The Meereenese Blot

[Parwan]

GRRM has said many times (I'm paraphrasing) "the only thing worth writing about is conflict in the human heart." I also cant wait to see what happens when the red priests meet Dany, I think that will be the catalyst for the Ice and Fire story to really start moving. But I think the world building, while great, is only there to inform the inner struggles of the characters. Its why I don't care who gets the IT and think nobody will.

We may be down to discussing details here, or even debating semantics. Surely, one can write about conflict in the human heart without going into depth psychology or bringing forth Shakespearean soliloquies in one's prose. A good writer can do what's needed by showing his or her characters interacting with others. In other words, it can be done in terms of politics and sociology, not just psychology.

[thehandwipes]

Barristan is in way over his, the reason its so difficult to see how he makes decisions is because he's moving on instinct without thinking things through. He chose to throw away the peace and arrest the king because his sword hand tingled. He's only needed as a POV for the BOM not his political acumen. He's the perfect unreliable narrator to get us to believe all the wrong things till Tyrion works it all out.

I disagree that GRRM is overt when a character has come to the wrong conclusion. just look at the all the threads about rhaegar targaeryn. half our POV's knew him well and seemingly think about him daily, and yet we still have little idea who he was. He has a very subtle hand when depicting a characters mistakes (Robb Stark) and brutal way of showing us the consequences (RW).

We wont get the full story of Meerene till after the consequences have been suffered.

[thehandwipes]

We may be down to discussing details here, or even debating semantics. Surely, one can write about conflict in the human heart without going into depth psychology or bringing forth Shakespearean soliloquies in one's prose. A good writer can do what's needed by showing his or her characters interacting with others. In other words, it can be done in terms of politics and sociology, not just psychology.

Right, the world building is there to challenge the characters and force them to make hard choices that challenge their beliefs or deal with the consequences of sticking to their principals. I'm not demanding GRRM give me more inner monologues.

[OldGimletEye]

Honestly, the moment Barristan thought that the Green Grace, whom many think is the person behind the Harpy attacks, is a true friend of Dany (or something like that I do not exactly recall what he said) was the moment I decided that he was no great politican.

Tyrion, while clearly not in the range of people like Littlefinger, Varys (etc or even better Bloodraven :) ) was an astute observer enough to realise that Brown Ben Plumm could not be trusted.

ETA: GRRM did not include Barristan because he was omniscient (I think the Green Grace or the Shavepate could have shed a lot more light on the situation in Meereen, but because he needed someone close to power, when Dany was in the desert.

Yep, neither Barristan nor Dany never quite figure out or suspect that the Green Grace's "advice" is really the Harpy's demands. When she "advises" Dany to get married, what she is really saying is "here are the Harpy's terms for a cease fire."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Barristan is blind to politics and reading people, but he is not blind to war and dealing death.

In the case of the Harpy, politics is "war and dealing death." It doesn't do much good to know about conventional warfare if you're oblivious to the real enemy masquerading as your "friend."

[AdmiralKyrd]

Before I get hounded out into the water, let me explain. Barristan gets some things deeply wrong; these things generally have no textual occlusion. The two things Barristan gets right are:

One, that the honeyed locusts were intended for Hizdahr.

This evidence happens out-of-chapter. Recall that the Shavepate says they have the confectioner and that he had his daughter taken captured by the harpy, or someone posing as the harpy, and was instructed to poison the honeyed locusts to murder Dany. The plot failed and the kidnapper retaliated by murdering the confectioner's daughter. Barristan asks to question the confectioner, but it never happens in the text. What we can infer from the next chapter about Barristan's meeting with the confectioner was that the confectioner was just told to poison the honeyed locusts, or a Ghiscari food, not that the confectioner was targeting anyone in particular. The Shavepate either had it wrong, or was spinning the evidence to convince Barristan to join his side. Either way, the evidence of the confectioner and Shavepate not being on the same page gives weight that the confectioner actually was the poisoner - he wasn't just someone setup by Skahaz to get Barristan involved in a coup. Someone informed him of the confectioner, probably the same person who told him that the Volantene Navy is on its way, bringing an inevitable war.

Skahaz: I have the poisoner.

Barristan: Who?

Skahaz: Hizdahr’s confectioner. His name would mean nothing to you. The man was just a catspaw. The Sons of the Harpy took his daughter and swore she would be returned unharmed once the queen was dead. Belwas and the dragon saved Daenerys. No one saved the girl. She was returned to her father in the black of night, in nine pieces. One for every year she lived.

...

Skahaz: And there is more. Worse. Volantis has launched its fleet against us.

...

Barristan: This … this confectioner, I want to question him myself. Alone.

Skakhaz: Is it that way? The Shavepate crossed his arms against his chest. Done, then. Question him as you like.

(Next Chapter)

Barristan (thinking): Could the Shavepate have been wrong? Who can say that the locusts were meant for Daenerys? It was the king’s own box. What if he was meant to be the victim all along?

Two, that the hostages sent to the Yunkish camps have escaped (Daario, Jhogo, Hero). Barristan infers this in his final chapter, but he never explicitly mentions either his conclusion or his train of thought. Basically, the Yunkish killed Admiral Groleo because he was the last of Dany's hostages they had, even though he was of little value strategically. The reason he didn't escape was because he "just wanted to go home," as Barristan had figured out in the previous chapter. If there was an escape plot by the other three, Groleo wouldn't have wanted any part of it.

Barristan (thinking): Groleo had a wife back in Pentos. Children, grandchildren. Why him, of all the hostages? Jhogo, Hero, and Daario Naharis all commanded fighting men, but Groleo had been an admiral without a fleet. Did they draw straws, or did they think Groleo the least valuable to us, the least likely to provoke reprisal? the knight asked himself … but it was easier to pose that question than to answer it. I have no skill at unraveling such knots.

(Last Chapter)

Grey Worm: These ones will be ready when the beacon fire is lit. But the Hand must surely know that when we attack, the Yunkai’i will kill the hostages.

Barristan: I will do all I can to prevent that, my friend. I have a … notion. But pray excuse me. It is past time the Dornishmen heard that their prince is dead.

...
Barristan: Your Wisdom, did you present my offer?”

Galare: To all the lords and captains of Yunkai, as you commanded me … yet I fear you will not like their answer.

Barristan: They refused?

Galare: They did. No amount of gold will buy your people back, I was told. Only the blood of dragons may set them free again.

It was the answer Ser Barristan had expected, if not the one that he had hoped for. His mouth tightened.

[thehandwipes]

Barristan's no dummy certainly, he simply has no head for politics. After speaking to the confectioner he does exactly what the Shavepate suggests, remove Hizdahr from power. The fact that he questions himself only proves he's not fool, but he still makes a mistake. I'm not sure where from the above text you got the idea the hostages escaped and Barristan knows it. He's got something up his sleave but I think its military strategy, something i'm confidant he will continue to excel at.

Remember, Selmy wasn't going to be a POV in ADWD or the BOM but GRRM couldn't find a way to make the story sensible without eyes in power. Originally, Tyrion (and later Vic) would be our only eyes on what was going on, recounting rumors after the fact (the King as been overthrown) or witnessing the events himself. This tells me Barristan's not needed in untangling the knot, just recounting events.

[bemused]

It may seem strange to some to discuss this without the author present.. but when the author himself has promoted or introduced his essays on these forums, I think it's fair game..

I just disagree with so much of this assessment , I hardly know what to address first. First off, I don't think the peace was real, for all the reasons others have noted here...and if there ever was hope for peace, I think it would have required Dany's complete capitulation in the matter of slavery , for starters. And while the Meereenese themselves may have been willing to move gradually toward that goal (chain the dragons, marry Hizdahr, open the pits, provide an heir , kill the dragons ...kill Dany).. I don't think the besiegers at the gates would necessarily want to wait. ... Peace doesn't seem to enter into the current Volantene mindset at all.. not with Benerro's preaching finding fertile ground with increasing numbers of their own population , among other things.

Then, of course , while I think Dany was the target in the matter of the locusts, I don't think the "poison" was meant to kill , but only to cause her to abort later in the day, if she was carrying a child of Daario's. I've gone into this in much more detail in a number of places , most recently, here : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119049-is-hizdahr-zo-loraq-innocent/page-7

We don't know what all of Skahaz's grievances are , but I'm sure we will eventually. In the meantime , I don't think the fact that he has grievances against the other great Masters should make us leap to conclude that he would risk poisoning Dany ( even inadvertantly) to break the peace.

He was happy when Dany took hostages , period... not that they were children.( It's the GG who says he'd like to feed them to Dany's dragons). And Dany, with her sensitivity for children , should never have taken child hostages that she was going to keep about her daily, and become fond of .. She was never going to treat them or even think of them as hostages. So all she accomplished was to provide the GG and Hizdahr with some "little birds" in her most private surroundings.

As I said, we don't know what "blood" is between Kandaq and Loraq.. we just might wind up feeling Skahaz's hatred had some justification. ... Kandaq is obviously looked down on by the GG and Hizdahr , at any rate. Why? Only because he allied himself with Dany?.. Seems like it might be a more long standing situation, to me.

One thing that I find very curious is the speed with which he turned his back on the past.. and we never hear him arguing to re-open the fighting pits or to compensate former slave owners.. yet surely, as a noble, he must have owned some slaves himself .

I keep having suspicions that he may have been involved in the olive trade.. Perhaps his family's livelihood was wiped out when the Wise Masters destroyed the vast olive groves outside Meereen in their scorched earth policy against Dany... ??? ... might explain his behaviour... to Hizdahr and the GG he might seem little better than a farmer ... Who gave Dany the idea to plant olive trees and watch them grow ?

At the same time , would he be above padding lists of names with those he felt had done him wrong ?.. probably not. Would that mean he was wrong or lying about everything else ? ... probably not.

I could say more about him, but it's too late tonight..

[SeanF]

The Handwipes - Barristan is certainly being manipulated by the Shavepate. But, overthrowing Hizdahr and attacking the Slavers before the Volantenes arrive is still the right course of action.

Bemused - there's a strange hiatus between the end of Dany's story in ASOS and its start in ADWD. How do you get from the Great Masters cowering in the Plaza to having their power and influence restored? How did the Shavepate, Green Grace, and Reznak persuade Dany they could be trusted (when all three might have been cowering in the Plaza?)

My view is that the Shavepate is an opportunist, who sees Dany as a means to advance his family, and to avenge grudges. I don't doubt he was a slaver, and a cruel one.

[Amris]

My intent was to state my opinion as asked by the thread. I felt no need to censor myself to protect the feelings of an anonymous person due to public reception of an opinion they posted to the internet.

If you're offended that I compared your own negatively... take it in context.

I said MB wasn't great - because I disagree with significant parts of it.

I said yours was worse - because I disagree more with significant parts of it.

Neither are bad, they clearly have a lot of work put into them.

To rephrase my original post:

Butterbumps' is pretty good, MB is slightly better regarding Jon, but neither are great.

It's a discussion of their idea - the express purpose of internet forums - not their naughty bits.

Allow me to add my 2 cents: What I have a bit of a problem with is not the fact that other fans' theories are being discussed or critisized. On the contrary. What I find a little strange in this thread however is that some posts are very judgemental. Regardless of whether one agrees with a theory or not, calling someone's blogs - or theories - which they have spent a lot of effort on - simply 'bad' or 'worse' seems rather rude to me.

I think the way to go is to more argue about facts and judge less.

[AdmiralKyrd]

Allow me to add my 2 cents: What I have a bit of a problem with is not the fact that other fans' theories are being discussed or critisized. On the contrary. What I find a little strange in this thread however is that some posts are very judgemental. Regardless of whether one agrees with a theory or not, calling someone's blogs - or theories - which they have spent a lot of effort on - simply 'bad' or 'worse' seems rather rude to me. I think the way to go is to more argue about facts and judge less.

The fact that people get really uppity and have their own, sometimes severely divergent opinions is just a testament to the mystery GRRM has scripted. It's possible and poetically ironic that, if there is no centralized harpy and its all about decentralized feuds in Meereen, that the fanbase's personality and analyses are a giant echo of the storyline itself.

Also I reread Barristan's chapters tonight. Barristan actually believes that offering the hostages weight in gold will drive a rift between the sellsword captains and the Yunkish leaders. He's banking that the sellswords will protect the hostages to preserve and acquire the ransom, and it will tear their army apart inside. I stand by my reasoning that they have escaped based on Groleo's execution though, regardless of Barristan's possible conclusion(s). It's more of a guessing leap though that doesn't justify itself based on the direct text, but the answers that it allows for elsewhere in the Meereen chapters opens up too many doors. Barristan doesn't have to believe it for it to be an incredible answer.

Barristan's no dummy certainly, he simply has no head for politics. After speaking to the confectioner he does exactly what the Shavepate suggests, remove Hizdahr from power. The fact that he questions himself only proves he's not fool, but he still makes a mistake. I'm not sure where from the above text you got the idea the hostages escaped and Barristan knows it. He's got something up his sleave but I think its military strategy, something i'm confidant he will continue to excel at.

Because the Skahaz knows when war does come, they're all dead if Hizdahr is in control still singing peace songs when they should be preparing for battle. The Volantene Fleet means one thing - war is inevitable. Barristan knows this as well. If Barristan had heard that Volantis had launched its navy against them, he would probably be launching the coup.

He does exactly what the Shavepate said because it is prudent advice. It's the same thing with Dany marrying Hizdahr. Marrying into the culture you have dominion over is a good way to bridge the gap between the new ruler and its people. Some people look at the Green Grace and point the finger that she is the harpy, because, well, the killings stop, therefore she's behind it all. But on the other end of the spectrum if she is really trying to help Dany, giving her good advice Dany wants to end the bloodshed, then you would expect if she follows that advice the killings will stop as well. It's not so different from Orys Baratheon marrying Argella Durrandon after Aegon's Conquest

According to a lot of fan speculation, Galare is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. Apparently, the only way she's vindicated is if she gives sucky advice. There's actually a very specific situation in the text that supports Galare is trying to help Dany, but we're lead to believe the Green Grace is being a douche through Dany's ignorance and bias rather than trying to help her.

Meereen is a story about what happens when a foreign culture takes over another and tries to impose progressive social beliefs on a region that is not ready for them. The fact that all of Dany's Meereenese advisers seem to distrust each other seems to support the feuding nature of the various families and factions in the city.

I don't see the Shavepate, or the Green Grace, or Reznak as anything but opportunists or people who don't want to see their city totally bleed. I don't think they love Dany, they might even scorn her and be doing their own things behind closed doors, but I don't think they're all out to get Dany and oust her.

[Mithras]

bemused,

Shakaz tried everything with Dany on the Harpy problem. He tried to put some sense into her head but she just refused to listen.

“Your Grace. Skahaz awaits your pleasure.”

“Send him up.”

The Shavepate was accompanied by two of his Brazen Beasts. One wore a hawk mask, the other the likeness of a jackal. Only their eyes could be seen behind the brass. “Your Radiance, Hizdahr was seen to enter the pyramid of Zhak last evening. He did not depart until well after dark.”

“How many pyramids has he visited?” asked Dany.

“Eleven.”

“And how long since the last murder?”

“Six-and-twenty days.” The Shavepate’s eyes brimmed with fury. It had been his notion to have the Brazen Beasts follow her betrothed and take note of all his actions.

“So far Hizdahr has made good on his promises.”

“How? The Sons of the Harpy have put down their knives, but why? Because the noble Hizdahr asked sweetly? He is one of them, I tell you. That’s why they obey him. He may well be the Harpy.”

“If there is a Harpy.” Skahaz was convinced that somewhere in Meereen the Sons of the Harpy had a highborn overlord, a secret general commanding an army of shadows. Dany did not share his belief. The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. It would have been pleasant to think that all the deaths were the work of a single enemy who might be caught and killed, but Dany suspected that the truth was otherwise. My enemies are legion. “Hizdahr zo Loraq is a persuasive man with many friends. And he is wealthy. Perhaps he has bought this peace for us with gold, or convinced the other highborn that our marriage is in their best interests.”

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”

“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.”

“Your Radiance—”

“No, I said.”

The Shavepate’s scowl turned his ugly face even uglier. “A mistake. The Great Master Hizdahr plays Your Worship for a fool. Do you want a serpent in your bed?”

I want Daario in my bed, but I sent him away for the sake of you and yours. “You may continue to watch Hizdahr zo Loraq, but no harm is to come to him. Is that understood?”

“I am not deaf, Magnificence. I will obey.” Skahaz drew a parchment scroll from his sleeve. “Your Worship should have a look at this. A list of all the Meereenese ships in the blockade, with their captains. Great Masters all.”

Dany studied the scroll. All the ruling families of Meereen were named: Hazkar, Merreq, Quazzar, Zhak, Rhazdar, Ghazeen, Pahl, even Reznak and Loraq. “What am I to do with a list of names?”

“Every man on that list has kin within the city. Sons and brothers, wives and daughters, mothers and fathers. Let my Brazen Beasts seize them. Their lives will win you back those ships.”

“If I send the Brazen Beasts into the pyramids, it will mean open war inside the city. I have to trust in Hizdahr. I have to hope for peace.” Dany held the parchment above a candle and watched the names go up in flame, while Skahaz glowered at her.

Afterward, Ser Barristan told her that her brother Rhaegar would have been proud of her. Dany remembered the words Ser Jorah had spoken at Astapor: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.

Whatever his motivations are, Shakaz always counselled the right course of action to Dany (although his methods were cruel but hey, he had to be cruel because the way Dany's reign started in Meereen left no choice but cruelty - one cannot start reigning by crucifying 163 Great Masters and then remember to be merciful to the point of complete yielding). He is an opportunist who seeks to avenge his old feuds but he cast his lots with Dany and they will rise and fall together. He was right in telling that she should have marched Astapor. His was the only method to deal with the Harpy problem at that point of the story. It was very obvious that Hizdahr was in league with the Harpy as he pointed but Dany refused to listen. The agreement between the Harpy and Dany had to be broken irreparably and a poisoning attempt which was to be blamed on the Harpy would do the trick. After Dany's departure with Drogon, Hizdahr needed to be removed to break the siege and prepare for the arrival of the Volantene Fleet. That is what he did.

[OldGimletEye]

The Handwipes - Barristan is certainly being manipulated by the Shavepate. But, overthrowing Hizdahr and attacking the Slavers before the Volantenes arrive is still the right course of action.

It's troubling that Barristan doesn't really figure out the Shavepate is up to. Also, I think it's strange that Barristan is shocked about the news of the Volantese Fleet. Apparently, he doesn't understand the geo-politics of SB any better than Dany does.

But, yeah, I agree that ultimately Barristan had little choice but to stage a coup and remove Hizdahr from power. After the events of Daznak's Pit, then any chance for a secure peace were pretty much gone. Once Barristan learns that the Volantese fleet is en route to SB, he has little choice but to act quickly and decisively before the Volantese Fleet arrives. The only tactical choice left is to engage Mereen's enemies in a series of battles before they can unite against Mereen. Even if Hizdahr wasn't a mere pawn of the Harpy, he certainly doesn't seem like the type to act quickly and decisively.

[Mithras]

Also, I think it's strange that Barristan is shocked about the news of the Volantese Fleet. Apparently, he doesn't understand the geo-politics of SB any better than Dany does.

I would love to see how Dany would react to that. In fact, we can guess her reaction because she thought that she did nothing to antagonize Qarth and she was shocked that the Qartheen joined the Yunkish Federation too.

[Kyoshi]

bemused,

Shakaz tried everything with Dany on the Harpy problem. He tried to put some sense into her head but she just refused to listen.

“Your Grace. Skahaz awaits your pleasure.”

“Send him up.”

The Shavepate was accompanied by two of his Brazen Beasts. One wore a hawk mask, the other the likeness of a jackal. Only their eyes could be seen behind the brass. “Your Radiance, Hizdahr was seen to enter the pyramid of Zhak last evening. He did not depart until well after dark.”

“How many pyramids has he visited?” asked Dany.

“Eleven.”

“And how long since the last murder?”

“Six-and-twenty days.” The Shavepate’s eyes brimmed with fury. It had been his notion to have the Brazen Beasts follow her betrothed and take note of all his actions.

“So far Hizdahr has made good on his promises.”

“How? The Sons of the Harpy have put down their knives, but why? Because the noble Hizdahr asked sweetly? He is one of them, I tell you. That’s why they obey him. He may well be the Harpy.”

“If there is a Harpy.” Skahaz was convinced that somewhere in Meereen the Sons of the Harpy had a highborn overlord, a secret general commanding an army of shadows. Dany did not share his belief. The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. It would have been pleasant to think that all the deaths were the work of a single enemy who might be caught and killed, but Dany suspected that the truth was otherwise. My enemies are legion. “Hizdahr zo Loraq is a persuasive man with many friends. And he is wealthy. Perhaps he has bought this peace for us with gold, or convinced the other highborn that our marriage is in their best interests.”

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”

“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.”

“Your Radiance—”

“No, I said.”

The Shavepate’s scowl turned his ugly face even uglier. “A mistake. The Great Master Hizdahr plays Your Worship for a fool. Do you want a serpent in your bed?”

I want Daario in my bed, but I sent him away for the sake of you and yours. “You may continue to watch Hizdahr zo Loraq, but no harm is to come to him. Is that understood?”

“I am not deaf, Magnificence. I will obey.” Skahaz drew a parchment scroll from his sleeve. “Your Worship should have a look at this. A list of all the Meereenese ships in the blockade, with their captains. Great Masters all.”

Dany studied the scroll. All the ruling families of Meereen were named: Hazkar, Merreq, Quazzar, Zhak, Rhazdar, Ghazeen, Pahl, even Reznak and Loraq. “What am I to do with a list of names?”

“Every man on that list has kin within the city. Sons and brothers, wives and daughters, mothers and fathers. Let my Brazen Beasts seize them. Their lives will win you back those ships.”

“If I send the Brazen Beasts into the pyramids, it will mean open war inside the city. I have to trust in Hizdahr. I have to hope for peace.” Dany held the parchment above a candle and watched the names go up in flame, while Skahaz glowered at her.

Afterward, Ser Barristan told her that her brother Rhaegar would have been proud of her. Dany remembered the words Ser Jorah had spoken at Astapor: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.

Whatever his motivations are, Shakaz always counselled the right course of action to Dany (although his methods were cruel but hey, he had to be cruel because the way Dany's reign started in Meereen left no choice but cruelty - one cannot start reigning by crucifying 163 Great Masters and then remember to be merciful to the point of complete yielding). He is an opportunist who seeks to avenge his old feuds but he cast his lots with Dany and they will rise and fall together. He was right in telling that she should have marched Astapor. His was the only method to deal with the Harpy problem at that point of the story. It was very obvious that Hizdahr was in league with the Harpy as he pointed but Dany refused to listen. The agreement between the Harpy and Dany had to be broken irreparably and a poisoning attempt which was to be blamed on the Harpy would do the trick. After Dany's departure with Drogon, Hizdahr needed to be removed to break the siege and prepare for the arrival of the Volantene Fleet. That is what he did.

Just to clarify, are we now saying that his counsel is always the right course of action? Are we now saying that the torture he suggests and subsequently conducts is coolio. I also love how in one post Dany is both responsible and innocent of all things evil in Meereen.

[AdmiralKyrd]

As far as the Green Grace goes, GRRM uses the unreliable narrator to cloud the reader's vision. Galare is trying to help Dany. How? Let's look at this encounter in the middle of ADWD. Dany is opening her doors for petitioners, and the Green Grace shows up.

It had been so long since she last held court that the crush of cases was almost overwhelming. The back of the hall was a solid press of people, and scuffles broke out over precedence. Inevitably it was Galazza Galare who stepped forward, her head held high, her face hidden behind a shimmering green veil.

Galare: Your Radiance, it might be best were we to speak in private.

Daenerys: Would that I had the time. I am to be wed upon the morrow. Her last meeting with the Green Grace had not gone well. What would you have of me?

Galare: I would speak to you about the presumption of a certain sellsword captain.

She dares say that in open court? Dany felt a blaze of anger. She has courage, I grant that, but if she thinks I am about to suffer another scolding, she could not be more wrong.

Daenerys: The treachery of Brown Ben Plumm has shocked us all, but your warning comes too late. And now I know you will want to return to your temple to pray for peace.

Galare: The Green Grace bowed. I shall pray for you as well.

Another slap, thought Dany, color rising to her face.

Why would the Green Grace wait outside to be the first person in line to scold Dany about... Brown Ben Plumm? That news is old - its been known for quite some time, weeks, maybe even a month.

And whats the point of scolding her about it? It won't do any good. Dany doesn't even hide talking about it in front of the court and her other petitioners, its not something that needs to be discussed in private.

Thirdly, if Galare is trying to scold Dany, why would she request a private audience? She wouldn't. She would scold her about it in front of her open court, and she wouldn't climb to the top of the pyramid and wait there all morning for Dany to open her doors.

It doesn't make sense.

So what is the Green Grace trying to say?

She's trying to warn her about something with Daario, not Brown Ben Plumm. She's urgently trying to bring Dany the best possible new information she has ever gotten in Meereen, but Dany throws it away, because Dany assumes Galare is just being an ass. Dany's reply is essentially a meek version of "stfu & gtfo." Galare is rightly pissed shes gone through all this trouble and gives her own version of "wow, screw you" and leaves.

The Green Grace is actually trying to help Dany, the problem is that Dany has her own judgement clouded and is being dumb.

In addition, what happened in the previous meeting with the Green Grace that Dany was referencing?

It's about a scene where Galare and Reznak advise Dany that she needs to have her wedding in keeping with Meereenese tradition to appease the noble families. This is good advice. This is real advice that Dany should take to heart. It's Dany that hates the advice because she doesn't want to wear her "floppy ears." Galare is not trying to scold her, she's trying to help her. Dany is being unrealistic about changing the culture of Meereen overnight, and Galare is trying to get her to see the situation from the populous' view. If you want the people to follow you, you have to at least partake in their traditions. Dany is the one who isn't being receptive.

It's weird, because she has been through this whole spiel with the Dothraki culture, integrating into their society and becoming one of them - drawing the line finally at slavery. The irony is she treats the Meereenese the same way Viserys looked at the Dothraki. Danys changed; shes not the same person we once knew.

Fire and Blood.

But, yeah, I agree that ultimately Barristan had little choice but to stage a coup and remove Hizdahr from power. After the events of Daznak's pit, then any chance for a secure peace were pretty much gone. Once Barristan learns that the Volantese fleet is en route to SB, he has little choice but to act quickly and decisively before the Volantese Fleet arrives. The only tactical choice left is to engage Mereen's enemies in a series of battles before they can unite against Mereen. Even if Hizdahr wasn't a mere pawn of the Harpy, he certainly doesn't seem like the type to act quickly and decisively.

If I had to analogize it, the Shavepate is Meereen's Littlefinger. The Green Grace is its Varys.

[Ygrain]

Why would the Green Grace wait outside to be the first person in line to scold Dany about... Brown Ben Plumm? That news is old - its been known for quite some time, weeks, maybe even a month.

And whats the point of scolding her about it? It won't do any good. Dany doesn't even hide talking about it in front of the court and her other petitioners, its not something that needs to be discussed in private.

Thirdly, if Galare is trying to scold Dany, why would she request a private audience? She wouldn't. She would scold her about it in front of her open court, and she wouldn't climb to the top of the pyramid and wait there all morning for Dany to open her doors.

It doesn't make sense.

So what is the Green Grace trying to say?

She's trying to warn her about something with Daario, not Brown Ben Plumm. She's urgently trying to bring Dany the best possible new information she has ever gotten in Meereen, but Dany throws it away, because Dany assumes Galare is just being an ass. Dany's reply is essentially a meek version of "stfu & gtfo." Galare is rightly pissed shes gone through all this trouble and gives her own version of "wow, screw you" and leaves.

Ehm... I believe Dany knows from the very beginning that this is going to be about Daario - about his arrogance, namely boasting that he is bedding her, which disgraces Hizdahr as her future husband. That's why she gets so angry that GG is bringing this up in public, and hopes to shut the issue by pretending it's about Brown Ben.

In addition, what happened in the previous meeting with the Green Grace that Dany was referencing?

It's about a scene where Galare and Reznak advise Dany that she needs to have her wedding in keeping with Meereenese tradition to appease the noble families. This is good advice. This is real advice that Dany should take to heart. It's Dany that hates the advice because she doesn't want to wear her "floppy ears." Galare is not trying to scold her, she's trying to help her. Dany is being unrealistic about changing the culture of Meereen overnight, and Galare is trying to get her to see the situation from the populous' view. If you want the people to follow you, you have to at least partake in their traditions. Dany is the one who isn't being receptive.

Dany hates the advice because its parts are downright humiliating for her, and as a conquering queen, unacceptable.

[cade]

GeneralKird, you seem to agree with Barristan after all that the Green Grace was a "faithful friend to Daenerys." I think Barristan was way out of his depth. At least (contrary to this forum's revisionist history) Dany had been suspicious of the Green Grace ("Has Reznak made common cause with Hizdahr and the Green Grace and set some trap to snare me?" Daenerys IV) and stood up to her.

I agree that she was referring to Daario, but not to help Dany. She wanted Dany to honor her impending marriage to Hizdahr, just as she tried to get Dany to honor a bunch of other Meereenese cultural traditions. She's a conservative religious figure.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the weavers who'd defied the Green Grace's cousin were raped and murdered. The next day the Green Grace met with Dany and said she'd been "told" about it.

It's about a scene where Galare and Reznak advise Dany that she needs to have her wedding in keeping with Meereenese tradition to appease the noble families. This is good advice. This is real advice that Dany should take to heart. It's Dany that hates the advice because she doesn't want to wear her "floppy ears." Galare is not trying to scold her, she's trying to help her. Dany is being unrealistic about changing the culture of Meereen overnight, and Galare is trying to get her to see the situation from the populous' view. If you want the people to follow you, you have to at least partake in their traditions. Dany is the one who isn't being receptive.

It's weird, because she has been through this whole spiel with the Dothraki culture, integrating into their society and becoming one of them - drawing the line finally at slavery. The irony is she treats the Meereenese the same way Viserys looked at the Dothraki. Danys changed; shes not the same person we once knew.

No, while Dany was disgusted by aspects of their culture, she took many steps to accommodate the Meereenese (and keep in mind she used this term almost exclusively for the slavers/free citizens of Meereen, who were almost certainly a small minority of the population, especially after the influx of around 70,000 freed slaves from Astapor and Yunkai), including wearing the "floppy ears," agreeing to wed under the gods of Ghis in the Temple of Graces and letting Hizdahr open the fighting pits.

Her problem with the Green Grace is that she didn't want to be molested by Hizdahr's relatives, and she felt so insulted that she refused to eat some special cake with them. Then she agreed to wash Hizdahr's feet so long as he washed hers first. And the actual husband-to-be was fine with all of that: “These rituals are empty,” Hizdahr declared, “just the sort of thing we must sweep aside. Meereen has been steeped in these foolish old traditions for too long.” He kissed her hand and said, “Daenerys, my queen, I will gladly wash you from head to heel if that is what I must do to be your king and consort.”

[AdmiralKyrd]

Ehm... I believe Dany knows from the very beginning that this is going to be about Daario - about his arrogance, namely boasting that he is bedding her, which disgraces Hizdahr as her future husband. That's why she gets so angry that GG is bringing this up in public, and hopes to shut the issue by pretending it's about Brown Ben.

Dany hates the advice because its parts are downright humiliating for her, and as a conquering queen, unacceptable.

I never thought of it like Dany does assume that its about Daario - and that makes more sense. But even so, we never hear Galare actually speak what she comes to say. She never just goes specifically out of her way to scold her elsewhere. It's the day before her wedding... its going to do little good. Why waste her time? The scolding is coming from what Dany's POV bias is trying to tell us, and its circumspect. I think she has more to say about Daario, especially if she's been keeping a watchful eye on him due to her conservationism. I guess we'll see.

GeneralKird, you seem to agree with Barristan after all that the Green Grace was a "faithful friend to Daenerys." I think Barristan was way out of his depth. At least (contrary to this forum's revisionist history) Dany had been suspicious of the Green Grace ("Has Reznak made common cause with Hizdahr and the Green Grace and set some trap to snare me?" Daenerys IV) and stood up to her.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the weavers who'd defied the Green Grace's cousin were raped and murdered. The next day the Green Grace met with Dany and said she'd been "told" about it.

No, while Dany was disgusted by aspects of their culture, she took many steps to accommodate the Meereenese (and keep in mind she used this term almost exclusively for the slavers/free citizens of Meereen, who were almost certainly a small minority of the population, especially after the influx of around 70,000 freed slaves from Astapor and Yunkai), including wearing the "floppy ears," agreeing to wed under the gods of Ghis in the Temple of Graces and letting Hizdahr open the fighting pits.

Her problem with the Green Grace is that she didn't want to be molested by Hizdahr's relatives, and she felt so insulted that she refused to eat some special cake with them. Then she agreed to wash Hizdahr's feet so long as he washed hers first. And the actual husband-to-be was fine with all of that: “These rituals are empty,” Hizdahr declared, “just the sort of thing we must sweep aside. Meereen has been steeped in these foolish old traditions for too long.” He kissed her hand and said, “Daenerys, my queen, I will gladly wash you from head to heel if that is what I must do to be your king and consort.”

I believe Galare just wants to maintain the status quo in the city. That doesn't mean she's a friend to Dany, but it doesn't mean she's betraying her either. She gives Dany the best advice she can, and if she follows it, she follows it. If not... w/e. It's not a "you're either with me or you're against me," sort of situation

I don't know what happened with the weavers. It sounds like House Galare was probably involved. But it doesn't mean she's the overall harpy and that she is constantly plotting against Dany.

The Green Grace hears lots of things. She's the center of culture and religion in the city. It's no surprise that she is told information.

You make it sound like Dany humbly agrees to do all these things for the nobles of Meereen - she complains about their culture every step of the way during this process. She's trying to impose her belief of what is right and what is wrong in a place where people believe differently, and telling them their traditions are unacceptable. It's really insulting to them. There's no way she would eat a raw horse heart if the Meereenese said it was part of their tradition. She's changed.

Hizdahr just doesn't care. He's got a free ticket to be King and that's what matters to him. He just wants to agree with Dany and not give her any reason to break off the marriage.

[Elessar]

Only had time to read the Jon essay and it's well done. I don't agree with much of the interpretation but it made me think. Reading Daenerys now.