TWOIAF themes that all the corruption seems to be related to the failures of humans and the Others are no more special than dozens of inhumane races that thrive in specific conditions and generally enemy to the humans.

[Lord Varys]

I've a fixed view on this. I think the Others are not a part of the natural order of things, but artificially created magical creatures, who (apparently) have to recruit the offspring of other species into their rank (Craster's children). If that's the case - and ASoS strongly hints at that - then it also very likely that the freak seasons were actually caused by the first Other or by the person/beings who created the Others. We know that the seasons supposedly were normal once, and only changed in the very ancient past.

But only if the freak seasons were actually part of the natural order of things could we assume that the Others may have evolved in a sort of natural process, adapting to the conditions in the very long winters in the utmost north. But nothing suggests that the conditions were as bad up there as they are now during the long winters.

If there was a natural order to the freak seasons, the Others could also not really exploit the long winters, as spring would inevitably be followed by spring, resulting in the Others retreating again. There would be no need for a War for the Dawn. Just go settle on the Summer Isles or in Sothoryos and wait for the next spring.

The old accounts not being sure whether the Others come with the cold or bring the cold does not prove anything. But the Prologue of AGoT makes it pretty clear that the Others bring the cold. It is summer in that chapter, even behind the Wall. The Wall has wept when Ser Waymar set out, and they are only a few days away from the Wall. And yet it gets horribly cold when the Others come. Not sure why we should assume that this was due to some sudden change of weather.

[LmL]

Double post. Board is screwy.

[LmL]

Post error: not my fault. Blaming the board screwiness.