Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts

[Chebyshov]

Wasn't that a literal quote by Arianne herself? ^^

Edit: Found it : "I was a foolish willful girl, playing at the game of thrones like a drunkard rolling dice."

Yes, it was, and a reread of Arianne's material revealed that Arianne is as self-deprecating as Tyrion is self-aggrandizing. She internalizes every fault, when in reality she demonstrated herself to be quite the capable "player."

[Illuminated by Fire]

Poor Quentyn, forever known as Mud from now on. How cruel thy words were , Oh Barry the Bold.

Not that cruel. Mud can be used for many things but it can be quite dangerous. Just ask the crannogmen.

[Brightstar_]

Yes, it was, and a reread of Arianne's material revealed that Arianne is as self-deprecating as Tyrion is self-aggrandizing. She internalizes every fault, when in reality she demonstrated herself to be quite the capable "player."

Without having read that thread I will agree that Arianne judges herself too harshly, however she is no more than capable at the moment. She's also way too hungry for what she thinks is "her right" in my opinion.

I won't argue with you, but I do like to know how you think she has proven herself. Her only action resulted in a huge failure.

[Chebyshov]

Without having read that thread I will agree that Arianne judges herself too harshly, however she is no more than capable at the moment. She's also way too hungry for what she thinks is "her right" in my opinion.

I won't argue with you, but I do like to know how you think she has proven herself. Her only action resulted in a huge failure.

Not to toot my own horn, but I recommend reading the retrospective I wrote on her in my sig link. Anyway, here's the relevant part:

Arianne’s Queenmaker plot is highly criticized by herself, Doran, and the fandom, along with other characters who criticize aspects of it (except Obara who thought it was nifty). As one of the QM’s most vociferous defenders, I’d like to take this moment to explain why it was actually a very smart and careful plan.

As I hope I’ve hammered home by now, Arianne learned of Doran’s “intentions” nine years ago:

I have known the truth since I was four-and-ten… My father’s words, written in his own hand. They burned themselves into my memory. I cried myself to sleep that night, and many nights thereafter.

It’s not clear at what point she began formulating her plan, but we do see Arianne attempt to seduce Renly when she is “half a girl,” suggesting around 16 (given Westerosi coming-of-age standards):

One year King Robert’s brother came to visit and she did her best to seduce him, but she was half a girl and Lord Renly seemed more bemused than inflamed by her overtures.

We also made note of her attempt to sneak into The Reach to meet Willas. After she was caught, “that same year,” Doran tried to betroth her to Ben Beesbury, a blind, toothless, octogenarian.

Arianne’s plan is unique in that the first few years of it, she was still trying to figure out where she fell and if she was correct in her concerns. It’s clear that at as time elapsed, Arianne became more and more sure of her father’s intentions to set her aside. Yet she didn’t act. Even two years prior to the events of AFFC, when Doran left for the Water Gardens and her official charge was feasts and frolics, she did nothing.

In fact, her first proactive move in the QM plot-proper (rather than Operation Sneak Into Highgarden) came when Myrcella and Arys were sent to Dorne, much in advance of Oberyn and Joffrey’s deaths. Arianne worked to get Ser Arys in her pocket:

Her seduction of Ser Arys had required half a year.

This post from the reread by Rhaenys_Targaryen suggests that the start of Arianne’s seduction coincided with her receiving news about Quentyn’s departure. Even if the seduction was slightly before the Planky Town report, Arianne seeing the potential value in Arys for her own cause shows incredibly foresight and resourcefulness.

Joffrey’s death allowed for the political ambiguity of inheritance, given Myrcella’s presence in Dorne. Myrcella inheriting over Tommen is a concept that we first hear Oberyn float to Tyrion, and later reiterated as originating with the Red Viper from Tyene:

“War,” said Tyene, “though not my sister’s war. Dornishmen fight best at home, so I say let us hone our spears and wait. When the Lannisters and the Tyrells come down on us, we shall bleed them in the passes and bury them beneath the blowing sands, as we have a hundred times before.”

“If they should come down on us.”

“Oh, but they must, or see the realm riven once more, as it was before we wed the dragons. Father told me so. He said we had the Imp to thank, for sending us Princess Myrcella. She is so pretty, don’t you think? I wish that I had curls like hers. She was made to be a queen, just like her mother.” Dimples bloomed in Tyene’s cheeks. “I would be honored to arrange the wedding, and to see to the making of the crowns as well. Trystane and Myrcella are so innocent, I thought perhaps white gold... with emeralds, to match Myrcella’s eyes. Oh, diamonds and pearls would serve as well, so long as the children are wed and crowned. Then we need only hail Myrcella as the First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and lawful heir to the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, and wait for the lions to come.”

It’s not a leap to suggest that Tyene shared this idea with Arianne, seeing as Arianne stuck her in the Doran’s solar to tell it to the prince at the beginning of AFFC.

Arianne doesn’t set out to crown Myrcella right after Joffrey’s death, or even after Oberyn’s, which results in an inflamed Dorne that is ready for a fight:

The Red Viper’s death had inflamed the Dornish even more, though the streets had quieted a bit since Prince Doran had confined the Sand Snakes to a tower.

__

“The prince is dead!” a woman shrilled behind him.

“To spears!” a man bellowed from a balcony.

“Doran!” called some highborn voice. “To the spears!”

Hotah gave up looking for the speakers; the press was too thick, and a third of them were shouting. “To spears! Vengeance for the Viper!” By the time they reached the third gate, the guards were shoving people aside to clear a path for the prince’s litter, and the crowd was throwing things. One ragged boy darted past the spearmen with a half-rotten pomegranate in one hand, but when he saw Areo Hotah in his path, with longaxe at the ready, he let the fruit fall unthrown and beat a quick retreat. Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying “War! War! To the spears!” One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

No, despite things Arianne does not act until two more very specific things happened:

• The Sand Snakes were imprisoned, demonstrating Doran’s willingness to lock-up family members who dare oppose him
• Doran tells Arys (who then passes it along to Arianne) about his plans to take Myrcella and Arys back to the Water Gardens in a fortnight, taking away any leverage Arianne might have had

  “My apologies, ser,” Prince Doran said. “I am frail and failing, and sometimes... Sunspear wearies me, with its noise and dirt and smells. As soon as my duty allows, I mean to return to the Water Gardens. When I do I shall take Princess Myrcella with me.”

If it were not for those two events, as well as Oberyn’s death inciting Dorne and Quentyn sneaking to Essos, which Arianne interprets as the beginning of the campaign to remove her, she would not have set out to crown Myrcella. So not only do we see Arianne strategizing for 9 years, but even once a very good opportunity presents itself (Myrcella in Dorne after Joffrey’s death), Arianne is careful and reluctant to act until she feels she has to. Her use of Dorne’s newly revived bellicosity also demonstrates her resourcefulness.

I also want to make the quick point that the outcome of crowning Myrcella may not have been as disastrous as Doran (or Illyrio) felt. Here’s what Doran says to Arianne about how he felt the plan would go:

“... you would have crowned Myrcella queen, to raise a rebellion against her brother. Instead of an ear, she would have lost her life.”

“Only if we lost.”

“If? The word is when. Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms. It pleased the Young Dragon to make all our armies larger when he wrote that book of his, so as to make his conquest that much more glorious, and it has pleased us to water the seed he planted and let our foes think us more powerful than we are, but a princess ought to know the truth. Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. Dorne cannot hope to win a war against the Iron Throne, not alone. And yet that may well be what you have given us. Are you proud?”

First of all, I want to quickly point out that Doran never gets into the specifics of Dornish troop numbers. In fact, Rhaenys_Targaryen suggeststhat Dorne could have 50,000 spears. Secondly, Doran is assuming that the fight would be Dorne against the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, which we know is hardly a united force at the moment. Thirdly, I think Doran is being a touch pessimistic about Dorne’s odds here. Their use of guerrilla warfare allowed Dorne to withstand dragons in their past. If all of Dorne rallied to Myrcella’s cause, I think they at the very least would be able to negotiate peace-terms with the Iron Throne, such as Dornish Independence in exchange for returning Myrcella. Arianne’s group of co-conspirators included two knights, who probably talked to her about the military angle of the campaign. She even thinks to herself about how she may utilize Darkstar:

Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners. The Yronwoods might declare for Quentyn, but alone they were no threat. If they went over to Tommen and the Lannisters, she would have Darkstar destroy them root and branch.

This suggests that Arianne gave the military logistics some thought, though likely would defer to experienced warriors to lead the cause once the banners were called. Also keep in mind that Doran never taught Arianne any of this. His “a princess should know better,” is just as much a reflection on him as it is on her.

Maybe Arianne was too optimistic (though I assert that Doran is too pessimistic) about the outcome, but the point is I don’t think disaster was certain for Dorne here, not with the current political climate. The other thing is, if Arianne hadn’t acted, what was her alternative? To be set aside? Yes, her assumptions proved to be incorrect, but given the information she had at the time, along with the lack of communication Doran offered, there was nothing else for Arianne to think. The QM was a risk, though it was a surer bet than some campaigns we’ve seen in ASOIAF. And doing nothing was an even greater risk for her (and coincidentally a risk Doran took that almost cost him everything). The QM plot demonstrates Arianne’s strategic thinking, long-term planning, and overall pragmatism, acting only when she felt she had to.

[Brightstar_]

Not to toot my own horn, but I recommend reading the retrospective I wrote on her in my sig link. Anyway, here's the relevant part:

Im sorry but at best this proves that she's not as stupid as some people think she is, and I myself was never in that camp.

She's by no means a genius, and I do not think she had ever given the military odds any great thought. IMO she merely saw it as her last chance not to be put aside, and seized that chance without thinking it all through that much.

Doran's way of acting is much more to my liking. Dorne alone does indeed not stand a chance, and they have no allies that they can be 100% sure of in Westeros at the moment, so he plays for the long plan with Quentyn and Dany. His only fault is indeed that he did not inform Arianne.

Edit: In short, people generally underestimate her, but I think you overestimate her.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The thing with Ser Mud is that many people expect things of him that he shouldn't necessarily be fitting. He's a prince, and a Prince of Dorne. So, people assume he will be all "fuck yeah, my sexuality!". We even expect that from men, like they're sex machine by defaults. And it's something that I've always found funny when I say that, and there is always at least one man saying (jokingly) "but we are!". And when I assume that women in Westeros might be, in general, a bit fearful about sex, and even in our world, someone jumps to say "not because Arianne and Asha". Men can also be fearful about sex and girls, and considering Dorne background, Quentyn has every reason to be fearful about the whole thing: men are expected to be more experienced (that even happens today), and being a Martell, they also probably expect him to be Oberyn 2.0. We're not even talking about battles, but about something simply as losing your virginity and he's supposed to ACE that. I think he even had more pressure about that than actually joining a battle, because in fact, he did tried to tame a dragon.

I kinda feel this is a symbolism... like, the dragon is Q's penis or something.

[I S**t Gold]

Edit: In short, people generally underestimate her, but I think you overestimate her.

I think the parallels in the essay are really interesting, and certainly I feel like they point to Arianne's potential. I think the synergies between her are deliberate and significant. That said, I agree to the extent I'd say the impression of Arianne formed from Chebysov's essay is slightly optimistic.

I feel like there's a couple of key differences that maybe aren't factored in. For example when Arianne is imprisoned she has access to all kinds of useful books presumably placed there for her benefit by Doran. I'm going to say one difference between Doran and Arianne is that in her shoes, Doran would've devoured those books. Even if that's the only difference it's a crucial one.

I found Chebysov's essay enlightening, and it did a hell of a lot to improve my opinion of Arianne, but even a difference like this is massive. I agree Arianne is perhaps personally focused, and Doran's always bigger picture. Perhaps Arianne is in the process of getting to that point, but I don't think she's there yet.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I kinda feel this is a symbolism... like, the dragon is Q's penis or something.

Hmmm. More like, the dragon is the vagina.

Quent tried to mount one, he was too scared, and it ate him.

That is some fucked up imagery.

[Brightstar_]

Hmmm. More like, the dragon is the vagina.

Quent tried to mount one, he was too scared, and it ate him.

That is some fucked up imagery.

Oh god what has this thread come to :D

It does make sense, in a weird way .

[Hrafntýr]

Quentyn has castration enthusiasm. I think he'd be happier if the damn thing fell off.

We can talk about how Quentyn represses his id? I'm going to find a way to work it in now.

It's interesting too, because Yandel has to walk a fine line between shitting on both the Targs and the Dornish. But I guess because the Targs are disposed, the tie goes to trash-talking Dorne?

Girls seem to like Quentyn well enough, though. But I can see him attributing it entirely to his title of something. (The poor kid needs a hug!)

I say it wouldn’t have helped because, like I mentioned above, Quentyn doesn’t lack for girls interested in him, he just doesn’t seen to believe that their interest is genuine. I don’t see how being coaxed into sex by girls or women who are literally paid to pay attention to him would have done anything but the opposite of alleviating that anxiety.

And a paramour isn’t a courtesan or anything, it’s an actual relationship, and a public one at that.

I really have no idea what would have helped Quentyn.

The thing with Ser Mud is that many people expect things of him that he shouldn't necessarily be fitting. He's a prince, and a Prince of Dorne. So, people assume he will be all "fuck yeah, my sexuality!". We even expect that from men, like they're sex machine by defaults. And it's something that I've always found funny when I say that, and there is always at least one man saying (jokingly) "but we are!". And when I assume that women in Westeros might be, in general, a bit fearful about sex, and even in our world, someone jumps to say "not because Arianne and Asha". Men can also be fearful about sex and girls, and considering Dorne background, Quentyn has every reason to be fearful about the whole thing: men are expected to be more experienced (that even happens today), and being a Martell, they also probably expect him to be Oberyn 2.0. We're not even talking about battles, but about something simply as losing your virginity and he's supposed to ACE that. I think he even had more pressure about that than actually joining a battle, because in fact, he did tried to tame a dragon.

I kinda feel this is a symbolism... like, the dragon is Q's penis or something.

Definitely with the castration anxiety (and it's an anxiety because part of him wants it). Maybe he associates his penis with all this political machination (like why he got fostered with House Yronwood, why his dad is suddenly writing him when he's a boy and telling him he's the heir to Dorne, why he's being sent off around the world to marry this scary Targ princess who fucks everything), while his big sister, who ought to be heir, instead gets to host feasts and follys. I mean, if Arianne thinks the penis is the reason that Doran laid aside Dornish inheritance law, maybe Quentyn does, too. There's plenty of ways in which it could be straight-up Oedipal, though: e.g. his dad removed him to Yronwood because he was a sexual rival for Mellario's love, and in fact his mother subsequently showed her preference for him, Quentyn, by leaving his father.

Love the dragon as Q's penis, JCRB! eros and thanatos, blood/mud and fire!

[Chebyshov]

Edit: In short, people generally underestimate her, but I think you overestimate her.

I think the parallels in the essay are really interesting, and certainly I feel like they point to Arianne's potential. I think the synergies between her are deliberate and significant. That said, I agree to the extent I'd say the impression of Arianne formed from Chebysov's essay is slightly optimistic.

Ha, well by my own admission I have an optimistic view of how Dorne would have fared if the QM had gone through. But at the least I hope I was able to present why this plan made sense for her and why it was her best option, when her alternative was to be set aside, which would have also resulted in male primogeniture being established across Dorne. Those are some heavy personal and cultural implications, and as I said, she wouldn't have acted without the perfect combination of:

• Oberyn's death and an incited Dorne
• Quentyn sneaking off to Essos
• The threat of Myrcella and Arys relocating to the Water Gardens within a fortnight
• The Sand Snakes' imprisonments, demonstrating Doran will act against his family.

The QM plot was her only viable recourse. And while we can sit and stroke our beards and talk about how she should just get over her MCDS™, it's easy for us to say when we know Doran's motives and know that he never meant to set her aside. And to that point, I don't see how anyone can blame her for thinking that:

*quotes are under spoiler tags, for length and cleanliness.

<snip>

III. Misunderstanding of each other based on false, yet reasonable assumptions color their plans

Now that we've established a parallel in characterization, lets look at character arcs. Both Arianne and Doran's relationship prior to the events of AFFC shows that are operating under false assumptions of each otherassumptions that color and ultimately unravel their plans. Yet neither party is at fault; Arianne's assumptions about Doran are both reasonable and logical, and vice versa.

Arianne

In Arianne's case, the entire motivation for her Queenmaker plot is based on the incorrect concern that Doran means to name Quentyn his heir at set Arianne aside. Though erroneous, she has several sound reasons for thinking this:

"I have known the truth since I was four-and-ten, since the day that I went to my fathers solar to give him a good night kiss, and found him gone. My mother had sent for him, I learned later. He'd left a candle burning. When I went to blow it out, I found a letter lying incomplete beside it, a letter to my brother Quentyn, off at Yronwood. My father told Quentyn that he must do all that his maester and his master-at-arms required of him, because one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne, and a ruler must be strong of mind and body."

Above, this note upon which Arianne stumbles is hardly esoteric; Doran wishing Quentyn to inherit Dorne is blandly stated. In my opinion, this alone is enough evidence for Arianne's fear to be justified.

Yet there's more. Over the years, Arianne has never been presented with a proper suitor, potentially demonstrating that not only does Doran not particularly care about her political future, but he also doesn't care about her happiness:

"You do not know my father. I have been disappointing him since I first arrived in this world without a cock. Half a dozen times he has tried to marry me to toothless greybeards, each more contemptible than the last. He never commanded me to wed them, I grant you, but the offers alone prove how little he regards me."

___

"If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?"

The second quote especially exhibits that Arianne feels a distinct lack of love from her father due to his actions. To add insult to injury, Doran also relegated Arianne to the Party Planner of Dorne, indicating that he didn't value her and had no intent to shape her for rule:

"Even so, you are his heir."

"Am I?"

"He left you to rule in Sunspear when he took himself off to his Water Gardens, did he not?"

"To rule? No. He left his cousin Ser Manfrey as castellan, old blind Ricasso as seneschal, his bailiffs to collect duties and taxes for his treasurer Alyse Ladybright to count, his shariffs to police the shadow city, his justiciars to sit in judgment, and Maester Myles to deal with any letters not requiring the princes own attention. Above them all he placed the Red Viper. My charge was feasts and frolics, and the entertainment of distinguished guests. Oberyn would visit the Water Gardens twice a fortnight. Me, he summoned twice a year. I am not the heir my father wants, he has made that plain. Our laws constrain him, but he would sooner have my brother follow him, I know it."

Given these first three pieces of evidence, there's little else Arianne could think other than Quentyn will inherit Dorne and she will be set aside.

Her final operating assumption is fueled by this anxiety. She sees Quentyn acting very shady and sneaking out of Dorne with a suspicious party:

Prince Doran was still pretending that her brother was with Lord Yronwood, but Garin's mother had seen him at the Planky Town, posing as a merchant. One of his companions had a lazy eye, the same as Cletus Yronwood, Lord Anders's randy son. A maester traveled with them too, a maester skilled in tongues. My brother is not as clever as he thinks. A clever man would have left from Oldtown, even if it meant a longer voyage. In Oldtown he might have gone unrecognized. Arianne had friends amongst the orphans of the Planky Town, and some had grown curious as to why a prince and a lords son might be traveling under false names and seeking passage across the narrow sea. One of them had crept through a window of a night, tickled the lock on Quentyn's little strongbox, and found the scrolls within.

Arianne interprets this as Doran beginning to put Operation-Replace-Arianne into action. Though she has arrived at the wrong conclusions about Dorans intentions and feelings towards her, her logic was perfectly sound.

"Arianne should have talked to her father" is a questionable sentiment to me, especially given the Snakes' imprisonments prior to her plot. That would be like turning herself in. And again, given the potential ramifications of Quentyn displacing her, both personal and across Dorne, I don't think sitting idly would have been a better call either.

[Denam_Pavel]

Im sorry but at best this proves that she's not as stupid as some people think she is, and I myself was never in that camp.

She's by no means a genius, and I do not think she had ever given the military odds any great thought. IMO she merely saw it as her last chance not to be put aside, and seized that chance without thinking it all through that much.

Doran's way of acting is much more to my liking. Dorne alone does indeed not stand a chance, and they have no allies that they can be 100% sure of in Westeros at the moment, so he plays for the long plan with Quentyn and Dany. His only fault is indeed that he did not inform Arianne.

Edit: In short, people generally underestimate her, but I think you overestimate her.

I gotta say I think Doran is the one overestimated here.

Yeah, he had no allies that he can be 100% sure of in Westeros. He also had no allies he could be 100% of anywhere. He didn't know Viserys, he didn't know Dany. He had no less reason to trust Renly or Robb then either of them, and Stannis fought no Dornishmen in the Rebellion and send letters to Dorne as well as everywhere else. He CHOOSE to only ally himself with the people he wanted dead. Dorne stood alone, because Doran made it that way.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I gotta say I think Doran is the one overestimated here.

Yeah, he had no allies that he can be 100% sure of in Westeros. He also had no allies he could be 100% of anywhere. He didn't know Viserys, he didn't know Dany. He had no less reason to trust Renly or Robb then either of them, and Stannis fought no Dornishmen in the Rebellion and send letters to Dorne as well as everywhere else. He CHOOSE to only ally himself with the people he wanted dead. Dorne stood alone, because Doran made it that way.

If Doran is planning on restoring a Targaryen, married to a Martell, to the IT, why would he then jump in to help a Baratheon become King? His best option would be to let the Baratheons, Starks, and Lannisters kill each other until he is the strongest one remaining. I disagree that joining Stannis or Renly would have gotten him closer to his goals.

By holding out, he received concessions and hostages from the Lannisters.

[Denam_Pavel]

If Doran is planning on restoring a Targaryen, married to a Martell, to the IT, why would he then jump in to help a Baratheon become King? His best option would be to let the Baratheons, Starks, and Lannisters kill each other until he is the strongest one remaining. I disagree that joining Stannis or Renly would have gotten him closer to his goals.

By holding out, he received concessions and hostages from the Lannisters.

He didn't critise Arianne based on the fact that a Targaryan wouldn't end up sitting the Iron Throne. He agrued that dorne couldn't stand alone after he had refused to help all kinds of people overthrow the Lannisters. The Baratheons and Robb were gambles, but at least he largely knew what kinds of odds he was gambling on. He had no clue whether Dany was interested in the Iron Throne. And got concessions yes. But he claims he was looking for a way to kill Tywin Lannister. Renly, Robb and Stannis were definitely a way to get closer to that goal.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

he claims he was looking for a way to kill Tywin Lannister. Renly, Robb and Stannis were definitely a way to get closer to that goal.

Doran made his plans a decade and a half ago. Renly and Stannis did not share his goal of putting a Targaryen/Martell on the IT. Yes, they shared the goal of making Tywin Lannister suffer, but what would have happened if he had allied with Renly or Stannis? If he helps them then he has to turn on them in order to reach his goals. He signed a secret alliance/pact with the Targaryens. Helping Renly or Stannis or even Robb for that matter would be a breach of that alliance, which he was still counting on.

[Denam_Pavel]

Doran made his plans a decade and a half ago. Renly and Stannis did not share his goal of putting a Targaryen/Martell on the IT. Yes, they shared the goal of making Tywin Lannister suffer, but what would have happened if he had allied with Renly or Stannis? If he helps them then he has to turn on them in order to reach his goals. He signed a secret alliance/pact with the Targaryens. Helping Renly or Stannis or even Robb for that matter would be a breach of that alliance, which he was still counting on.

He signed a contract with William Darry. No Targaryan was involved and Viserys died while Dany was still married to Drogo. What was he hoping for? And Stannis only had one daughter to be his heir. Doran could've just as easily married Trystane to Shireen and made him king that way rather then Jaime and Cersei's child.

[SeanF]

Agreed.

And Julia, you're right that being coaxed into a brothel would not help. Deciding for himself that he actually wants to have sex is the first step to coming to terms with his sexuality. Since he obviously fears rejection, going to a brothel is the easiest way to go, with the least amount of complications. He may discover that there are other ways to a woman's heart, and loins, then through her eyes.

Perhaps a Sand Snake should have seduced him?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Perhaps a Sand Snake should have seduced him?

He doesn't need to be seduced. He needs to initiate. He needs to say: "I want sex, and that's ok", "I'm going to get some sex, and that's ok". "I want to have sex with you, and I'm ok". "I've had sex, and I'm ok".

Being seduced could possibly screw him up more.

[I S**t Gold]

I hope I was able to present why this plan made sense for her and why it was her best option, when her alternative was to be set aside, which would have also resulted in male primogeniture being established across Dorne. Those are some heavy personal and cultural implications, and as I said, she wouldn't have acted without the perfect combination of:

Just speaking for me you did that and more mate. Prior to that I didn't appreciate how from Arianne's POV she was forced into that course of action (and I do think Doran takes some of the blame there.) It is definitely worth reading. My own 'criticism' rates as a minor niggle. I just noticed those minor signs that there are some differences I think might be crucial.

Basically I think this means she's either on her way to becoming another Doran, but not there yet, or it could also be a sign that she hasn't got what it takes to fill his shoes. In fairness Doran probably has massive shoes what with the gout. The synergies you analysed in that essay are really worth considering and it is a top notch analysis. I''m really just playing Devil's Advocate here, I loved it, I'm just wondering if you'd reach slightly different conclusions if you were factoring in more differences between them. I think there's something about Doran seeing the bigger picture and Arianne thinking personally. Maybe there's also advantages to her approach too, because she seems to be better at relating to people whereas Doran can be too aloof.

[Chebyshov]

Basically I think this means she's either on her way to becoming another Doran, but not there yet, or it could also be a sign that she hasn't got what it takes to fill his shoes. In fairness Doran probably has massive shoes what with the gout. The synergies you analysed in that essay are really worth considering and it is a top notch analysis. I''m really just playing Devil's Advocate here, I loved it, I'm just wondering if you'd reach slightly different conclusions if you were factoring in more differences between them. I think there's something about Doran seeing the bigger picture and Arianne thinking personally. Maybe there's also advantages to her approach too, because she seems to be better at relating to people whereas Doran can be too aloof.

I'm not sure which essay was "that essay," because being normal, I wrote two tomes on Arianne; one was about her personality in the retrospective, and one was on the perfect parallel between her arc and Doran's (both in my sig). However, as a result of that work, I'm of the mind that she is currently, and always has been, Doran with teats (and sex appeal).

In terms of big picture vs. personally, I feel like we do Arianne a discredit to imply that the QM plot was entirely selfish. First of all, as I said, she's looking at Criston Cole's historical precedent, which is why there isn't equal primogeniture in the rest of Westeros. So there are huge cultural implications to being set aside. Secondly, as Doran asserts to the Snakes:

The princess flushed, and Hotah saw a spasm of anger pass across her father’s face. “What she

did, she did as much for you as for herself. I would not be so quick to mock.”

Which backs up the claim Arianne made:

The princess refused to be cowed. “I want my cousins freed. I want my uncle avenged. I want my rights.”

So this wasn't just about her own inheritance, though that was the largest part of that.

Take that and compare it to Doran's "big picture" vs. "thinking personally," and ask yourself why is it that Doran's even seeking to take the throne away from the Lannisters? Vengeance for Elia. Granted, similar to avenging Oberyn, this is a popular sentiment among the commoners, and one the Dornish seem to have been waiting for for quite some time. But I think it's hard to argue that Doran doesn't think personally. In fact, he handicapped his own plan because of his emotions, which is why Arianne never went to Tyrosh to meet Viserys. And even though Doran's plan is more cautious than Arianne's, what was the result? Viserys, Oberyn, and Quentyn (still unbeknownst to him) have all died. He's not even sure his course of action as best:

“Until the Mountain crushed my brother’s skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings,”

the prince murmured softly, as Hotah pulled a blanket over him. “Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?”

The good news is now that Arianne and Doran are completely on the same page, the two can combine their efforts and be the best damn politicians in Westeros.