Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[ShadowCat Rivers]

And Lysa sure does splash out on clothes and jewelry, doesn't she! Being the wife of a Lord Paramount, and one who was a King's Hand, I'm sure she can afford it, but it's an interesting contrast to Cat, who is as high up in the aristocracy as her sister but seems to prefer plainer, more practical clothing (just like Arya, in fact). No, I don't believe that the Starks are poor; rather, I think Cat does not like to dress up and would rather wear practical, comfortable clothes.

This is one of the rare times (or is it the only one?) that Catelyn informs us of what she is wearing: "plain grey wool with a silvered belt". It is done mainly to highlight the contrast to Lysa's showing off.

I think that Catelyn is not just being practical and/or wants to be comfortable in her dresses. It's also that clothes do convey a message, speak of our self image or, more accurately, of the image that we want others to have about us. Lysa wants to be desired; Cat wants to be listened to, to be taken seriously. In a "modern" analogy, Cat dresses in the classic executive style, "dark color tailleurs", while I imagine Lysa dressed up in extravagant "celebrity style".

--------------------------------

Catelyn VIII will be up tomorrow until Friday (I hope).

Really, really sorry for the delay :(

[ShadowCat Rivers]

AGOT, Catelyn VIII: The Mentor

Summary

Catelyn arrives at Moat Cailin accompanied by the Blackfish and the Manderly “boys”. There she meets Robb, who has assumed the role of battle commander. Catelyn realizes that it is a fait accompli and that she needs to help him succeed in this role, as it’s a matter of life and death for all of them.

Observations

• Introduction of Lord Too Fat To Sit A Horse: a point is made that Wyman Manderly is a man who (unlike me…) keeps his promises ;)
  
• “We’ll shove our swords up Tywin Lannister’s bunghole soon enough, begging your pardons”: the Greatjon would make great friends with Shitmouth.
  

• Cat the Northerner
  

“Gods have mercy,” Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. “This is Moat Cailin? It’s no more than a-”

“-death trap,” Catelyn finished. “I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. The three surviving towers command the causeway from all sides, and any enemy must pass between them. The bogs here are impenetrable, full of quicksands and suckholes and teeming with snakes. To assault any of the towers, an army would need to wade through waist-deep black muck, cross a moat full of lizard-lions, and scale walls slimy with moss, all the while exposing themselves to fire from archers in the other towers.” She gave her uncle a grim smile. “And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood.”

Ser Brynden chuckled. “Remind me not to linger here. Last I looked, I was southron myself.”

Brynden’s reaction to Cat’s fierce defense of the Moat Cailin’s repute is just gold…

But the point made here is that Catelyn has taken the Stark identity in more than name. And her interaction with Grey Wind gets a more than a simple mention. After Summer saved Bran and her own life, Cat has a special affection for the direwolves. For Grey Wind, it seems that Cat is a member of the pack.

Analysis

Strategy and the politics of war form the core of the chapter, peppered with some info and impressions on places and characters on the background. The basic point --what, in the end, dooms the Stark campaign-- is made clear early on: Robb is only fifteen.

Robb must be fast-tracked into leadership whether he’s ready or not, so Catelyn takes on the role of the Mentor and Counselor. This role (often in conflict with the feelings and emotions of the Mother) will determine Catelyn’s relationship with Robb and much of her arc from now on.

Much and more can be discussed about Cat’s & Robb’s relationship. Not only it’s a rarity in fantasy but it’s an interesting and difficult one by its very nature: the teenage boy who seeks to “man up”... It has the potential to become awkward and embarrassing and often, the line that separates the necessary intervention from the undue parental overprotection becomes very thin. Catelyn is well aware of this problem and navigates the situation in a really commendable way (in a telling contrast with Lysa’s parenting style).

So, she forbids herself of public display of motherly emotions:

Catelyn wanted to run to him, to kiss his sweet brow, to wrap him in her arms and hold him so tightly that he would never come to harm... but here in front of his lords, she dared not. He was playing a man’s part now, and she would not take that away from him. So she held herself at the far end of the basalt slab they were using for a table.

And she is well concerned of the way she must voice her objections and her advice:

It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? “Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known.”

Robb grinned. “Grey Wind ate two of his fingers, and he laughed about it. So you agree, then?”

“Your father is not fearless,” Catelyn pointed out. “He is brave, but that is very different.”

(A man can only be brave when he is afraid, as Ned said in the very first Bran’s chapter, only phrased differently here by Cat.)

All in all, Robb seems to be well prepared and ready enough (as much as a boy of fifteen can be) as a battle strategist --Cat repeatedly notices how much he reminds her of Ned-- but he really needs help in the politics of war. There’s here Cat’s talents are invaluable.

What is really at stake?

“I do not know, Robb. What I do know is that you have no choice. If you go to King’s Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. Then the queen, with that much less to fear, can do as she likes with her prisoners. Our best hope, our only true hope, is that you can defeat the foe in the field. If you should chance to take Lord Tywin or the Kingslayer captive, why then a trade might very well be possible, but that is not the heart of it. So long as you have power enough that they must fear you, Ned and your sister should be safe. Cersei is wise enough to know that she may need them to make her peace, should the fighting go against her.”

“What if the fighting doesn’t go against her?” Robb asked. “What if it goes against us?”

Catelyn took his hand. “Robb, I will not soften the truth for you. If you lose, there is no hope for any of us. They say there is naught but stone at the heart of Casterly Rock. Remember the fate of Rhaegar’s children.”

This is something to keep in mind for a variety of reasons:

• Cat’s place is really at Robb’s side. If they lose, they are all going to face the consequences; the younger boys won’t be spared either. So she must help Robb win for their sake, too.
  
• Furthermore, it highlights the essence of the westerosi “pissing contest”. So long as you have power enough is the crux of the issue; one must always be ready to prove so.
  
• On the other hand, it contradicts with Cat’s later position in favor of surrender. So do they have a choice or no?
  

On the liege – bannermen relationship

Catelyn sighed. “I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. The day will come when you need them to respect you, even fear you a little. Laughter is poison to fear. I will not do that to you, much as I might wish to keep you safe.”

Catelyn’s opinion on the role of fear –and, remarkably, of laughter- brings to mind Tywin Lannister, rather than Ned who inspired the famous now “I will make them love me”. However, I believe that Cat is right in this one. Fear alone won’t do the trick, but it will refrain some whom you’ll never win no matter what (as lady Dustin said, she did respond in Robb’s call even reluctantly, and sent men –as few as she dared- for fear of Winterfell’s wrath).

“Be certain,” Catelyn told her son, “or go home and take up that wooden sword again. You cannot afford to seem indecisive in front of men like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark. Make no mistake, Robb-these are your bannermen, not your friends. You named yourself battle commander. Command.”

This one is also centered in making clear “who is the boss”.

It seems that at this point, Cat is more concerned in establishing a clear order of command within the Northern army, which is necessary given Robb’s age and that the status quo is often challenged in times of crisis.

The chapter ends with a very touching and human note that, in a few lines, describes what Catelyn does in the most part of three books:

Catelyn had fought to keep herself strong, for Ned’s sake and for this stubborn brave son of theirs. She had put despair and fear aside, as if they were garments she did not choose to wear... but now she saw that she had donned them after all.

“I am not going to Winterfell,” she heard herself say, surprised at the sudden rush of tears that blurred her vision. “My father may be dying behind the walls of Riverrun. My brother is surrounded by foes. I must go to them.”

Also, the fact that she allows herself to break in front of Robb is an indirect compliment to her son: he’s deemed mature, ready and strong enough to bear the hard truth that his mother is only a human and just like him, she fears and despairs. They are left in a somewhat more equal ground.

[BearQueen87]

AGOT, Catelyn VIII: The Mentor

Very nice job ShadowCat Rivers! I love the title you gave this one. Cat really shines in this chapter.

But the point made here is that Catelyn has taken the Stark identity in more than name. And her interaction with Grey Wind gets a more than a simple mention. After Summer saved Bran and her own life, Cat has a special affection for the direwolves. For Grey Wind, it seems that Cat is a member of the pack.

She's Mama Wolf. The interaction between Cat and Grey Wind reminds of how cubs play with their mothers in the wild AND it's how the dragons often play with Dany in Clash and Storm, especially the nipping, which is something Drogon does to Dany.

Much and more can be discussed about Cat’s & Robb’s relationship. Not only it’s a rarity in fantasy but it’s an interesting and difficult one by its very nature: the teenage boy who seeks to “man up”... It has the potential to become awkward and embarrassing and often, the line that separates the necessary intervention from the undue parental overprotection becomes very thin. Catelyn is well aware of this problem and navigates the situation in a really commendable way (in a telling contrast with Lysa’s parenting style).

Love the Lysa comparison. Lysa would have sent Robin back to the Vale instantly, no matter what it would have looked like to his bannermen. Cat--guess what I'm going to say---THINKS about all the outcomes. She knows what it would mean if she packed Robb off to Winterfell. He has to lead someday, so even though Cat's frightened for him, she knows this is the path he's chosen.

All in all, Robb seems to be well prepared and ready enough (as much as a boy of fifteen can be) as a battle strategist --Cat repeatedly notices how much he reminds her of Ned-- but he really needs help in the politics of war. There’s here Cat’s talents are invaluable.

I love that GRRM breaks the mold of what a "woman's role" is with this chapter. In other stories, you might expect that Cat is unskilled the ways of strategy or war or that she just blunders around doing what she wants without thinking (oh there's that word again) of the consequences and her main role in the story would be to wait around for the men to return, fretting and wringing her hands.

She's could be Cersei or Lysa, in other words. But Cat is very much a mix of Luwin and Ned here; she's skilled not only in war but in diplomacy...she knows that she can't outright correct Robb but rather she leads him, with a mother's touch as it were, to the right answer.

This one is also centered in making clear “who is the boss”.

It seems that at this point, Cat is more concerned in establishing a clear order of command within the Northern army, which is necessary given Robb’s age and that the status quo is often challenged in times of crisis.

And without knowing it, this is something that Robb has been challenged on. Back in Bran VI, the Greatjon and the others all challenge Robb because of his age. Cat has no way of knowing this--having not witnessed the events of Winterfell when the bannermen came--but by smarts she knows that this could be a problem for Robb.

Misc Notes

--It's interesting that Robb doesn't challenge his mother either. He readily accepts the help--Robb trusts Cat to help him as he would have trusted Ned or Luwin's help.

--You mention Cat's emotion coming through there at the end; Robb breaks first, earlier in the chapter when he also has "shinning eyes" and "the proud young lord melted away in an instant, and quick as that he was a child again..." Also, here Robb "looks to his mother for answers" as if this has happened--granted on a much small scale--before.

[David Selig]

This here and later events really show how sexist and plain stupid the system in Westeros is. Lords and knights would rather follow a 15 year old kid than his mother who's clearly more competent, experienced and has been Ned's closest adviser for years. For a 15-16 year old Robb did very well, but there is a reason we don't put such teens in charge anymore - they aren't mature enough.

[Tywin Manderly]

This here and later events really show how sexist and plain stupid the system in Westeros is. Lords and knights would rather follow a 15 year old kid than his mother who's clearly more competent, experienced and has been Ned's closest adviser for years. For a 15-16 year old Robb did very well, but there is a reason we don't put such teens in charge anymore - they aren't mature enough.

Amen!!

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Very nice job ShadowCat Rivers! I love the title you gave this one. Cat really shines in this chapter.

She's Mama Wolf. The interaction between Cat and Grey Wind reminds of how cubs play with their mothers in the wild AND it's how the dragons often play with Dany in Clash and Storm, especially the nipping, which is something Drogon does to Dany.

Love the Lysa comparison. Lysa would have sent Robin back to the Vale instantly, no matter what it would have looked like to his bannermen. Cat--guess what I'm going to say---THINKS about all the outcomes. She knows what it would mean if she packed Robb off to Winterfell. He has to lead someday, so even though Cat's frightened for him, she knows this is the path he's chosen.

I love that GRRM breaks the mold of what a "woman's role" is with this chapter. In other stories, you might expect that Cat is unskilled the ways of strategy or war or that she just blunders around doing what she wants without thinking (oh there's that word again) of the consequences and her main role in the story would be to wait around for the men to return, fretting and wringing her hands.

She's could be Cersei or Lysa, in other words. But Cat is very much a mix of Luwin and Ned here; she's skilled not only in war but in diplomacy...she knows that she can't outright correct Robb but rather she leads him, with a mother's touch as it were, to the right answer.

And without knowing it, this is something that Robb has been challenged on. Back in Bran VI, the Greatjon and the others all challenge Robb because of his age. Cat has no way of knowing this--having not witnessed the events of Winterfell when the bannermen came--but by smarts she knows that this could be a problem for Robb.

Misc Notes

--It's interesting that Robb doesn't challenge his mother either. He readily accepts the help--Robb trusts Cat to help him as he would have trusted Ned or Luwin's help.

--You mention Cat's emotion coming through there at the end; Robb breaks first, earlier in the chapter when he also has "shinning eyes" and "the proud young lord melted away in an instant, and quick as that he was a child again..." Also, here Robb "looks to his mother for answers" as if this has happened--granted on a much small scale--before.

Thank you very much BearQueen for the kind words. The Mama Wolf image is very apt for this scene, I think!

The comparison to Sweetrobin reminds me of Sansa's "Father and I have larger concerns" (Alayne II, AFFC). What is best for a young boy and what is best for a young lord is not always the same, more often than not the opposite is true.

(Not that LF gives a fig for young lord Robert's interests, but Lysa's parenting is harmful for both the boy and the lord).

The comparison to Cersei is super interesting and ties very well with your observation that Robb wellcomes his mother's help. Cersei is in this position in two different cases - with Joffrey she's lost control and with Tommen, she does everything to keep it at the expense of the boy's developement.

On the contrary, Cat does her best to make a leader out of her young son as soon as possible - the way she talks to him, presenting him the hard truth bare and unembellished resembles much to a "kill the boy" process.

On Greatjon's challenge, Robb passed that one quite easily. I think that Greatjon is the proverbial giant with a boy's heart (or better I should say mind) and his challenge was as plain and obvious as HotPie's and Lommy's challenge to Arya (both solved in a similar way). Challenges of the type that someone like Roose could pose at this stage, though, is not something that Robb could handle easily (or at all) without his mother's advice.

Finally,yes, Robb lets out his feelings too. He's all uncertain, affraid and self-doubting and this is a good thing IMO, it shows that he's aware of the severity of the situation and not full of himself. And, what's more, he is still a boy. I like this quote a lot:

My son is leading a host to war, she thought, still only half believing it. She was desperately afraid for him, and for Winterfell, yet she could not deny feeling a certain pride as well. A year ago he had been a boy. What was he now? she wondered.

A boy who can't live the life of a boy but has to take on adult responsibilities... this does not make him any older though, emotionally or physically, with all the consequences that go with it...

[Mithras]

This here and later events really show how sexist and plain stupid the system in Westeros is. Lords and knights would rather follow a 15 year old kid than his mother who's clearly more competent, experienced and has been Ned's closest adviser for years. For a 15-16 year old Robb did very well, but there is a reason we don't put such teens in charge anymore - they aren't mature enough.

Today's 15 year olds =/= Medieval 15 year olds.

We waste out precious times in schools.

[David Selig]

Today's 15 year olds =/= Medieval 15 year olds.

We waste out precious times in schools.

Yeah, if only kids toiled on the farm for 10 hours every day instead of going to school, they'd be so much smarter and mature, right?

BTW, in the real Middle Ages age of majority was usually 21 for inheriting titles, lands, etc. 15-16 year lords or kings ruling in their own right without regents were very rare.

[SeanF]

This here and later events really show how sexist and plain stupid the system in Westeros is. Lords and knights would rather follow a 15 year old kid than his mother who's clearly more competent, experienced and has been Ned's closest adviser for years. For a 15-16 year old Robb did very well, but there is a reason we don't put such teens in charge anymore - they aren't mature enough.

Legally, Catelyn is the one in charge. But, she dare not assert her authority over Robb, lest he lose face among is Bannermen.

[BearQueen87]

Today's 15 year olds =/= Medieval 15 year olds.

We waste out precious times in schools.

While I actually agree with your first part, as someone who spent probably 21 out of her 27 years in school in order to get as much eduction as possible I have to disagree with your second.

Legally, Catelyn is the one in charge. But, she dare not assert her authority over Robb, lest he lose face among is Bannermen.

Robb does ask if Cat will send him back to Winterfell, so this is something Robb recognizes as well.

[SeanF]

Shadow cat Rivers. That's a nice write-up.

Perhaps the discussion should wait for a later chapter, but I don't think Catelyn is advocating "surrender" later on. It's just that circumstances have changed. Ned can no longer be rescued, but Sansa and (she thinks) Arya can be. At the same time, Jaime is a prisoner, and they've won two battles. She thinks they can negotiate now, without losing face, or suffering further casualties.

Arya's disappearance means that peace was never possible, but Catelyn doesn't know this.

[SeanF]

I've always maintained that the Stark sisters' physical resemblance to their respective parents is misleading. Arya is the one who most resembles Cat in personality (as well as having quite a bit of Brandon and Lyanna's wolf blood). Sansa is much more like Ned; I think she got the inclination to courtesy from him. (Arya and Rickon got quite a bit of wolf blood, Robb has a touch; Sansa and Brandon are willful in their ways but don't have that hot temper and impetuousness - they incline more to Ned's melancholy.)

I'll post more on this later, when I have time, but this chapter is where it's brought home to Cat that Lysa has absolutely 0 sense of family, duty, and honor. Blackfish is right, it's a "festival of fools." And Lysa sure does splash out on clothes and jewelry, doesn't she! Being the wife of a Lord Paramount, and one who was a King's Hand, I'm sure she can afford it, but it's an interesting contrast to Cat, who is as high up in the aristocracy as her sister but seems to prefer plainer, more practical clothing (just like Arya, in fact). No, I don't believe that the Starks are poor; rather, I think Cat does not like to dress up and would rather wear practical, comfortable clothes.

It's one of Catelyn's qualities that she has little interest in creature comforts, or outward marks of status. She has no qualms about riding across country, and sleeping in a tent or inn.

If she were desperate (like Arya in ACOK) I'm sure she'd be able to fend for herself in the wild.

[Mithras]

While I actually agree with your first part, as someone who spent probably 21 out of her 27 years in school in order to get as much eduction as possible I have to disagree with your second.

We don't need no education :cool4:

[ShadowCat Rivers]

The thing is, Robb had a more than adequate education to cope up with his responsibilities. What he lacked was life experience and a certain less rush outlook that only comes with age...

SeanF

Thanks and you're right, it's better to discuss it when we have the specifics at hand. But if I remember correctly, she does ask Robb to bend the knee when they are at their lowest, having lost Winterfell, so... We'll see.

[LordStoneheart]

Excellent post, ShadowCat!

I remember when I first read the book, the part where Catelyn holds back from being Robb's mother in front of his men stuck out to me as something very touching. Catelyn is smart enough to know why she should hold back, and strong enough to do it. From praising Moat Cailin to interacting with Greywind, this is one of Catelyn's best chapters and shows how much of the North she has married. The interactions between Robb and Cat remind me of GRRM's quote about why he put her in the books in the first place; he wanted the mother around instead of left behind or dead. Not only is she onscreen, she's guiding the boy who is leading an army.

[Julia H.]

You are doing an excellent job here, all of you. :bowdown: I'm so sorry I haven't been able to actively participate in this thread recently.

She's Mama Wolf. The interaction between Cat and Grey Wind reminds of how cubs play with their mothers in the wild AND it's how the dragons often play with Dany in Clash and Storm, especially the nipping, which is something Drogon does to Dany.

Yes, Catelyn is definitely part of the wolf pack now. On the direwolf reread thread (sorry for advertising another reread here :) ) we have just analysed Catelyn III. There Summer saves Bran and Catelyn, and Catelyn finally accepts the direwolves, while she is also accepted into the pack by Summer, who licks the blood off her hands. I've suggested that the blood on Catelyn's hands may symbolize the fact that she will have to take responsible decisions from now on. In this chapter, Grey Wind confirms Catelyn's status as "Mother Wolf" (in fact, Grey Wind is the one who first notices her arrival), and her responsibility is also enormous.

Today's 15 year olds =/= Medieval 15 year olds.

We waste out precious times in schools.

Yeah, if only kids toiled on the farm for 10 hours every day instead of going to school, they'd be so much smarter and mature, right?

BTW, in the real Middle Ages age of majority was usually 21 for inheriting titles, lands, etc. 15-16 year lords or kings ruling in their own right without regents were very rare.

One of the greatest kings in the history of my country became a king at the age of fifteen. He was the second son of a lord, so not brought up especially to rule a country. He was extremely well-educated though (by scholars, BTW :P ) even though by the age of fifteen he had lost his father and his older brother and had spent some time in captivity. Since he was underage, his maternal uncle was named regent, but the young king had none of it, and he secured de facto power for himself within weeks. He was definitely not like the average fifteen-year-old you can see in high schools today. As I said, he became a great king, who (among other things) left a rich cultural legacy.

Excellent post, ShadowCat!

I remember when I first read the book, the part where Catelyn holds back from being Robb's mother in front of his men stuck out to me as something very touching. Catelyn is smart enough to know why she should hold back, and strong enough to do it. From praising Moat Cailin to interacting with Greywind, this is one of Catelyn's best chapters and shows how much of the North she has married. The interactions between Robb and Cat remind me of GRRM's quote about why he put her in the books in the first place; he wanted the mother around instead of left behind or dead. Not only is she onscreen, she's guiding the boy who is leading an army.

Making the decision not to run to her son, not to kiss him, not to wrap him in her arms and hold him tightly must have required amazing self-discipline – as a mother myself, I can fully appreciate what it must have meant to Catelyn. However, deciding not to send him home but let him become an adult man at the age of fifteen was a much bigger decision. If you are legally and morally in charge, responsibility is not something you can pass on to a minor. By giving Robb the command, Catelyn practically agreed to share the responsibility for all Robb's actions, for his success and his failure – but especially failure. A decision like this requires great courage on the part of a mother. She had to weigh Robb's momentary safety against Robb's future. Instinct urges a mother to protect her son at all costs. Yet, overprotection is also harmful, and a mother has to know when to step back and let her son grow up.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Sorry, I accidentally posted in the wrong thread.

[LordStoneheart]

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 59: Catelyn IX – The Boy, The Lord, and the Old Man

Summary

Robb’s army marches south towards the Twins, debating how to handle Lord Walder Frey’s dubious allegiance and intentions. Upon arriving at the castle, the northerners quickly realize that the castle cannot be taken by siege. Catelyn volunteers to go in and talk with Lord Frey. In the end, Catelyn negotiates with Walder and the Twins join Robb’s cause, allowing the northern army to march south.

Observations

· Cat the Northerner

You must save your strength for Robb, she told herself. He is the only one you can help. You must be as fierce and hard as the north, Catelyn Tully. You must be a Stark for true now, like your son.

Here we get not just Cat’s association to the north by what she does or says, but her own thoughts about what she needs to do for Robb, and that is become stronger like Ned, like Brandon, like the North.

· We get what I think might be the first instance of the theme of conflicting oaths in the form of Walder Frey

“You swore an oath to my father,” Catelyn reminded him.

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. “Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey’s the king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels. If I had the sense the gods gave a fish, I’d help the Lannisters boil you all.

“Why don’t you?” she challenged him.

Not that I think this makes Walder any less of a bitter, spiteful person in this instance but I think it does serve to show the hard choices that have to be made in war. (To me, this was more extortion of what he could get from Robb than weighing options of loyalty.)

· Catelyn and Theon almost play the part of “angel and devil” on Robb’s shoulder with Catelyn advocating the more rational, cautious ideas and Theon suggesting more proactive, risky ideas. Or perhaps they’re more like a superego and id to Robb.

· Brynden has an obsidian fish. He continues to be quite awesome.

· The northern lords can be quite entertaining and boisterous, but meeting Stevron is a nice change. He’s polite, kind, quiet, and doesn’t really have a threating presence to him in the way that someone like the Greatjon does.

· The “who was Robert Arryn going to be fostered with?” saga ends here for Cat as Walder tells her with confidence that it was Stannis that would foster him. I’ve been wondering why this is so important to span across whole chapters and my first impression is that it confirms for Cat that Stannis and Jon were allying together for a coming war, long before the Starks even entered the picture.

Analysis

The Rushing River

The chapter is set next to the Green Fork, which in the ending summer has become fast and deep. It complements the fast pace of the chapter itself and the urgency that Robb is making his way south. It’s a high-stakes game and the rush is important enough for Robb to end the day with a betrothal he did not expect and seemed apprehensive to agree to. In general, Robb’s character is varied in this chapter.

The Boy and the Lord

Robb is still clearly trying to balance between his relative inexperience as Lord and war commander. Though he does slip up, he is making good steps that Catelyn is proud of.

Robb rode at the front of the column, beneath the flapping white banner of Winterfell. Each day he would ask one of his lords to join him, so they might confer as they marched; he honored every man in turn, showing no favorites, listening as his lord father had listened, weighing the words of one against the other.

Though he is making great progress, there are still a few moments of inexperience and that childish impulsiveness from the previous chapter.

“Lord Frey cannot hope to fight the Lannisters by himself. Surely he means to join his power to ours.”

…

“I must have that crossing!” Robb declared, fuming… He balled his hand into a fist.

…

Robb glanced from her to Greyjoy, searching for an answer and finding none. For a moment he looked even younger than his fifteen years, despite his mail and sword and the stubble on his cheeks. “What would my lord father do?” he asked her.

After this, we get a quote from Catelyn that, just like before about fear and laughter, brings to mind Tywin Lannister.

"You sound like a sulky boy, Robb," Catelyn said sharply. "A child sees an obstacle, and his first thought is to run around it or knock it down. A lord must learn that sometimes words can accomplish what swords cannot."

(Eerily enough, both this and Tywin’s later quote are in relation to Walder Frey.) And it’s true. Robb hasn’t even tasted battle yet he speaks of taking down the Twins if they won’t let him pass. It’s up to Catelyn to tell him that there need not be a violent path, that sometimes negotiations are useful. And still, though Catelyn is not afraid to chide him when she sees it necessary, she will not do so in a manner than will undermine him.

Another point of interest is that even though Catelyn is doing what she can to help shape Robb into a good Lord, she is not taking undue credit here. In her thoughts, all her hope for Robb’s future is on Ned.

He has learned so much from Ned, she thought as she watched him, but has he learned enough?

Did you teach him wisdom as well as valor, Ned? she wondered. Did you teach him how to kneel?

The Old Man

We get our introduction to the bitter and sharp-tongued Lord Walder Frey. And I find a strange parallel between him and Cat. They don’t really care for nonsense, courtesies, and things like that.

"It is a great pleasure to see you again after so many years, my lord," Catelyn said.

The old man squinted at her suspiciously. "Is it? I doubt that. Spare me your sweet words, Lady Catelyn, I am too old. Why are you here? Is your boy too proud to come before me himself? What am I to do with you?"

Catelyn has put on her Lady’s face here and out of necessity, for as we’ve discussed before this isn’t really her style. And even though Walder sees through it, he knows the game and plays it minimally.

When he was settled, the old man beckoned Catelyn forward and planted a papery dry kiss on her hand. "There," he announced. "Now that I have observed the courtesies, my lady, perhaps my sons will do me the honor of shutting their mouths. Why are you here?"

The exchange is long-winded on his part, and at times very comical. He’s quite the rambling old man and his insults can range from just bitterness to clever. My personal favorite:

What's he got to be so puffed up about anyway? Only two sons, and one of them's a twisted little monster. I'll match him son for son, and I'll still have nineteen and a half left when all of his are dead!" He cackled.

What I find interesting here, something that I’ve remarked upon in Catelyn-centered debates, is that we don’t actually get the bargaining. We get one line about it and then we’re going back out to Robb and the terms are told there.

As for pondering the reasons for that, I think the simplest explanation is that we are supposed to see Robb’s reaction to the terms, his surprise at them, but showing the negotiations beforehand would just be repeating the information in a matter of paragraphs. We get a response from Robb about each part of the deal, and in the end it’s Robb’s choice.

“I consent,” Robb said solemnly. He had never seemed more manly to her than he did in that moment. Boys might play with swords, but it took a lord to make a marriage pact, knowing what it meant.

I’d also like to say that I don’t believe this was a particularly bad negotiation as often claimed. I’ve seen it around every so often, to the tune of “she should have tried for a better deal!” Well, how was this not a good deal? It’s an alliance. It’s common. It helped them out with their urgent needs and added a lot of men to the army. Men who were not of the north or sworn to him, which brings me to the next point.

Gamble

This might be argued as the point of no return. Back at Moat Cailan, Cat does mentioned sending Robb back to Winterfell. He was leading northern men who readily responded to his call, who for the most part seem to have genuine respect for Eddard.

But the men of the Twins have no such obligations. They have their own interests to look out for, signified by their refusal to take a side early on and fight the Lannister on their lands. Now, they’re following Robb. He can’t just dissolve his army as he may have been able to do once before. He’s now leading men who have never known loyalty to the north, only this new loyalty to him. Catelyn’s thoughts at the end sum it up nicely.

For good or ill, her son had thrown the dice.

[BearQueen87]

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 59: Catelyn IX – The Boy, The Lord, and the Old Man

Very nice job, Lord Stoneheart, as always!

Cat the Northerner

You must save your strength for Robb, she told herself. He is the only one you can help. You must be as fierce and hard as the north, Catelyn Tully. You must be a Stark for true now, like your son.

Here we get not just Cat’s association to the north by what she does or says, but her own thoughts about what she needs to do for Robb, and that is become stronger like Ned, like Brandon, like the North.

Cat does a very nice job too. She's become like the stone kings of Winterfell: still and stern. Cat hides everything she is feeling behind this "stone" face. Also, Robb's bannermen listen to her. They don't keep her away from these proceedings. "Do you think he means to betray us to the Lannisters, my lady?" Robett Glover asked gravely.

Catelyn and Theon almost play the part of “angel and devil” on Robb’s shoulder with Catelyn advocating the more rational, cautious ideas and Theon suggesting more proactive, risky ideas. Or perhaps they’re more like a superego and id to Robb.

I really like that. And of course, Theon's rash, risky, and proactive ideas are going to have serious consequences for Robb, Cat, and Winterfell.

Robb is still clearly trying to balance between his relative inexperience as Lord and war commander. Though he does slip up, he is making good steps that Catelyn is proud of.

Robb rode at the front of the column, beneath the flapping white banner of Winterfell. Each day he would ask one of his lords to join him, so they might confer as they marched; he honored every man in turn, showing no favorites, listening as his lord father had listened, weighing the words of one against the other.

This is exactly what Ned would do at Winterfell. He would invite different men of the household to sup with him every night. He used to tell Robb, "know the men who fight for you, and make sure they know you as well." (paraphrase).

After this, we get a quote from Catelyn that, just like before about fear and laughter, brings to mind Tywin Lannister.

"You sound like a sulky boy, Robb," Catelyn said sharply. "A child sees an obstacle, and his first thought is to run around it or knock it down. A lord must learn that sometimes words can accomplish what swords cannot."

I think it's important to note that when Robb doesn't balk or bristle at being chastised by his mother. And neither do the Northern lords. Cat is one of them. They don't consider her a stranger or "too womanly" to be amongst them. It makes me wonder if there isn't a bit of liberal leanings when it comes to women in the north in general. We know we have Maege Mormont there--but there are no men to take her place, Jorah being across the Narrow Sea. We get hints that Lyanna was a bit of a wild wolf girl, and of course Arya takes after her. The northern lords seem quite okay with Cat being "one of the dudes." When she offers to go into the Twins, there is just a "are you sure" that stems from her safety, NOT her ability to negotiate and get Walder Frey to open his gates.

We get our introduction to the bitter and sharp-tongued Lord Walder Frey. And I find a strange parallel between him and Cat. They don’t really care for nonsense, courtesies, and things like that.

*shudder* Walder Frey. That is all.

I’d also like to say that I don’t believe this was a particularly bad negotiation as often claimed. I’ve seen it around every so often, to the tune of “she should have tried for a better deal!” Well, how was this not a good deal? It’s an alliance. It’s common. It helped them out with their urgent needs and added a lot of men to the army. Men who were not of the north or sworn to him, which brings me to the next point.

I think Walder Frey is taking advantage of the fact that right now he holds all the cards. He knows Cat and Robb need to cross, but he's talking his pound of flesh and loving it. However, this isn't atypical for Westeros at all. Wards, squires, and political marriages are literally the bread and butter of the 7 Kingdoms. I wouldn't be surprised if Walder Frey demanded MORE and didn't get it because Cat started drawing lines in the sand.

This might be argued as the point of no return. Back at Moat Cailan, Cat does mentioned sending Robb back to Winterfell. He was leading northern men who readily responded to his call, who for the most part seem to have genuine respect for Eddard.

For good or ill, her son had thrown the dice.

It is. In fact, I think GRRM is making a play on words to a VERY famous quote about river crossing and die...."Alea iacta est" (the die is cast) or so said (supposedly) Julius Caesar when he crossed the Rubicon.

Misc Notes

1) Upon re-read this line stuck out at me quite a bit: "All those who did go south are running north again." Tell me that's not the general plot line of all the Starks....

2) *shudder* Walder Frey.

[SeanF]

Catelyn negotiated as good a deal as anyone could get in the circumstances. It's a pity Robb dropped the ball, later.