Tywin the Commander

[Ramsay Gimp]

The belief that Tywin Lannister is an "overrated" military strategist is a common one on this board. Ditto for the claim that he is skilled in politics, but only competent/mediocre in the field.

But a close look at Tywin's military career puts the lie to those claims, especially now that The World of Ice and Fire has revealed the details of the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion. Tywin actually belongs in the top tier of military commanders in ASOIAF. Here I will examine his decisions and actions against the Reynes/Tarbecks and during the War of 5 Kings, focusing exclusively on the military aspect and omitting anything that could be construed as "just politics"

Part 1: The Lion Awakes

*Warning: World of Ice and Fire spoilers follow

In the war against his father's treasonous bannermen, the young Tywin showed remarkable boldness, resourcefulness and ingenuity. We now know that the campaign was not just a matter of two sieges

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

In late 261, Tywin sent ravens demanding the Reynes and Tarbecks come to court. He knew they wouldn’t come, which was an excuse for war. They renounced their fealty to the Lannisters and war began. Tywin rode with 500 horse and 3000 men at arms, without Tytos’ leave.

He was joined by Brax and other vassals. The Lannisters were too quick for help to come to the Tarbecks. Walderran was taken alive, his son with his first wife killed in battle, and his sons with his second wife captured. Walderran told Tywin that he was worth a lot as a ransom, what was the price? Tywin responded with, “with our own gold?”

Tywin baits the Reynes and Tarbecks instead of waiting for them to choose the timing of their next inevitable treason. Then, rather than calling all his banners, which would give his foes time to prepare, Tywin rides with a small but swift force and smashes the Tarbecks in the field. His method of confronting enemies individually before they can unite against him will come up again in the War of 5 Kings.

So Tywin had Tarbeck and his sons beheaded along with all of the Tarbecks there, and went to Tarbeck Hall with their heads on poles. Tywin sent Kevan to negotiate their surrender, but she laughed, thinking her defenses were strong. Some in the hall might have been bribed, because after the Lannisters stormed Tarbeck Hall, the fighting lasted less than an hour, and a gate was opened from the inside (another was broken down from the outside too IIRC).

Ellyn was hanged from the highest window of Tarbeck Hall. Her son Tion died at the age of 19, the same age as Tywin. Tywin sent the daughters to the Silent Sisters. It’s not known if he took their tongues out prior to sending them. Rohanne was the mother to the last Lord Tarbeck, who was three years old at the time. It was rumored that he became a bard across the Narrow Sea, but more likely is that he was thrown down a well by Ser Amory Lorch.

Tywin's execution of the captured Tarbecks was a ruthless but necessary example, both to his immediate enemies and to any future Houses that may consider rebellion against Casterly Rock. Still, he attempts to save unnecessary bloodshed and offers Ellyn Tarbeck (Reyne by birth) a way out. She refuses. The siege of Tarbeck hall could have been expected to take a long time, or cause heavy casualties for Tywin's small force. But somehow he finds a way to quickly gain entry and wipe out the defenders before the Reynes arrive. Bribery may not be very honorable, but Tywin uses all the resources at his disposal, like a good commander should. Interestingly, he then spares the female Tarbecks (except Ellyn), which strongly suggests that he does not value brutality for its own sake.

Tarbeck Hall was put to the torch. The Red Lion arrived with his forces and saw the flames, knowing he was too late. He had less than a quarter of his strength, and his men were driven too hard. Tywin outnumbered the Red Lion’s men either three or five to one, according to different reports. The Red Lion ordered his army to charge. If he had more heavy horse, he might have gotten to Tywin, but he did not. Tywin led the counterattack, and the Red Lion fled. He was injured by a crossbow bolt in the back, and had to leave half of his men for dead.

The Reynes fall into Tywin's trap, rushing with a small portion of their strength in a futile effort to save their allies. Tywin's host is no doubt prepared for their arrival, and the field of battle is one of his choosing. I'm sure some will try to disparage this victory since Tywin had the numbers advantage, but they miss the point: the Lannisters heavily outnumbered the Reynes here because of Tywin's successful planning

The Lannisters arrived at Castamere, which was a tougher nut to crack. The Reynes were near as rich as them, and when the gold in their mines gave out, they became chambers, ballrooms, and other rooms. 9/10 of Castamere was underground...Castamere’s defenses were such that two knights could hold the entry tunnel against thousands of men, as it was so narrow. So Reynard sent terms to Tywin, telling him to pardon them and give them his brothers as hostages. Tywin did not respond.

Tywin commanded the mines be sealed. He then dammed the stream/lake (where Castamere gets its name), and had it diverted to the mine entrance, filling it with water. Not a person emerged, though screams were reported. No one has reopened the mines since, and the halls and keeps were put to torch.

Tywin finds a way to "crack" Castamere without losing any men, showing even more resourcefulness than he did at Tabreck hall.

The skill and ruthless effectiveness Tywin demonstrated in the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion would be impressive for any commander, let alone a teenager on his first campaign. I think his performance here should be enough to establish Tywin as a very skilled wartime leader, but if it sparks a good discussion I will follow up with a post about his performance in the War of 5 Kings....

[JonBranRickon]

With all that, he never defeated a 14 year old. So I suppose he'sbeing compared to Robb.

[Ramsay Gimp]

With all that, he never defeated a 14 year old. So I suppose he being compared to Robb.

Arguably, yes he did. But I'd rather focus on the info here and not get in to the Robb vs. Tywin argument yet. There will be plenty of time for that later.

[Boarsbane]

I agree, he often gets a lot of flak for the mistakes of his underlings. I see people constantly say how Robb Stark was humiliating him, yet Robb and Tywin never once meet in the field. Putting Jaime in charge of an army probably wasn't a great idea, although Jaime does have initial success his bold and reckless nature eventually costs them and he gets most of the first host slaughtered. I am not entirely sure if Stafford was his choice to command the third host, I imagine he simply had Stafford gather the host but had no intention of letting him lead it but anyways as we know Robb's magic wolf finds the secret path the Westermen somehow never noticed and Stafford's host gets slaughtered. I will be the first one to call Stafford a moron for not posting sentries, but he should of been safe in the Westerlands.

Now on the other hand Robb Stark is often considered a military mastermind, and Roose's loss at the Green Fork is often written off as Roose already playing both sides. Well if Tywin is going to get blamed for Stafford's and Jaime's stupidity, why shouldn't Robb be blamed for Roose's treachery? Robb most certainly gave Roose the large majority of his Northern forces, and Roose intentionally got many of them killed. If one commander is responsible for the actions of his subordinates why isn't the other?

His ability to plan a war is perfect. Though once again fucked up by his own family. He wants to catch Ned so it never has to come to pitched battle with the Northern forces, he still asserts the Lannisters can't be messed with but doesn't have to fight a costly war. Well Jaime injures Ned and now Ned can't ride out to capture Gregor. Gregor's raids had a second purpose though, Edmure split his forces trying to defend every stretch of land, I imagine that is why Jaime is able to smash them so soundly at the Golden Tooth and roll all the way to Riverrun. Once again though Jaime fucks things up.

[Trigger Warning]

With all that, he never defeated a 14 year old. So I suppose he being compared to Robb.

Well they never met in the field at a pitched battle. Robb pulled off an incredibly risky plan in the opening of the campaign that hinged on Jaime fucking up in a major way, he then finds a previously unknown path to get his army past the ancient defence of the Westerlands unseen and proceeds to fuck up a Lannister host being raised by another incompetent man.

One mistake could have been not pursuing at the battle of the Green Fork, but we know that Roose withdrew in good order. This pursuit and engagement could have put the Lannisters in an even worse position considering what had happened to Jaime. Tywin then withdraws to a strong position and bides his time, rebuilding Lannister strength and waiting for the moment to strike. Tywin has many enemies in the field, he can't risk giving open battle with his diminished strength whilst Renly marches and Robb waits at Riverrun and if he does try and draw them out he risks losing Harrenhal.

I really don't think much of this reflects badly on Tywin as a commander, if anything it shows that Robb is a good commander that can see an opening and move against it (despite the huge risk). Having a good commander and a wild card at that fuck up the plans of their enemy doesn't automatically make their enemy a bad commander. You could argue that Edmure beat him but Tywin withdrew to lift the siege of King's Landing so that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on him either, or you could say that he had Robb assassinated because he couldn't beat him in the field. Well we know Tywin is ruthless and cunning, if he sees the opportunity to remove a dangerous foe with minimal loss he's going to take it. It doesn't mean it was his only option especially with the Tyrell strength added to his.

Personally I think most of the criticism levied on Tywin is based on him being a ruthless and unpleasant man that people don't like.

EDIT: On the Jaime note, I don't think his huge fuck up was that foreseeable. Being arrogant and a bit rash isn't necessarily an indicator that they'll commit such a huge military blunder and Stafford as foolish as he was for not posting pickets was probably just relying on the thousands of years of history that the Westerman know in other words assuming that if the enemy entered the Westerlands they'd receive word from the Golden Tooth. He probably wouldn't command after the host was mustered and reached the Riverlands anyway.

[Red Tiger]

You know what bothers me.

Robb never loses a battle when he's in command and when his subcommanders lose, Robb is still considered undefeated.

Tywin never actually loses a battle when HE's in command and when Stafford Lannister, Gregor Clegane or somebody else fucks up, Tywin lost.

Talk about a double standard.

[UtherSnow]

Tywin revelled in glory. His record speaks for itself. He takes advantage of situations, and works them to his cause. He's known to lead from the rear, where he can see the pieces in play. He is known to steal other people's thunder though.

To say he's overrated isn't quite it. Tywin is often underestimated. Entirely different things.

[Sir Lee knot]

Tywin is good but I still hold that he's not as good as Robb. In a battle with equal terrain and numbers I think Robb wins 6 out of 10 times. I'd say Tywin and Stannis are probably equals in the field.

[drakemunky]

He don't have a psychopathic muscleman under his control for nothing. They were both taken out around the same time too.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Meh. Tywin throws a good suckerpunch, is ruthless and a competent commander. No less, but no more either. Apart from convincing his father's bannermen to follow him, it's standard fare, and that's a political affair.

What it actually tells me is that Tywin has forgotten the cruelty is only a tool, and the appearance of mercy is often more useful.

[JonBranRickon]

One could also make the argument that the Tarbeck-Reyne battle really never was. He beat them to the punch (before they were ever ready). Tha's not to say his strategy was not brilliant, he effectively quelled the rebelion before it started.

Lann the Clever as clever as ever.

[The Fallen]

Tywin lost at the fords, where he commanded.

As far as the Tarbecks and Reynes, without more information I don't think we can presume that Tywin baited the Red Lion into attacking him prematurely. The whole OP can be called an assumption.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

he was outsmarted by robb and defeated by Edmure at the battle of the fords. he's overrated in my opinion as a commander but as a manipulator and politician he's the best.

[Ramsay Gimp]

As far as the Tarbecks and Reynes, without more information I don't think we can presume that Tywin baited the Red Lion into attacking him prematurely. The whole OP can be called an assumption.

Huh? He attacked their ally, causing Lord Reyne to rush to battle without his full strength. How else would you interpret "the Red lion realized he was too late", if not responding to Tywin?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Apart from convincing his father's bannermen to follow him, it's standard fare, and that's a political affair.

It wasn't really standard. Tywin managed to prevent his enemies from joining forces, won two pitched battles against more experienced commanders, and took two strong castles that shouldn't have been so easy to bring down. He also didn't have anywhere near all of his father's bannmern - the Lannisters did all this with 3,500 men

[aryagonnakill#2]

My reason for thinking Tywin is over rated is simply because I think the huge events that happened are the only reason he won, and he had no way of predicting these events. The Ironborn, Lysa not bringing the Vale in, Renly being magically assassinated. My only real reason for thinking Tywin is over rated is that he should have lost, he got really really lucky and I think his original decision to invade was a really terrible 1. Past that, he was a terrible father, and that makes him a bad lord imo.

[Ramsay Gimp]

My reason for thinking Tywin is over rated is simply because I think the huge events that happened are the only reason he won, and he had no way of predicting these events. The Ironborn, Lysa not bringing the Vale in, Renly being magically assassinated. My only real reason for thinking Tywin is over rated is that he should have lost, he got really really lucky and I think his original decision to invade was a really terrible 1. Past that, he was a terrible father, and that makes him a bad lord imo.

Tywin being lucky does not equate to him being overrated. He took advantage of his lucky breaks, and managed to avoid making any fatal mistakes when things were going bad

Not to mention that he had some very unlucky breaks as well: Joffrey killing Ned, Renly crowning himself, and Robb finding a secret path around the Golden Tooth

[Boarsbane]

Past that, he was a terrible father, and that makes him a bad lord imo.

What does that have to do with Tywin as a commander?

[aryagonnakill#2]

What does that have to do with Tywin as a commander?

I said a bad lord, not a bad commander.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Meh. Tywin throws a good suckerpunch, is ruthless and a competent commander. No less, but no more either. Apart from convincing his father's bannermen to follow him, it's standard fare, and that's a political affair.

What it actually tells me is that Tywin has forgotten the cruelty is only a tool, and the appearance of mercy is often more useful.

Yes to all this.Also, he convinced his father's bannermen to follow him against an enemy that was stealing land from many of them, which can't be all that hard.

Tywin's MO is always to beat his enemies with sheer numbers or when it's impossible, use unspeakable treachery. All clearly shows a commander that never had to fight a batle in inferior numbers and has never shown to be particularly creative or brave. He's not terrible, like Stafford, but not particularly brilliant either.