Where was Daenerys' House with the Red Door? -- Not Braavos!

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Where is this stated?

In Daenerys VI, when she's talking to the wine merchant. I imagine she must speak Valyrian in a Tyroshi manner or with a Tyroshi accent:

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are... Tyroshi? Can it be so?"

"My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In Daenerys VI, when she's talking to the wine merchant. I imagine she must speak Valyrian in a Tyroshi manner or with a Tyroshi accent:

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are... Tyroshi? Can it be so?"

"My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him.

Thanks

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Just reposting this here, since another thread on this topic was just closed.

To all those who believe Dany was raised in Dorne: In Dorne, they speak the Common Tongue, in Braavos, they don't. Wouldn't Dany recognize the difference between those two?

Another objective raised, was that the Sealord of Braavos was present when the betrothal contract was signed. Makes no sense for him to be present if it occured in Dorne, now would it?

Followed by:

Looking at the timeline, something jumps out.

• We know that Syrio Forel had been the First Sword of Braavos for 9 years. He makes this statement in 298AC, though it is unclear when the former Sealord died, and Syrio's service thus ended.
  
• We also know that Dany was 5 years old when Ser Willem got sick. He wasted away quickly, which would suggest he died that same year. That would place his death in 289AC.
  
• We also know that when the Sealord of Braavos dies, the knives come out, as it isn't a title you inherit.
  

It is not uncommon for a sickness to spread through a city and kill a percentage of the population, like, for instance, the Sealord. We know that Willem was already ill, IIRC, so his death would have been coincidental, and perhaps, a little bit expected.

The interesting thing is that Syrio having been the First Sword for 9 years, would mean that, if his employment stopped in 298AC, he started in 289AC. The year that Darry died.

Darry doesn't necessarily have to have stayed in the Sealords palace, I've been saying that for some time now. Any property of the Sealord would do, even if it's on the same island as his palace. And when the Sealord dies, the knives come out.. If Darry and the Sealord died quickly after one another, then fleeing servant who take whatever they can are not such a strange thing.

As to the Tyroshi accent, Dany states that the first city they went to, after leaving Braavos, was Tyrosh. Now, we also know that in the beginning of their wandering around, Viserys was still guested by a lot of rich and influential men. How long did they remain in Tyrosh? We don't know, but it could easily be that Dany's accent sounds a bit Tyroshi because she lived in Tyrosh for about a year. Accents can change when all those around you speak differently. I can tell you that from experience.

[ChillyPolly]

To all those who believe Dany was raised in Dorne: In Dorne, they speak the Common Tongue, in Braavos, they don't. Wouldn't Dany recognize the difference between those two?

This is a non-issue. As far as we can tell, the Common Tongue is the only language she remembers being spoken from the house with the red door. If she did hear another language, it could hardly prove anything - at least not to those who don't find lemon-trees significant. If a lemon tree outside her window does not prove she is not in Braavos, then (by the same standards) the sound of children speaking Braavosi would hardly prove she wasn't in Dorne.

[ChillyPolly]

Another objective raised, was that the Sealord of Braavos was present when the betrothal contract was signed. Makes no sense for him to be present if it occured in Dorne, now would it?

Well, if Dany was with "Ser Willem" in Dorne at the same time as "Ser Willem" was with Viserys in Braavos, signing a marriage contract for Viserys, then perhaps there are two different Ser Willems (such as, Darry and Dustin). Note that the marriage contract makes no mention of Dany.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, if Dany was with "Ser Willem" in Dorne at the same time as "Ser Willem" was with Viserys in Braavos, signing a marriage contract for Viserys, then perhaps there are two different Ser Willems (such as, Darry and Dustin). Note that the marriage contract makes no mention of Dany.

Do note that Dustin isn't called Willem, but Willam..

And now suddenly Dany and Viserys weren't in the same city? You don't think that would ever come up? "They" had fled, Dany and Viserys.. Together, after Darry died

[ChillyPolly]

Do note that Dustin isn't called Willem, but Willam..

It makes no difference to a 5-year old. I'm sure the pronunciation, in both cases is WILL'm, with the accent on the first syllable.

Minor variations in spelling also make no difference in any pre-modern historical context. Shakespeare, for instance, spelled his last name in several different ways.

And now suddenly Dany and Viserys weren't in the same city? You don't think that would ever come up? "They" had fled, Dany and Viserys.. Together, after Darry died

First, we are discussing different time periods ... his funeral and his signing of the contract were probably not simultaneous. Secondly, Dany has no explicit memory of Viserys at the House with the Red Door; she believes he was there, but this may be based on what she has been told (and Viserys was indeed probably with Darry in Braavos during much of this period, even if Dany was somewhere else). Her memory of her room in the house with the red door was that it was her OWN room (i.e. Viserys probably not present). And of course she has no memory at all of her very earliest years.

Yes, it is implied that she remembers Viserys being present at the end, when she LEFT the house with the red door ... but even this is not explicit stated. It is clearly what she believes. But what she believes about the past is based on the stories she has been told interspersed with fragments of memory.

[bemused]

I'm of the opinion that it has to do with the death of the Sealord who signed the pact and the installation of a new one - with consequent changes in political attitudes.

The servants stole Darry's money ? Probably he had been given the money in the first place.. Why didn't they steal the crown that Viserys later sold ? This has always seemed to hint at the withdrawal of formal protection and support to me. ( And according to what Arya learns during her time in Braavos , when the Sealord dies , then the knives come out.)

The escape from Dragonstone has always been portrayed as taking place under desperate circumstances; no mention of a large retinue or much in the way of worldly posessions . Viserys and Dany's own credit would have been nil after Robert seized the throne. Whatever wealth Darry had personally would have been forfeit.

Once Robert and his council learned where they were, Braavos would have been under pressure to give them up. I think their ouster was an act of appeasement. It looks like Braavos wouldn't go so far as to kill them or actually hand them over to Robert .. just cease to shelter them. A political compromise.

The fact that Dorne couldn't do much about it behind the scene suggests that Doran's partner in Braavos ( the Sealord) was no more.

The IB now had to deal with Robert instead of Aerys ,so at that point ( before Robert's spending had spiraled out of control) Robert would have been able to hold the crown's debt over the IB's head ... and Braavos is dependent on trade .. Robert could have threatened to make trade difficult in Westeros. ( This is a common political tactic, even in our world , today - sanctions , tariffs, etc.) Braavosi trading interests could have been very nervous indeed.

I sometimes even wonder about Darry's illness and death. Even if he was ill ,his end might have been sped up a bit... Suddenly there was no one in a position to complain... With two signatories to the pact now dead , Doran's hands would be tied. He couldn't risk exposure , without being branded a traitor.

I've felt this way for a long time , but I think we get a hint of confirmation in the recently released "Mercy" chapter..

...

Mercy preferred the scene where the fat merchant shat on the Sealord’s head as he passed underneath in his gold-and-purple barge. Only in Braavos could something like that happen, it was said, and only in Braavos would Sealord and sailor alike howl with laughter to see it.... sounds like a political allusion by the playwright - merchants winning out over Sealord. Why would the Sealord laugh at such a display of contempt for his office ? ... unless it was a direct reference to a particular Sealord, like his predecessor and political opponent.

[Mithras]

The fat man stroked one of the prongs of his oiled yellow beard, a gesture Tyrion found remarkably obscene. “Slavery is forbidden in Pentos, by the terms of the treaty the Braavosi imposed on us a hundred years ago. Still, they will not refuse you.”

"Slavery may be forbidden by the laws of Pentos, yet you have a finger in that trade as well, and maybe a whole hand."

I think that fat merchant shitting on the Sealord's head refers to Illyrio. The Sealord has grown feeble and Braavos is not doing anything to Pentos where some people like Illyrio practice slavery and become BFFs with khals. I expect the new Sealord to declare war on Pentos. That Lyseni slaver ship captured in Braavos should also serve a plot purpose. I think major battles in the Narrow Sea are coming.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The fat man stroked one of the prongs of his oiled yellow beard, a gesture Tyrion found remarkably obscene. “Slavery is forbidden in Pentos, by the terms of the treaty the Braavosi imposed on us a hundred years ago. Still, they will not refuse you.”

"Slavery may be forbidden by the laws of Pentos, yet you have a finger in that trade as well, and maybe a whole hand."

I think that fat merchant shitting on the Sealord's head refers to Illyrio. The Sealord has grown feeble and Braavos is not doing anything to Pentos where some people like Illyrio practice slavery and become BFFs with khals. I expect the new Sealord to declare war on Pentos. That Lyseni slaver ship captured in Braavos should also serve a plot purpose. I think major battles in the Narrow Sea are coming.

How about this:

The current Sealord has a non-interventionist foreign policy, that´s why he expelled the targaryens from braavos.. he didn´t want to get involved, whereas the previous one was brokering a marriage pact with Dorne. He also allows slavery in Pentos, while the previous one had fought wars in the Rhoyne (piracy, slavery?)

Now that the Sealord is dying and a new one will be chosen, braavos could get more involved in foreign affairs.

[bemused]

I'm having to do this in bits and pieces ...

So, to back track I think the "servants" were not only Darry's servants, but servants attached to the office of the Sealord (whether it was actually the Sealord's palace or a separate dwelling). They were provided ... and would have had to obey the orders of the new Sealord.

I very much doubt Darry, Dany or particularly Viserys could ever have been in Dorne. It would have been extremely dangerous for all concerned and Doran is notoriously cautious. ...And we have Doran's explanation to Arianne...

“That green-haired girl was the Archon’s daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I... I could not do that to her.”

It seems Viserys was old enough at least to be told that he should go to Tyrosh if anything happened to Darry (a wise precaution if Darry was ill and/or knew their presence in Braavos was causing political rumblings) ...But Doran's personal situation resulted in his having to renege on his deal with the Archon and after a year , the Archon probably got tired of waiting or came under pressure himself.

Paper Waver .. as we know, with GRRM, clues can work more than one way.. Yes , I think your interpretation has value to readers taking an overview ... but in-story, knowing

that the playwright is Phario Forel

.. I think we have to also consider interpretations that are closer to (his) home. He may have seen or heard of consequences of political reactions to the pact in his own family..

ETA: Besides, Illyrio was once a water dancer, suggesting a connection to Braavos , and he has a long term motive for wanting Dany and Viserys under his control, If he somehow got wind of the pact, he would certainly not have wanted it to succeed. So both interpretations can actually be connected. He wouldn't want it , but neither would any of the fat (cat) Braavosi merchants.

Rhaenys_T ... since you're brave enough to mention Syrio ;) ... To those of us who still say, " Hey, we never saw the body and it seems odd that GRRM would have written in about a gazillion clues that leave the question of his death at the hands of Trant open ".. it's also possible that his death actually ocurred in 289, which would be interesting, too.

..How is a first sword's tenure ended ? Could be peacefully , but maybe not. We simply don't know , but I feel an answer is coming , one way or the other.

LordToo-Fat.. I think they may be about to become more openly involved, but think they always have been involved on some level.. seizing ships and their cargoes is not exactly hands -off.

[Lordsteve666]

I must admit i'm convinced that current sick Sea lord will be "put out of his suffering" by a FM, either through choice or by the next contender for the position taking advantage.

This would , story wise, be an ideal way to move Arya's plot forwards, giving her an assignment that will prove her worth and also hopefully provide us with some more details on the whole Sea lord situation. We'd undoubtedly find out some very interesting facts if Ayra went the the palace; does it have red door anywhere, are there lemon trees etc.

It would also show us that the Braavosi in general are quite open to changing their political circumstances depending on the situation. We already know the previous lord was more favorable to the Targaryens and this changed when the current one took over. So what will happen when the current one dies?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I'm having to do this in bits and pieces ...

So, to back track I think the "servants" were not only Darry's servants, but servants attached to the office of the Sealord (whether it was actually the Sealord's palace or a separate dwelling). They were provided ... and would have had to obey the orders of the new Sealord.

I very much doubt Darry, Dany or particularly Viserys could ever have been in Dorne. It would have been extremely dangerous for all concerned and Doran is notoriously cautious. ...And we have Doran's explanation to Arianne...

“That green-haired girl was the Archon’s daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I... I could not do that to her.”

It seems Viserys was old enough at least to be told that he should go to Tyrosh if anything happened to Darry (a wise precaution if Darry was ill and/or knew their presence in Braavos was causing political rumblings) ...But Doran's personal situation resulted in his having to renege on his deal with the Archon and after a year , the Archon probably got tired of waiting or came under pressure himself.

It's pretty tough relying on Doran's word for anything. His story of his ex-wife and the Braavos Pact in general make so sense:

-He wants to have Arienne fostered in Tyrosh, but Doran's wife threatens to hurt herself if another child is taken from her? Then, she leaves. So, she was unhappy with 1 of 3 children, so she settles for 0 of 3 children? Makes no sense.

-Darry agrees to a pact that the Dornish can break at any time, but Viserys is bound to? The Dornish hold all the power.

[Mithras]

Lord too Fat - I definitely agree with your interpretation. Everywhere around the Planetos, the regimes are changing. Braavos will not be spared.

I think Mercy chapter already has some political machinations in the background. Someone is trying to create a crisis.

There was also too much fuzz about the impending war between Tyrosh and Lys and how did they want to take Myr (who had the GC) to their sides. When the GC broke the contract with Myr, they agreed on terms to end the feud. You had a very good post about the Three Sisters.

Obviously pressure is building up in Western Essos and the return of Dany will be the catalyst to create the explosion. I think Dany and the new Sealord I expect are natural allies.

Illyrio has friends all over the Essos. Doran has a good relationship with Tyrosh and I assume the Martells are well known in Volantis too. Given that Dorne and Team fAegon are about to declare alliance, I think Doran and Illyrio will do what Otto Hightower did back in the First Dance. A great combined sea power will be gathered against Dany in the Second Dance by the machinations of Illyrio and Doran across the Narrow Sea.

[Mithras]

LordToo-Fat.. I think they may be about to become more openly involved, but think they always have been involved on some level.. seizing ships and their cargoes is not exactly hands -off.

Actually that was the legal procedure. Slavery is illegal in Braavos and that Lyseni ship would never come to Braavos if the captain had a chance.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

LordToo-Fat.. I think they may be about to become more openly involved, but think they always have been involved on some level.. seizing ships and their cargoes is not exactly hands -off.

he seized one ship with slaves that arrived braavos.

He is not engaging in naval warfare against slavers in the narrow sea.. But in his city, he applies his city rules. Slavery is forbidden.

edit: ninja´d

[Lordsteve666]

A great combined sea power will be gathered against Dany in the Second Dance by the machinations of Illyrio and Doran across the Narrow Sea.

Is this suggesting that Illyrio was banking on Viserys getting his alliance with the Dothraki and then when everything went tits-up he changes his plans and sides against Danny?

[ChillyPolly]

Theories derived from the speculation that Darry was a guest of the Sealord, and the Sealord died at the exact same time as Darry, with further speculations proceeding from that conclusion, are starting to seem far more speculative house of cards than anything I came up with. And I really think we should be looking for converging plot threads - not endless fragmentation into off-continent subplots.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Lord too Fat - I definitely agree with your interpretation. Everywhere around the Planetos, the regimes are changing. Braavos will not be spared.

I think Mercy chapter already has some political machinations in the background. Someone is trying to create a crisis.

There was also too much fuzz about the impending war between Tyrosh and Lys and how did they want to take Myr (who had the GC) to their sides. When the GC broke the contract with Myr, they agreed on terms to end the feud. You had a very good post about the Three Sisters.

Obviously pressure is building up in Western Essos and the return of Dany will be the catalyst to create the explosion. I think Dany and the new Sealord I expect are natural allies.

Illyrio has friends all over the Essos. Doran has a good relationship with Tyrosh and I assume the Martells are well known in Volantis too. Given that Dorne and Team fAegon are about to declare alliance, I think Doran and Illyrio will do what Otto Hightower did back in the First Dance. A great combined sea power will be gathered against Dany in the Second Dance by the machinations of Illyrio and Doran across the Narrow Sea.

I agree. My crackpot theory is that someone has hired the Faceless men,

to take out "keyholders", and steal their faces for the moment they have to vote for a new sealord.

Volantis: Dany will take her army through the demon road, towards Volantis. because she will need the ships (we were given a detailed description of the harvour) and to take vengeance against the triarchs, sacking Mantarys on the way... she will Burn the Black wall, kill them all, and establish a new regime with Voqorro´s whore in charge.

The three sisters will join once more.. Pentos will be taken by dany to put in charge the Tattered Prince...

Qohor, Norvos and Lorath remain a mystery though.. Probably they won´t play a part in what is happening.

[mormont]

[mod] People:

USE SPOILER TAGS.

Even for something you think is trivial. For every detail that comes from a spoiler chapter. Because if you don't, you are going to annoy someone who didn't want to know any detail. And that is not cool.