Leonardo Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I'll second that - I think David Selig has the right of it, this was a troll thread that's brought the Cat-bashers out of the bushes in droves...Theon murders Rickon and Bran yet is kept alive as a hostage later BY ROBB. The time for punishment was after the war when everyone's lives weren't on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Robb can't exactly kill his mum over setting a prisoner free, now can he, that would be mad and cruel, plus, kinslaying is a sin, I know Rickard's also his kin, but: Very distant cousin < Mum. Also Rickard killed two innocent children, Cat released a prisoner, hardly the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Theon murders Rickon and Bran yet is kept alive as a hostage later BY ROBB. The time for punishment was after the war when everyone's lives weren't on the line. Really by Robb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelex Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 So many of the posts here are such gross misinterpretations or simply incorrect that trying to set it right is a seemingly impossible task. I wouldn't even know where to start, and the things some posters have decided to overlook (or maybe simply forget)... killing innocent kids = not okay/understandable, especially when done in some kind of half-assed attempt at revenge or "setting things right." Freeing the kingslayer =/= killing kids in terms of heinous acts, given that one was an act by a mother in attempt to get her two children back, while the other was the exact opposite, an act of taking children's lives.Robb's youth and naivety, the more foolhardy mistakes he made, that's something I won't as readily defend. Robb's position when he returned needs to be considered too, that of one actively seeking his mother's approval of his new marriage, and he's much more willing to forgive Cat because of it... Mind you I'm not even saying Robb should have killed Karstark as he did, but do I miss the bastard? Not a chance. Does Westeros need more men like him? Ha. No.If killing innocent kids is not okay or understandable, then why is Robb waging a war? Wars as it happens, cause countless deaths of children. How is his attempt at revenge any more or less "half-assed" than Karstarks? Or did the Lannisport levies at Oxcross conspire to kill Ned or something? It doesn't matter what the act was, it was treason by definition. As I lay out in my opening post, there are no gradations of treason in Westeros so introducing such is not valid. Under no paradigm is it fair, just or lawful to execute Karstark and give Catelyn a vacation. So if he is going to be unlawful, why not keep Rickard alive then and try to make something beneficial from the situation. So wanting to avoid a scolding by mommy is something that should be considered when making life and death judgements? I really don't think that is a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archmaester Drew Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Nope. 18th cousin or so doesn't count as kinslaying. Robert and Rhaegar had the same great grandparents but nobody called Robert kinslayer. Fair enough, but Rickard still should have been sent to the Wall. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Nope. 18th cousin or so doesn't count as kinslaying. Robert and Rhaegar had the same great grandparents but nobody called Robert kinslayer. I'd even say it's closer to 50th than 18th. Robb is not a kinslayer, and Karstark should have always been punished. Now, killing him was a mistake, but keeping him as a hostage...that's even soft for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Wolf Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Theon murders Rickon and Bran yet is kept alive as a hostage later BY ROBB. The time for punishment was after the war when everyone's lives weren't on the line.Robb wanted Theon kept alive so HE could kill him with his own hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelex Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 IIRC zero. Unless the guys in the boat which Brienne drowned, can't recall. BTW, you guys realise that treating people differently due to their family and blood is basically the point of the feudal system, right? And the point of the justice is too be blind to such things when administering it Basically the immoral behaviour of excusing Catelyn and then invoking the moral highground to justify Karstark's death is faulty logic. Karstark did not deserve to die by the metric applied to Catelyn that's all I'm saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narvi Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Robb went Edtard there. Should've sent him back home and kept quite about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 IIRC zero. Unless the guys in the boat which Brienne drowned, can't recall. BTW, you guys realise that treating people differently due to their family and blood is basically the point of the feudal system, right?Well you can start with all the travellers and members of the faith murdered by Karstark's men, And yes the men that Brienne drowns.Tion and Willem are murdered due to perceived weakness in Robbie after Cat gets away without even a slap on the wrist. One act begets the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 If killing innocent kids is not okay or understandable, then why is Robb waging a war? Wars as it happens, cause countless deaths of children.So you fight a war, you can't punish any crime since war is really terrible. Great logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Beheading him was kinslaying. :( Even GRRM said that Karstark pulled the kinslayer card because he wanted to live... So, there is no kinslaying here. What the text SUPPORTS is that Frey never would have made the move he did without Tywin's sanction(quote from the BOOK from between Tyrion and Tywin, and its clear that Jaime was Tywin's heir and not expendable. Therefore, until Tywin hears from Varys Jaime is released, he gives no such sanction, and according to Tyrion Frey would not make his move. That is what there supportsYou are biased about this the same as Sansa , even though in ACOK Cersei tells Tyrion that the only reason she moved so quickly against Ned was because of Sansa. You ignore what text you choose to and cite no quotes; your argument is tired and biased, stop chirruping that loosing Jaime wasn't a big part of the betrayal Talking about bias while at same time being at all Cat hate threads is obsolete. And, no, what text SUPPORTS is the fact that Boltons and Freys have betrayed Robb before Cat releasing Jaime, what text SUPPORTS is that Tywin planned on having Cat and Edmure alive to exchange for Jaime, what text SUPPORTS is that Tywin basically gave up on Jaime at that point. So, no, I don't ignore text, I read it... And based on them, I made my conclusion. You can't find one quote that would actually deny what I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Robb wanted Theon kept alive so HE could kill him with his own handsNo, he did it because Bolton says he'd be useful in expelling the ironborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archmaester Drew Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 The Wall is always and option. Even Tyrion was considered for the Wall after his trial for regicide/kinslaying! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Even GRRM said that Karstark pulled the kinslayer card because he wanted to live... So, there is no kinslaying here. Talking about bias while at same time being at all Cat hate threads is obsolete. And, no, what text SUPPORTS is the fact that Boltons and Freys have betrayed Robb before Cat releasing Jaime, what text SUPPORTS is that Tywin planned on having Cat and Edmure alive to exchange for Jaime, what text SUPPORTS is that Tywin basically gave up on Jaime at that point. So, no, I don't ignore text, I read it... And based on them, I made my conclusion. You can't find one quote that would actually deny what I say.I already did provide two quotes, and lookie lookie you gave none. What text even supports your opinion, because so far you have done a lot of fancy hand waving and conjecture, and now you are looking like a biased fool.Tyrion is denied the rock by Tywin in ASOS; clearly e had not given up on Jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 What? He killed children, he deserved punishment. I can't believe we are actually discussing this. She committed high treason and she deserved punishment. I can't believe we are actually discussing this. What sense? You speak about morality and spirit of the army, but the spirit of army is more broken by entire South uniting against them, with North being lost to Ironborn than anything Cat did. Again, there is no sensible argument in which punishing Catelyn would bring "sense of justice, fairness and equality"... And, btw, equality? LOL... No one said that he had to kill her, just that the two traitors should had the same punishment. If he wanted to let Cat free he should had done the same to Rickard too, if he wanted her to be a honored guest to Seagard he should had done the same to Rickard too. His idiocy to believe that he and his family were above all laws and social norms is what got him killed the moment he decided that he could do everything he wanted and no one would ever say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelex Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 So you fight a war, you can't punish any crime since war is really terrible. Great logic. No, you can't punish people for crimes you yourself are responsible for and expect to be called a reasonable and non-hypocitical human being. And you can't pretend to be some humanist when you perpetrate a wide scale loss of life for the same reason as the one you condemn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Mladen you're insane if you think Tywin gives the go ahead without Jaime being released. He would still be at river run under control of the blackfish. What do you think BF does when he finds out Cat is murdered? Stop acting like it isn't a huge part of the reason Tywin gives the go ahead.I'm not saying to behead cat, I'm saying its hypocritical and stupid to hold karstark to the standard and then Cat walks free unscathed. Both should have been imprisoned; Robb can't behead people for treason when his own actions greatly diminished their own chances for victory.Cat screwed up; Robbie screws up thrice as much so most of the blame is on him, but Cat was an idiot. She should have arranged an actual prisoner exchange instead of setting TWO prisoners go who both FOUGHT against her once already with a single guard. She had no forethought and acted out if grief Tractations for the RW (Tywin writing letters, Roose betraying Robb) were in place before Tywin knows Jaime is freed. Tyrion also realizes in late AGoT that Tywin has kinda given up on Jaime. And Tyrion knows his father like no one else in the books. You also missed the part where Cat was to be taken alive. They ended up killing her because she went mad, and they didn't need her anyway because Jaime was freed. The plan was to exchange her for Jaime. Plus, almost none of Robb's bannermen consider what Catelyn did treason, and we never hear anyone (but Karstark, of course) complain about double standards. Robb's bannermen going against his order and murdering children in cold blood, is not the same as Robb's grief-stricken mother doing something stupid out of sheer desperation to get her own children back, and everyone knows it. I'd actually be appalled if Robb treated his friggin mother like he treated Karstark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Tyrion is denied the rock by Tywin in ASOS; clearly e had not given up on Jaime Tyrion wouldn't have been given the Rock even if he was the last Lannister alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 She committed high treason and she deserved punishment. I can't believe we are actually discussing this. LOL, we are... You are so lenient when it comes to forgiving child murderers, that it comes so normal for you to equalize what Cat and Rickard did. I am sorry, but I kinda find special place for child murderers. No one said that he had to kill her, just that the two traitors should had the same punishment. If he wanted to let Cat free he should had done the same to Rickard too, if he wanted her to be a honored guest to Seagard he should had done the same to Rickard too. His idiocy to believe that he and his family were above all laws and social norms is what got him killed the moment he decided that he could do everything he wanted and no one would ever say anything. Child murderer is not what Catelyn did. I am sorry, but I am appalled by the fact that anyone can actually equalize what Cat did and what Rickard did. I suppose you also believe that Ned got what he deserved for not bringing Jon so Robert could have killed him. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you love Jon and that changes everything. Basically, for you, all the children are expendable as long as they are not Jon Snow. I, however, have rather different view on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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