Good fantasy page-turners

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Hey, since this topic is totally off the rails and I'm feeling pissy, it's always bothered me how the same people that have absoulte shit fits at Bakker for his uh, treatment, of women are the same ones that praise the shit out of Outlander and have giant posters of Harry Dresden on their walls. Y'all are giant hypocrites.

hail hydra

I just binged through the Dresden files. While it's filled with tons of of male gaze and casual chauvinism, I can see why people would prefer his treatment of women to Bakker's. The misogyny is less in your face and there are plenty of strong (as in kicks ass) female characters.

Unless I've missed something. Which is very possible since I wasn't doing a close reading.

[Hello World]

OP, you should try Gormenghast if you haven’t already.

[EruditeFool]

Shameless Plug: Look at my avatar.

[Anatúrinbor]

I second the Gormenghast series suggestion, it is quite the page-turner,

The Li­brar­ian was watch­ing the left eye­brow of his lord­ship. It was twenty-one min­utes to ten by the clock at the far end of the hall. Lord Groan ap­peared to be look­ing through this clock. Three-quar­ters of a minute went by, it was ten sec­onds - five sec­onds - three sec­onds - one sec­ond - to twenty to ten. It was twenty min­utes to ten. Lord Groan's left eye­brow rose up his fore­head me­chan­i­cally and stayed sus­pended be­neath three wrin­kles. Then it slowly low­ered it­self. At the move­ment, Sour­dust arose and stamped upon the ground with an old thin leg...

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

One of the "Outlander" commentaries said this:

This is why there is a big WTF about the whole thing. Sure, husbands could beat their wives, that's a historical fact. However, describing it as romantic is all sorts of fucked up.

If I remember, I think has to beat her. He is really angry about what happened. he wants to throttle her, but I don't think he would have except that he absolutely had to. It's discussed at some point before or after the beating (and it wasn't a spanking, it really was a beating...and no, you can't say she deserved it more because she fought him, because duh, who wouldn't), as to what could happen to Claire after her actions. The men downstairs would have killed her. If Jamie doesn't beat her, they will kill her. I think that both of the choices laid out to him are more than he can handle- beat the woman he loves (even though he's keeping it close to the vest at this point), or not beat her and have her hung buy his Uncle.

She never romanticizes the beating, and she doesn't fall in love with Jamie after the beating, (because the beating made her love him? that's an actual argument? I give the character more credit). Her feelings change to love after the beating when she realizes after that he knew where he was going to save her from, and that it could mean his torture, death and/or imprisonment.

With her scream, he 100% was willing to die at that point in order to save her life and keep her from being raped/tortured/killed by Randall. All of the men in the camp risked their lives to save her, they committed crimes to do so. Jamie kills a guard and goes in unarmed ready to die. He feels bad about the beating, (and yeah, I hear the beaten woman telling her friends "he feels bad about it" and she just stays and gets beat over and over...but this is...different...). He swears an oath on the knife to never cause her bodily harm again, and it's at that point I think Claire realizes that she never wants to put him in that position ever again and feels love for him. It isn't the beating, it's that he legitimately risked his life for hers, and then again did something he hated doing, in order to save her life (from the men downstairs). Was he pissed? Yes. Did he take out his rage on her? Yes, and it was not okay. Would he have done that if it wasn't necessary to save her life? I don't think so. I think he would have slept outside and ignored her for a very long time.

Did he rape her...I don't think that's the case here. The bruises and soreness she complained of on her thighs were not from the beating, they were from many rounds of hard ready-willing-and-able sex, that she never said no to. His hip bones are hitting thigh bruises, because his hip bones put them there, with her permission. Claire has shown herself repeatedly to be a person who would give more than an "no, i'm sore" if she thought she was going to get raped. Her musings on Jamie not being denied are not thought in a scared or frightened way. It's a matter of fact statement that she is just fine with, as she doesn't want to deny him, and I think at this point she realizes it. And yes, just because a sexual act is slow doesn't mean it can't be a rape, but in this case, I think Claire just isn't up for the wild rides they had been having, because frankly, she's had a lot of them and I can understand being a bit sore by that. She is not too sore for a little less acrobatic encounter. I fully believe she would have kneed him in the balls if she considered this rape. Remember, Jamie is covered in obvious and large bite marks that are bruised, and his back is covered in bruises and cuts from Claire, and not because she was trying to fend him off, (and they had nothing to do with the beating- that was his bloody nose, scratches and kick to the balls). Claire fights for herself without hesitation and at all times. If she thought she was going to get raped, something would have happened to Jamie, by Claire's hand.

Another reason why I do not believe that she was raped, is because he swears on that knife that he will never cause her bodily harm ever again. I am pretty sure that that would also include rape.

And don't forget, he thinks his sister was raped and the thought of that sickens him.

He also risks his life and the lives of the men with him, to save her from being raped by Randall.

Oh and I think somewhere it was mentioned in the thread that he says he is her master, and she must do as told...Jamie says things a lot that he doesn't necessarily mean or believe...he's very self deprecating and jokey. After he says that he admits that she is his master, and she is in complete and utter control over him.

Edit: I also hate anything that is classified as "feminist" or "for women." I don't get that and I don't like that. I hate labels. I read the novels because I enjoyed the story telling, and not because I thought they were the female version of ASoI&F (for one, they come out a hell of a lot quicker, lol).

[The Reckoner]

Try Bauchelain and Korbal Broach by Steven Erikson. Short, snappy black comedy at its best.

Outlander was written by a female author. It is not rape, you silly MRAs.

[peterbound]

Try Bauchelain and Korbal Broach by Steven Erikson. Short, snappy black comedy at its best.

Outlander was written by a female author. It is not rape, you silly MRAs.

Woman can't write about rape?

Did I miss that memo?

[The Reckoner]

No, you just quoted it.

[peterbound]

No, you just quoted it.

Yup, you're not adding anything here. Moving on.

[Darth Richard II]

I hope hope hope that was sarcasm.

[The Reckoner]

:tipsfedora:

Try Fallout Equestria, OP.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Woman can't write about rape?

Did I miss that memo?

Yeah...I don't think just because she's a woman doesn't mean she can't write about rape. There is rape in the series...really brutal, actually, affecting Jamie and Claire. However, I do not believe Jamie raped Claire, which is the specific argument. Women authors have nothing to do with it, you're right.

[Zorral]

If I remember, I think has to beat her. He is really angry about what happened. he wants to throttle her, but I don't think he would have except that he absolutely had to. It's discussed at some point before or after the beating (and it wasn't a spanking, it really was a beating...and no, you can't say she deserved it more because she fought him, because duh, who wouldn't), as to what could happen to Claire after her actions. The men downstairs would have killed her. If Jamie doesn't beat her, they will kill her. I think that both of the choices laid out to him are more than he can handle- beat the woman he loves (even though he's keeping it close to the vest at this point), or not beat her and have her hung buy his Uncle.

She never romanticizes the beating, and she doesn't fall in love with Jamie after the beating, (because the beating made her love him? that's an actual argument? I give the character more credit). Her feelings change to love after the beating when she realizes after that he knew where he was going to save her from, and that it could mean his torture, death and/or imprisonment.

With her scream, he 100% was willing to die at that point in order to save her life and keep her from being raped/tortured/killed by Randall. All of the men in the camp risked their lives to save her, they committed crimes to do so. Jamie kills a guard and goes in unarmed ready to die. He feels bad about the beating, (and yeah, I hear the beaten woman telling her friends "he feels bad about it" and she just stays and gets beat over and over...but this is...different...). He swears an oath on the knife to never cause her bodily harm again, and it's at that point I think Claire realizes that she never wants to put him in that position ever again and feels love for him. It isn't the beating, it's that he legitimately risked his life for hers, and then again did something he hated doing, in order to save her life (from the men downstairs). Was he pissed? Yes. Did he take out his rage on her? Yes, and it was not okay. Would he have done that if it wasn't necessary to save her life? I don't think so. I think he would have slept outside and ignored her for a very long time.

Did he rape her...I don't think that's the case here. The bruises and soreness she complained of on her thighs were not from the beating, they were from many rounds of hard ready-willing-and-able sex, that she never said no to. His hip bones are hitting thigh bruises, because his hip bones put them there, with her permission. Claire has shown herself repeatedly to be a person who would give more than an "no, i'm sore" if she thought she was going to get raped. Her musings on Jamie not being denied are not thought in a scared or frightened way. It's a matter of fact statement that she is just fine with, as she doesn't want to deny him, and I think at this point she realizes it. And yes, just because a sexual act is slow doesn't mean it can't be a rape, but in this case, I think Claire just isn't up for the wild rides they had been having, because frankly, she's had a lot of them and I can understand being a bit sore by that. She is not too sore for a little less acrobatic encounter. I fully believe she would have kneed him in the balls if she considered this rape. Remember, Jamie is covered in obvious and large bite marks that are bruised, and his back is covered in bruises and cuts from Claire, and not because she was trying to fend him off, (and they had nothing to do with the beating- that was his bloody nose, scratches and kick to the balls). Claire fights for herself without hesitation and at all times. If she thought she was going to get raped, something would have happened to Jamie, by Claire's hand.

Another reason why I do not believe that she was raped, is because he swears on that knife that he will never cause her bodily harm ever again. I am pretty sure that that would also include rape.

And don't forget, he thinks his sister was raped and the thought of that sickens him.

He also risks his life and the lives of the men with him, to save her from being raped by Randall.

Oh and I think somewhere it was mentioned in the thread that he says he is her master, and she must do as told...Jamie says things a lot that he doesn't necessarily mean or believe...he's very self deprecating and jokey. After he says that he admits that she is his master, and she is in complete and utter control over him.

Edit: I also hate anything that is classified as "feminist" or "for women." I don't get that and I don't like that. I hate labels. I read the novels because I enjoyed the story telling, and not because I thought they were the female version of ASoI&F (for one, they come out a hell of a lot quicker, lol).

:agree: Very well expressed. :cheers: Both Jamie and Claire can and do do really stupid things, that put themselves and each other at terrible risk. They both need to learn to think better -- or even, sometimes, just to think at all instead of feel and act.

There are so many nuances and dimensions to what goes on between Claire and Jamie, nor does their relationship even begin hitting the full expression what they are to each other until the very last part of the book. The dynamics between them change and adjust constantly, according to what is appropriate for survival for both of them individually and together. As Jamie risked everything to rescue Claire in this sequence discussed by the quoted poster, so does she to rescue him when it comes to that.

[Zorral]

Yeah...I don't think just because she's a woman doesn't mean she can't write about rape. There is rape in the series...really brutal, actually, affecting Jamie and Claire. However, I do not believe Jamie raped Claire, which is the specific argument. Women authors have nothing to do with it, you're right.

:agree: :cheers:

[Darth Richard II]

Gross.

[The Reckoner]

@OP Assassin's Apprentice