Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I'd like to know more about Mel's backstory. I suspect it was an absolute nightmare of sexual abuse.

That's what I suspect aswell, one would expect they would teach her how to create shadowbabies and that would involve alot of abuse.

[SeanF]

That's what I suspect aswell, one would expect they would teach her how to create shadowbabies and that would involve alot of abuse.

It's show, rather than books, but I think her comment to Gendry "At your age, I was beaten, kicked, and starved" is correct. We know her mother screamed "Melony" as she was sold as "Lot 7". She became a temple prostitute. I don't know if she was a sex slave prior to becoming a temple prostitute, but we do know that pretty children are abused in-universe.

Her own POV suggests that there are some pretty awful things she's trying not to remember. I suspect those are crimes that were done to her and crimes she carried out.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Fine with me of course ! :)

Yay!

Whatever you decide, guys, let me know. I might not be posting around the next days (I'll be a bit busy), but I'll be reading and I write fast, as my editor discovered, when it comes to GoT.

[Kyoshi]

Well it all sounded incredibly eloquent when I read it too. And I completely agree. Her walk isn't just "a walk;" it's incredibly metaphorical like you pointed out. GRRM didn't have her name this place "Dragonstone" for nothing, he wants us to read it as a symbolic walk.

I think Dany is accepting not only that she's made progress but that it's not quite the progress she imagined the first time she took a really long "walk"--from Pentos to Vaes Dothrak through the Red Waste to Qarth to Astapor to Yunkai to Meereen. It's like she forgot that though she isn't in Westeros, her overall endgame, she has made progress in her life. Like she once said to Jorah (paraphrase), "I'm not the young girl you met in Pentos. I am as old as the crones in Vaes Dothrak and as young as my dragons." At one point she had recognized that she was making progress and had changed and come a long way. But all that progress got lost when she decided to sit still for awhile. She has to keep walking. And that means being who she truly is: The Mother of Dragons.

What are you talking about? Your comments are not only eloquent they are quite insightful. I’ve actually never thought about Dany’s walk in this particular way and as you were explaining it, it made more and more sense to me. Not only is the walk about finding herself but also a reflection of her journey so far to the point she finds herself now.

I mentioned in my original comments to the chapter that for a long time Dany has used the motto “if I look back I am lost” she couldn't afford to reflect because she felt that she just needed to go forward, she couldn't stop, she couldn't stall. But then, what happens, she stalls, she stalls and everything goes wrong, because although she stalled she never reflected on why she was stalling on why things were going wrong. She was still going, at least through the motions.

Then her time in Dragonstone and the Dothraki sea make her look back, make her reflect on what has happened so far. She does it without thinking, just looking back but then she realizes why she’s looking back, why she has to look back. In the end she tells herself “to go forward I must go back” she has reflected, perhaps realized what went wrong and now is headed on her way to fix it.

I have always said that her last words, were words of reflection and your beautiful insight have just cemented that for me.

I was just thinking that in a way it was good for her to stall (and get trapped in Dragonstone) because that forced her to reflect, which is what she needed to do.

Thanks. :blushing:

MoIaF, remember when we discussed Quaithe's advice about all the backward travelling Dany had to do in order to reach her goals? I was thinking about that and your guys' comments (especially the parts I bolded) seemed to tie in with that. MoIaF, this is what you said:

I was thinking that Dany is about to follow the afvice Quaithe gave her but in reverse. Let me explain:

"To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"

First, Dany has already passed beneath the shadows:

"The barbs raked along his snout. Drogon rose, his wings covering her in shadow."

Second, to go forward she must go back:

She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. “To go forward I must go back,” she said.

She's now heading back to the Dothraki and Vaes Dothrak which is East of where she is now. From there, she'll head West (presumably) to Westeros.

I assume she'll somehow find herself South in Westeros before she heads to the North. Thus, she is doing the whole thing backwards.

What if in addition to this, Quaithe was telling Dany that she would have to look back not to get lost? Warning her in a way :dunno: And in this chapter Dany realises this without even realisisng that she is. :dunno:

[MoIaF]

SHould we maybe decide on a few themes for each comparison?Then when we break down the discussion into separate essays we would have specific topics. Like for instance;

Dany/Cersei

--motherhood

--madness

--ruling

--romance/sex

Or something like that? What do yall think?

This is a good start, I would also include prophecy. It's such a big part of both their arcs and it's a great contrast between the two.

Yay!

Whatever you decide, guys, let me know. I might not be posting around the next days (I'll be a bit busy), but I'll be reading and I write fast, as my editor discovered, when it comes to GoT.

This is great!!!

For the Dany x Cersei parallel, I have one more suggestion:

• Motherhood
• Madness
• Ruling
• Romance & Sex
• Prophecy
• Walk of Shame vs. Walk of Triumph (per Kyoshi)

[MoIaF]

Thanks. :blushing:

MoIaF, remember when we discussed Quaithe's advice about all the backward travelling Dany had to do in order to reach her goals? I was thinking about that and your guys' comments (especially the parts I bolded) seemed to tie in with that. MoIaF, this is what you said:

What if in addition to this, Quaithe was telling Dany that she would have to look back not to get lost? Warning her in a way :dunno: And in this chapter Dany realises this without even realisisng that she is. :dunno:

I know people have some issues with Quaith (and yes, she can be quite cryptic) but her advice here is sound and I'd like to think that Dany realized it, she seems to have at least. Also, Quaithe said gave Dany this advice three times (I believe) so she probably internalized it somehow.

[MoIaF]

So............

Is anyone interested in doing a mini (one essay) parallel of either/both:

• Dany and Arianne
  
• Dany and Stannis
  

[Stannis's Lawyer]

So............

Is anyone interested in doing a mini (one essay) parallel of either/both:

• Dany and Arianne

• Dany and Stannis

Stannis? :drool:

[BearQueen87]

I know people have some issues with Quaith (and yes, she can be quite cryptic) but her advice here is sound and I'd like to think that Dany realized it, she seems to have at least. Also, Quaithe said gave Dany this advice three times (I believe) so she probably internalized it somehow.

Speaking of Quaithe, I've been wondering what kind of role she might play in Winds. If Dany is taken back to Vaes Dothrak, is there any chance that Quaithe might pay her a visit like she did in Meereen? The idea of Dany in a cave/hut/tent somewhere and Quiathe appearing screams Yoda-Luke Skywalker-Dagobah to me and Quaithe has always been a bit of a Yoda. It would be nice if Quaithe were to show up and actually do something other than give cryptic messages. If she is Sheira Seastar (and I think she is) then she should be working like Bloodraven/Bran and BR is more helpful than Quiathe is.

[MoIaF]

Stannis? :drool:

Believe it or not, Stannis and Dany have many things in common. :D As we have been discussing some of their similarities / contrast when it comes to encounters with magic as well as their approach to justice amongst other things.

[MoIaF]

Speaking of Quaithe, I've been wondering what kind of role she might play in Winds. If Dany is taken back to Vaes Dothrak, is there any chance that Quaithe might pay her a visit like she did in Meereen? The idea of Dany in a cave/hut/tent somewhere and Quiathe appearing screams Yoda-Luke Skywalker-Dagobah to me and Quaithe has always been a bit of a Yoda. It would be nice if Quaithe were to show up and actually do something other than give cryptic messages. If she is Sheira Seastar (and I think she is) then she should be working like Bloodraven/Bran and BR is more helpful than Quiathe is.

Maybe she's been so cryptic because Dany wasn't ready to wholly embrace her dragon and accept her whole identity. Now that she's on her way to embracing who she is, she would probably more receptive to being mentored by Quaithe.

Of course we still don't know what Quathe is about (like we don't know what BR is truly about) so I hope Dany still maintains her healthy dose of skepticism. She should listen to her advise (if she offers any) and measure it against her (Dany's ) own beliefs.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I am unsure why Quaithe want's Dany to go to Asshai, though most of her advice seems to be in terms of Dany's dragons, so I am guessing it's somewhere along the line of dragonlore. Or perhaps under the shadow refers to Valyria which may also have dragonlore.

And from an SSM from GRRM on dragonlore.

In what place, if any, has there been an accumulation of dragonlore?

GRRM :Valyria. The Citadel. Dragonstone. Probably some of the Free Cities as well. Maybe Asshai in the far east.

GRRM has however said we won't go to Asshai from this SSM, but he dodged the question of Valyria, which could mean something.

Interviewer: ... Do you have any plans for the other characters to visit some of the other areas you haven’t explored yet, such as Valyria or Asshai?

GRRM: ... Actually Asshai’s another question; it’s kind of at the other end of the world. I’m not sure if we’ll actually ever go to Asshai. You may learn more about it through Melisandre or other people remembering it or talking about it.

So............

Is anyone interested in doing a mini (one essay) parallel of either/both:

• Dany and Arianne
  
• Dany and Stannis
  

I'll take a stab at Dany and Arianne

[MoIaF]

I'll take a stab at Dany and Arianne

Awesome! So, here are the assignments so far:

• Dany and Arya - BearQueen87

• Dany and Arianne (mini parallel) - Queen Alysanne

Dany and Bran - Queen Alysanne / MoIaF

Dany and Cersei - SeanF / Suzanna Stormbirn / JonCon's Red Beard

Dany and Jon - MoIaF

Dany and Ned - Parwan

Dany and Sansa - Kyoshi

Dany and Stannis (mini parallel) -

[BearQueen87]

I am unsure why Quaithe want's Dany to go to Asshai, though most of her advice seems to be in terms of Dany's dragons, so I am guessing it's somewhere along the line of dragonlore. Or perhaps under the shadow refers to Valyria which may also have dragonlore.

And from an SSM from GRRM on dragonlore.

In what place, if any, has there been an accumulation of dragonlore?

GRRM :Valyria. The Citadel. Dragonstone. Probably some of the Free Cities as well. Maybe Asshai in the far east.

GRRM has however said we won't go to Asshai from this SSM, but he dodged the question of Valyria, which could mean something.

Interviewer: ... Do you have any plans for the other characters to visit some of the other areas you haven’t explored yet, such as Valyria or Asshai?

GRRM: ... Actually Asshai’s another question; it’s kind of at the other end of the world. I’m not sure if we’ll actually ever go to Asshai. You may learn more about it through Melisandre or other people remembering it or talking about it.

I wonder if Dany's magic--whatever it may be--would be stronger in Asshai or maybe in/near Valyria. I imagine a Targaryen getting close to Old Valyria would feel the power of that place.

[SeanF]

I'd like to do the essays on madness and ruling, for Dany/Cersei.

[SeanF]

I'll take a stab at Dany and Arianne

I'll look forward to it. There's a rather good re-read on Arianne taking place at the moment "Trial by Folly."

It occurs to me that Arianne's prediction "She (Nymeria) burned as bright as any man, and so shall I" can be interpreted very ominously.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I wonder if Dany's magic--whatever it may be--would be stronger in Asshai or maybe in/near Valyria. I imagine a Targaryen getting close to Old Valyria would feel the power of that place.

I agree, I actually think magic within the series has a geographic nature (such as the wall, winterfell etc.). I'll add dragonstone to what you said on Fire magic, as GRRM stated not only was it built by Valyrian magic but also Valyrian magic still has presence there.

I'll look forward to it. There's a rather good re-read on Arianne taking place at the moment "Trial by Folly."

It occurs to me that Arianne's prediction "She (Nymeria) burned as bright as any man, and so shall I" can be interpreted very ominously.

That's a very interesting line and it sounds alot like Dany, I read the first essay in the Arrianne re-read though I've fallen behind so I'll be catching up.

[MoIaF]

The Parallel Journey of Danenerys Stormborn & ...

This will be a master post where I'll update any news on this re-read. Mark the post and come back to it for any updates.

UPDATE - 10/20/14

• Dany and Arya - BearQueen87
  

Essay I

Introduction

Lost of the "companion" (Drogo/Ned)

Finding a New Pack

Essay II

Blood and War

Magic and Prophecies*

Essay III

Identity

• Dany and Arianne (mini parallel) - Queen Alysanne
  
• Dany and Bran - Queen Alysanne / MoIaF
  
• Dany and Cersei - SeanF / Suzanna Stormbirn / JonCon's Red Beard
  

Essay I - SeanF

Ruling

Romance & Sex

Essay II - Suzanne Stormborn

Motherhood

Madness

Essay III - JonCon's Red Beard

Prophecy

Walk of Shame vs. Walk of Triumph

• Dany and Jon - MoIaF
  

Essay I

Introduction

Outcasr (Outsiders / Never quite at home)

Finding a place to belong (Dothraki & Meereen / Winterfell, Nights Watch, & Wildings)

Dreams

Essay II

Husband, Wife , Lovers (Drogo, Daario & Yngritte)

Born to Lead (Planting Trees) / Mentors and Teacher

Essay III

Identity

*Animal Familiars (Ghost and Drogon)

• Dany and Ned - Parwan
  
• Dany and Sansa - Kyoshi
  
• Dany and Stannis (mini parallel) - QueenAlysanne
  

[SeanF]

I agree, I actually think magic within the series has a geographic nature (such as the wall, winterfell etc.). I'll add dragonstone to what you said on Fire magic, as GRRM stated not only was it built by Valyrian magic but also Valyrian magic still has presence there.

That's a very interesting line and it sounds alot like Dany, I read the first essay in the Arrianne re-read though I've fallen behind so I'll be catching up.

As I said, I think Arianne and Dany will be enemies. I think that will turn out very badly for Arianne.

[Parwan]

Parwan said: Martin does interesting things with magic. He works on many themes from many sources.

With Melisandre, Stannis, Daenerys, and many others, it isn't just a matter of being careful and trying to avoid mistakes. There are some deep and troubling questions that the characters don't address well...

Daenerys Targaryen and Stannis Baratheon are not scholars. They do not consider the possibility that their involvement with magic could have unintended consequences, e.g. increasing the power of warlocks and pyromancers. It seems, however, that such consequences are inevitable.

Dany has a conscience. She feels remorse for some of the things she's done, sometimes where there's no reason to feel remorse (her behaviour towards Viserys for example).

I find it strange that she never questions whether performing a human sacrifice by live burning was the right thing to do.

That's interesting. I think Stannis needs to consider it more than Dany. As Sean mentioned above, Dany did sacrifice MMD to bring the dragons, yet MMD was not completely innocent, she had wronged Dnay and admitted to it, took out all her frustrations towards the Dothraki out on Dany who did not deserve to have her baby taken. But that was the only burning sacrifice Dany has made, and it was to a woman who had fucked with Dany. (not saying it was right or wrong, but it was not just a random person). Stannis OTOH has burned a lot of people in the name of R'hollor, people who didnt necessarily deserve it. I mean I have seen Alive, and when I watched it, I remember thinking "I would do that to, these people are already dead and those of us left alive will die if we don't eat.'

And there are other situations of Stannis burning people who were not really guilty of anything, certainly not a bodily harm to his person like MMD had done to Dany.

So, Parwan, I think that Stannis and Mel have a lot more to answer for in the 'burning people as a sacrifice' department than Dany does.

Although if R'hollor = the Sun. I doubt the Sun cares at all how many lives on Planetos are sacrificed for whatever reason. You know what I mean, just because we think of human life as a valuable thing does not mean any God does.

One can question the thoughts, feelings, and actions of various characters regarding magic, especially the darker aspects of the art. That was only part of what I was trying to do in my post. Among the "interesting things" I referred to are the vague and uncertain nature of magic in Martin's world, its apparent tendency to wax and wane, and the opinions of groups, not just individuals, about it. As an example of the last matter: it seems that the vast majority of maesters don't like magic. It also seems that said majority has a strange idea that magic can be eliminated from the world by political action.

I'll probably have more to say on these issues in later threads.