Steelborn Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 The shadows - and the others or the great other.The shadows that bring death and chaos woke up a thousend years ago and began a war against the young reaces while using them against each other. Oh... I wonder how much we can speculate on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Unfettered will fare the Fenris Wolf and ravaged the realm of men, ere that cometh a kingly prince as good, to stand in his stead. I haven't worked out who the kingly prince is yet. But, the way I see it unfolding, whoever that kingly prince is will make it to the end. Oh... I wonder how much we can speculate on that one. What role do these shadows play in the end of Babylon 5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 You can pick out similarities like these in any number of popular science fiction/fantasy books of the past couple of decades. The plot wasn't so much taken for them; rather it's just another reworking of the various tropes found throughout all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehandwipes Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I like it more than any other idea I've read. I'd give GRRM more kudos for successfully pulling off a Ragnarok ending then just about anything else I can think of. Second. Funny, I think I started reading the first three books arounf the same time I was watching Babylon 5. He may have lifted some specific elements (like the Night's Watch defending the young races from the Shadows; whoops, I mean, the Rangers defending the realms of men from the Others) but they are all borrowing from the same myths and tropes. If the three heads of the dragon are three generations of Targ that will really say something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassBlackfyre Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 No, he wrote a Catelyn chapter first. That's not what he says in the interview... "But then one day the opening chapter of A Game of Thrones came to me, so vividly I =had= to write it. Not the prologue, mind you, but the first chapters proper, where Bran sees the man beheaded and finds the direwolves in the snow" The point i was making was that he started writing ASOIAF in 1991, so i'm sure its just mythological and archetypal themes that is shared with B5 and not straight up plot-lifting :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 You can pick out similarities like these in any number of popular science fiction/fantasy books of the past couple of decades. The plot wasn't so much taken for them; rather it's just another reworking of the various tropes found throughout all of them. I think it's unarguable that GRRM has been heavily influenced by Ragnarok, far too many similarities in language and imagery not to be. B5, well I think there's something to that as well, but it might be more that Babylon 5 and ASOIAF were both lifting their mythology from the same source independently of each other. I haven't worked out who the kingly prince is yet. But, the way I see it unfolding, whoever that kingly prince is will make it to the end. I was thinking of the role the maesters and the faceless men are playing in this. Are the FM instruments of Bloodraven or are they allied with the Maeasters? Clearly the Maesters are on the side of the Gods, and see (rightly) the dragons as an existential threat to mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 What role do these shadows play in the end of Babylon 5? not to spoil too much but by the end of the show they don't really factor in the story. They are however the main antagonist and the conflict with them is the climax of the series. They are ancient, fairly unknown, almost divine and slowly come out of hiding to wreak havoc on the galaxy. There is an equally ancient race that opposes them that aids the humans on the station and their allies. You should really watch the show. The first season is terribly cheesy with ghastly special effects and WB tried to kill the show after 4 seasons so the 5th is a bit disjointed but the overall plot and story is the single most epic thing ever shown on TV. It influenced Battlestar Galactica and pushed the Star Trek franchise into into plots and stories lasting longer than 1 or sometimes 2 episodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I think it's unarguable that GRRM has been heavily influenced by Ragnarok, far too many similarities in language and imagery not to be. B5, well I think there's something to that as well, but it might be more that Babylon 5 and ASOIAF were both lifting their mythology from the same source independently of each other.. It's not "unarguable." Sure, it may be an influence but claiming it is the main one and trying to tailor the plot elements to match up both is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 not to spoil too much but by the end of the show they don't really factor in the story. They are however the main antagonist and the conflict with them is the climax of the series. They are ancient, fairly unknown, almost divine and slowly come out of hiding to wreak havoc on the galaxy. There is an equally ancient race that opposes them that aids the humans on the station and their allies. You should really watch the show. The first season is terribly cheesy with ghastly special effects and WB tried to kill the show after 4 seasons so the 5th is a bit disjointed but the overall plot and story is the single most epic thing ever shown on TV. It influenced Battlestar Galactica and pushed the Star Trek franchise into into plots and stories lasting longer than 1 or sometimes 2 episodes I liked BSG a lot - perhaps I'll give it a shot. I had friends who swore by it when it was on - just didn't get into it at the time myself. I was thinking of the role the maesters and the faceless men are playing in this. Are the FM instruments of Bloodraven or are they allied with the Maeasters? Clearly the Maesters are on the side of the Gods, and see (rightly) the dragons as an existential threat to mankind. The maesters being the ones that bring down the dragons is a possibility that makes sense. I'm not sure that I really like the maesters and their order though - but I can see it working out like that. It's not "unarguable." Sure, it may be an influence but claiming it is the main one and trying to tailor the plot elements to match up both is just silly. I do agree with this - everything is arguable until ASoIaF is finished :D Just that idea for the ending - fire and ice working together like a song (albeit a destructive and tragic one) to right the wrongs of Westeros - I really want to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 It's not "unarguable." Sure, it may be an influence but claiming it is the main one and trying to tailor the plot elements to match up both is just silly. I think you're putting words into my mouth. I said it's unarguable that GRRM has been influenced by Ragnarok NOT that we can't argue over the extent. The maesters being the ones that bring down the dragons is a possibility that makes sense. I'm not sure that I really like the maesters and their order though - but I can see it working out like that. Martin is avoiding good and bad guys. Who are we meant to root for? The Andals and their seven? Or the CotF? The CotF are the original inhabitants of Westeros, if things carry on as they will be wiped out as a species. But do the Andals (and the Northerners for that matter) really deserve genocide? We'll see how things pan out but the Maesters deliberately destroying the Targ dragons is a big clue that they at least suspect what a potential danger they are, otherwise why destroy something that's brought unified government and peace to Westeros? The FM are a wild card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Martin is avoiding good and bad guys. Who are we meant to root for? The Andals and their seven? Or the CotF? The CotF are the original inhabitants of Westeros, if things carry on as they will be wiped out as a species. But do the Andals (and the Northerners for that matter) really deserve genocide? We'll see how things pan out but the Maesters deliberately destroying the Targ dragons is a big clue that they at least suspect what a potential danger they are, otherwise why destroy something that's brought unified government and peace to Westeros? The FM are a wild card. Well that's the trouble I have with the maesters - they're so humanist. Yea, i know, I'm a human too but I think all humans should try and rise above what they are. The dragons in ASoIaF may be a very destructive life form but so are the humans. The maesters don't have as enlightened a view as I would hope an intellectual order might have - but then, if you lived in a world where dragons were a reality, perhaps you'd have to pick a side, for the good of your own species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I think you're putting words into my mouth. I said it's unarguable that GRRM has been influenced by Ragnarok NOT that we can't argue over the extent. In reference to the that you said "far too many similarities." Of that I disagreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 sorry for the bad english not my mother tounge. I dont know if anybody notest it.i could not find anything about it in forums or debates.alot of the plot in a song of ice and fire is taken from babylon5 and from an animated movie from the 80s called fire and ice. Lets begin with that B5 copied names and plot from lord of the rings. that is well known and they dont try to hide it.The idea of bran connected to the tree and being able to see everything in the kingdom is taken from there - drall and the machine that projects his concienceness to the universe. The shadows - and the others or the great other.The shadows that bring death and chaos woke up a thousend years ago and began a war against the young reaces while using them against each other.when the shadows where defeated they went to sleep for a thousend years and now woke up again to bring death and chaos. The one and azor ahai.the one in made of three people who are the one.the one that was. the one there is and the one that will be. and the minbari revolves aroind the number 3. 3 casts. 3 languages and so on. just like the dragon has 3 heads. The rangers oath in B5 resambles the nights watch oath:"i am a ranger""we walk in the dark places no one else will enter""we stand on the bridge, and no one may pass.""we live for the one, we die for the one." and theres more. any one who will watch the show will see the similarities. as for the movie fire and ice. there are lots of similarities.such as: theres a witch there that looks just like melisanre and a very big slow man like hodor.there is the evil sorcerer necron that has frost magic and moves a giant wall of ice towards the south against the fire nation that has dragon riders and wildlings serve necron and his witch mother. i would be happy for comments and check the facts to. There's similarities in all books. I'll list some of the ones I know.First of all, a witch who looks like Melisandre could well be a coincidence. The very big mentally disabled (Never seen Babylon5 so I don't know if he was mentally disabled or not) is so common one might call it a trope. ASOIAF has it in the form of Hodor, Malazan Book of the Fallen has it in the form of Chaur, Of Mice and Men has it in the form of Lenny... It can be found everywhere. As for other similarities, well, first comes to mind Wheel of Time and pretty much everything (WOT has a little bit of everything in, it so everything written after it could be said to have been copied from it. Of course, WOT isn't entirely original either. The first book is very similar to LotR, for example), but I'll limit my comparison to just WOT and ASOIAF. It was actually pretty hilarious reading WOT after ASOIAF as I was constantly noticing things that had been copied (accidentally or intentionally I don't know, and frankly don't care. Both are great series) by Martin. WOT SPOILERS: Examples (Some of them may be a bit far fetched but whatever, I'll list them anyway) 1. Lightbringer/Callandor: Both are swords (Well, there's some speculation that Lightbringer would be something else, but it's still a sword in the prophecies) for the prophesied hero who will save the world. 2. Azor Ahai/Dragon Reborn: Both are prophesied saviors of the world. 3. Jon?/Rand Al'Thor: Both are the prophesied saviors of the world, neither knows their true parents until half way through the series, or in Jon's case later. 4. Iron Throne/Crystal Throne: (There're other thrones in WOT too but this was the one I noticed the similarity from) The seat of the ruler of a massive kingdom/empire. Even their shapes are similar (Westeros/Seanchan Land) 5. Dany/Seanchan: Both previously lived on the main continent but left for one reason or the other and are now returning. Both cause/will cause massive havoc among the people when their attention should be turned north wee the big bad evil resides. 6. Others/Dark One: Both live far in the north, and no one gives any credibility to the threat they pose until very late in the series. 7. Game of Thrones/Daes Dae'Mar: Both are essentially a game of different Houses competing for more power. It's actually called "The Game of Houses" in WOT every now and then. 8. Night's Watch vs the Others/Borderlanders vs the Blight 9: Wargs/Wolfbrothers 10. Valyrian Steel/Aes Sedai enhanced steel 11. Melisandre/Elaida: Both make prophecies, both wear red, both are evil according to the fandom (I have nothing against Melisandre. Elaida on the other hand is perhaps my most hated fictional character ever alongside every Seanchan ever introduced, with the possible exception of Tuon) There may be more but as some of these are already so common in fantasy that it's impossible to say who copied from whom (the prophesied hero, being one good example I think), I won't bother trying to get any more of them listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 In reference to the that you said "far too many similarities." Of that I disagreed. Not to be pedantic but I said it's unarguable that Martin has been influenced by Ragnarok, you responded by saying that it may be an influence but perhaps not the main one. If you don't think Martin has been influenced by it then argue your case, explain away the similarities, bring in other texts and histories that are as good a fit. For example the word 'Warg' is derived from old Norse meaning monstrous wolf, a direct connection to Ragnarok in the form of Fenrir, GRRM gives the warging ability to the Stark children, the young wolves, each of whom owns a direwolf, a gigantic breed (a monstrous wolf) who they can inhabit and become a part of. So yes I'll stand by my position that it's unarguable that Ragnarok has influenced the books to an extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 As I said, my initial objection was just you saying "heavily," which you are now saying "to an extent." I never said it wasn't an influence, just that viewing it as the main one is flawed. I've seen many blogs and threads that try to match the series up one to one with Ragnarok and most of it i consider overreaching due to starting with the conclusion in mind.Warg could also be a reference to Tolkien (just as Samwell, the sweet fool can be.) But even if he did take Warg from the Norse word, it doesn't mean that the Starks definitely represent the Fenrir, especially considering their widely different roles. By the same line of thought, the direwolves could be a reference to any mythological wolf, really. Like the Capitoline Wolf, or Beowulf, or any number of others. It doesn't prove that the story is just Ragnarok retold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 The thing is mythology gets turned around a rewritten and then integrated with and reinterpreted and reintegrated until even every mythology is based on every other mythology. Trying to determine how much any tale is inspired by another is impossible and saying that any tale is going to follow mythology x more than mythology y, before said tale is even finished, is ultimately baseless. All that said, having read the ending that the Ragnarok theory proposes, I think I will be disappointed with anything less for ASoIaF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 As I said, my initial objection was just you saying "heavily," which you are now saying "to an extent." I never said it wasn't an influence, just that viewing it as the main one is flawed. I've seen many blogs and threads that try to match the series up one to one with Ragnarok and most of it i consider overreaching due to starting with the conclusion in mind.Warg could also be a reference to Tolkien (just as Samwell, the sweet fool can be.) But even if he did take Warg from the Norse word, it doesn't mean that the Starks definitely represent the Fenrir, especially considering their widely different roles. By the same line of thought, the direwolves could be a reference to any mythological wolf, really. Like the Capitoline Wolf, or Beowulf, or any number of others. It doesn't prove that the story is just Ragnarok retold.That's fair, I shouldn't have said heavily influenced. Only time will tell, it's fine to make predictions about where the plot will go in the next two books and see who's right, mainly because it's a fun time waster while we wait another decade for Martin to finish it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitron Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Sheldon Cooper likes Game of Thrones but despises Babylon 5. How can this be?! He's young and doesn't know any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Is Sheldon the guy from the gang bang theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Is Sheldon the guy from the gang bang theory? Yea, the tall, thin ultra nerdy one that knocks on Penny's door going 'Penny, Penny, Penny' until she opens it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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