[TWOIAF Spoilers] Stark Lineage

[Colonel Green]

The ordering of the wives of Cregan Stark isn't given, but my guesses based on the text:

Per the Stark family section, the death of Cregan Stark's son Rickon during the invasion of Dorne was lamented in the North in later years due to the troubles during the reigns of his half-brothers. That clearly indicates that the Cregan Stark/Arra Norrey marriage was before the marriage of Cregan and his distant cousin Lynara Stark, which produces Lords Jonnel, Barthogan, and Brandon (who was in turn the father of Beron).

Cregan and Black Aly Blackwood had four daughters, none of whom are listed as being married, which suggests they didn't live to adulthood. Cregan married Black Aly circa 131 AC; Rickon, his first son by another woman, had to be old enough to fight in the invasion of Dorne, which started in 156 AC, and he also had two daughters, who were subsequently of an age to marry his half-brothers later.

So based on this, I would guess the order was Black Aly, then Arra Norrey, then Lynara Stark.

We knew in the past that the North has never had a ruling lady, and this would be the most obvious instance of it, as Rickon's daughters, Serena (the elder) and Sansa (the younger) were passed over in favour of their uncles, though by strict succession they should have succeeded Cregan. Perhaps tellingly, both Serena and Sansa were married to their uncles, Edric and Jonnel, respectively. Which meant that Sansa probably became the Lady of Winterfell for at least a time (he had two wives, so no indications as to the ordering of the marriages or when they occured), though they had no children, so the lordship passed to Barthogan on Jonnel's death -- also of note, as the children are numbered, that the lordship jumped over second son Edric's line (I'm assuming Edric was dead by the time Jonnel died, since he didn't become lord) by Serena and descended to third son Barthogan, then to fourth son Brandon. I was initially wondering if the uncles did a straight case of claim-jacking with their nieces, but that doesn't quite work (Jonnel should have married Serena if that was the case), though it's hard not to suspect those marriages were politically motivated.

In the thread on Targaryen lineage I noted the temporal proximity of the marriages of Willam Stark/Melantha Blackwood and Aegon V/Betha Blackwood. Minor modification there, as Willam had two wives, the other being Lyanne Glover, the mother other Brandon Stark, who we're told died at the age of three and was Edwyle's younger brother. Given that Aegon V married Betha in 220 AC and Willam died in 226 AC at Long Lake, there wasn't likely to be much, if any, overlap between the periods when the two couples were married, but they're still most likely sisters, given the timeframe.

[OberynBlackfyre]

The ordering of the wives of Cregan Stark isn't given, but my guesses based on the text:

Per the Stark family section, the death of Cregan Stark's son Rickon during the invasion of Dorne was lamented in the North in later years due to the troubles during the reigns of his half-brothers. That clearly indicates that the Cregan Stark/Arra Norrey marriage was before the marriage of Cregan and his distant cousin Lynara Stark, which produces Lords Jonnel, Barthogan, and Brandon (who was in turn the father of Beron).

Cregan and Black Aly Blackwood had four daughters, none of whom are listed as being married, which suggests they didn't live to adulthood. Cregan married Black Aly circa 131 AC; Rickon, his first son by another woman, had to be old enough to fight in the invasion of Dorne, which started in 156 AC, and he also had two daughters, who were subsequently of an age to marry his half-brothers later.

So based on this, I would guess the order was Black Aly, then Arra Norrey, then Lynara Stark.

We knew in the past that the North has never had a ruling lady, and this would be the most obvious instance of it, as Rickon's daughters, Serena (the elder) and Sansa (the younger) were passed over in favour of their uncles, though by strict succession they should have succeeded Cregan. Perhaps tellingly, both Serena and Sansa were married to their uncles, Edric and Jonnel, respectively. Which meant that Sansa probably became the Lady of Winterfell for at least a time (he had two wives, so no indications as to the ordering of the marriages or when they occured), though they had no children, so the lordship passed to Barthogan on Jonnel's death -- also of note, as the children are numbered, that the lordship jumped over second son Edric's line (I'm assuming Edric was dead by the time Jonnel died, since he didn't become lord) by Serena and descended to third son Barthogan, then to fourth son Brandon. I was initially wondering if the uncles did a straight case of claim-jacking with their nieces, but that doesn't quite work (Jonnel should have married Serena if that was the case), though it's hard not to suspect those marriages were politically motivated.

In the thread on Targaryen lineage I noted the temporal proximity of the marriages of Willam Stark/Melantha Blackwood and Aegon V/Betha Blackwood. Minor modification there, as Willam had two wives, the other being Lyanne Glover, the mother other Brandon Stark, who we're told died at the age of three and was Edwyle's younger brother. Given that Aegon V married Betha in 220 AC and Willam died in 226 AC at Long Lake, there wasn't likely to be much, if any, overlap between the periods when the two couples were married, but they're still most likely sisters, given the timeframe.

It's also a connection that the Starks/Targaryens had to the Blackwoods.........which I'm actually surprised at how much the Blackwoods are intertwined to powerful Houses, yet they have never used the obvious connection to these Houses in their wars with the Brackens......

either way, House Blackwood is one of my fav Houses and am glad to hear and see more of them!

[Northern light]

"Cregan and Black Aly Blackwood had four daughters, none of whom are listed as being married, which suggests they didn't live to adulthood."

I got the impression that just because they aren't listed as married doesn't mean that they weren't, they are just not of interest for the main branch.

[Colonel Green]

I got the impression that just because they aren't listed as married doesn't mean that they weren't, they are just not of interest for the main branch.

There are numerous other non-main branches where "issue", etc. are listed.

Speaking of which, I thought it was interesting that Artos the Implacable's two sons, Brandon and Benjen, have unspecified "issue". Perhaps there are still some other reasonably-proximate Starks kicking around the North.

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah, I don't think it can be assumed they didn't marry or have children just because none are listed. We already know Egg's sisters had children, but from what I am told no husbands or children are listed for them. I think it is just a matter of not taking up space with lines that are not pertinent to the main line.

[Colonel Green]

As it's the marriage of daughters, their offspring wouldn't have been listed, only their husbands. Based on the list formatting, this wouldn't pose a space problem, if they existed.

[Ran]

GRRM didn't want to invent endless names at a certain point in time, so yes, a lack of a marriage does not mean a marriage did not happen, he just hasn't figured out the details.

[Lowborn]

Not from the Stark tree, but Stark related: I find it interesting that it was supposedly Lord Rickard Stark who defeated the Marsh King and married his daughter, incorporating the Crannogmen into his rule. That Rickard was Lord, not King, implies that it was after the conquest. So were the crannogmen independent from Targaryen rule until this happened? I find this hard to believe, is it an error?

[LordBloodraven]

I think they value the blood of First Men first and foremost (Blackwoods & Royces are of such kind, regardless where they come from - of course it is good to be from the neighbouring lands). Prestige over material factors, I think.

When Robb married the Westerling girl, the fact that they claim descent from the First Men was the first thing Robb said to Cat.

Underwhelmed by the quality of quality?

Well, we know most of what was said. Sometimes it was quite generic (the Kings of Winter repulsed this....did that... No names).

The ordering of the wives of Cregan Stark isn't given, but my guesses based on the text:

Per the Stark family section, the death of Cregan Stark's son Rickon during the invasion of Dorne was lamented in the North in later years due to the troubles during the reigns of his half-brothers. That clearly indicates that the Cregan Stark/Arra Norrey marriage was before the marriage of Cregan and his distant cousin Lynara Stark, which produces Lords Jonnel, Barthogan, and Brandon (who was in turn the father of Beron).

Cregan and Black Aly Blackwood had four daughters, none of whom are listed as being married, which suggests they didn't live to adulthood. Cregan married Black Aly circa 131 AC; Rickon, his first son by another woman, had to be old enough to fight in the invasion of Dorne, which started in 156 AC, and he also had two daughters, who were subsequently of an age to marry his half-brothers later.

So based on this, I would guess the order was Black Aly, then Arra Norrey, then Lynara Stark.

We knew in the past that the North has never had a ruling lady, and this would be the most obvious instance of it, as Rickon's daughters, Serena (the elder) and Sansa (the younger) were passed over in favour of their uncles, though by strict succession they should have succeeded Cregan. Perhaps tellingly, both Serena and Sansa were married to their uncles, Edric and Jonnel, respectively. Which meant that Sansa probably became the Lady of Winterfell for at least a time (he had two wives, so no indications as to the ordering of the marriages or when they occured), though they had no children, so the lordship passed to Barthogan on Jonnel's death -- also of note, as the children are numbered, that the lordship jumped over second son Edric's line (I'm assuming Edric was dead by the time Jonnel died, since he didn't become lord) by Serena and descended to third son Barthogan, then to fourth son Brandon. I was initially wondering if the uncles did a straight case of claim-jacking with their nieces, but that doesn't quite work (Jonnel should have married Serena if that was the case), though it's hard not to suspect those marriages were politically motivated.

In the thread on Targaryen lineage I noted the temporal proximity of the marriages of Willam Stark/Melantha Blackwood and Aegon V/Betha Blackwood. Minor modification there, as Willam had two wives, the other being Lyanne Glover, the mother other Brandon Stark, who we're told died at the age of three and was Edwyle's younger brother. Given that Aegon V married Betha in 220 AC and Willam died in 226 AC at Long Lake, there wasn't likely to be much, if any, overlap between the periods when the two couples were married, but they're still most likely sisters, given the timeframe.

I think Arra Norrey (Rickon's mother) was the first wife. The MUSH is only partially canon but it puts the order as Arra Norrey, then Black Aly, then Lynara Stark.

We can easily imagine why Sansa and Serena were married with their half-uncles. But I believe Jonnel was the Lord of Winterfell, not just a Consort to the Lady. If we go by his statue in the crypts.

What happened to Edric and his children is interesting. They married into powerful Northern families (Umber and Cerwyn) yet were not Lords of Winterfell even if they preceded their uncles/cousins in the succession. I guess the next Dunk and Egg will tell us more about it.

I agree on the Betha/Melantha relationship. They could be cousins also.

[Colonel Green]

But I believe Jonnel was the Lord of Winterfell, not just a Consort to the Lady. If we go by his statue in the crypts.

I meant Lady of Winterfell as consort, the same way Catelyn was.

I agree on the Betha/Melantha relationship. They could be cousins also.

Cousins would also be a possibility, but since Willam was Lord of Winterfell and that marriage occurred first, I expect a prestigious match of that sort would more likely have gone to a daughter of a lord rather than a cadet branch, particularly when the lord of the day had unmarried daughters (like Betha).

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I noticed that the book got rid of the Corbray that was married to Cregan in the preview and it became a Blackwood. Correct me if I'm wrong but besides Manderleys (who may be First Men who named the Mander and who are definitely more First Men than Andal after intermarrying in the North now) there are no Andal houses. Looking at the Durrandan line, how they fought the Andals over and over and beat them back only to marry them and be subsumed I can see why they would do this for safety.

Also, poor Arsa Stark. Who names their kid Arsa?

[Colonel Green]

I don't think not marrying Andals at this point has anything to do with "safety". The North is an established kingdom now; there's no threat of mass migration, which was what actually did in the old First Men kingdoms ("did in" in a very limited sense, anyway). Cregan, for that matter, was eager to marry a Targaryen into the family, and that's about as foreign as you can get.

One thing that I wonder about is that there was supposedly never a sept at Winterfell before Catelyn but Beron's wife was a Royce, and they follow the Faith, as far as we know. For that matter, several Starks married Manderlys. Maybe the previous Starks just weren't as considerate.

[Barty]

I don't think not marrying Andals at this point has anything to do with "safety". The North is an established kingdom now; there's no threat of mass migration, which was what actually did in the old First Men kingdoms ("did in" in a very limited sense, anyway). Cregan, for that matter, was eager to marry a Targaryen into the family, and that's about as foreign as you can get.

One thing that I wonder about is that there was supposedly never a sept at Winterfell before Catelyn but Beron's wife was a Royce, and they follow the Faith, as far as we know. For that matter, several Starks married Manderlys. Maybe the previous Starks just weren't as considerate.

I think its more to do with blood than faith. They marry the Manderlys who have first men blood and the Blackwoods and the Royces but resist strongly against a match with the pure Andal bloodline - Arynns (Torrhen's daughter).

The Targaryens are a different matter - its one thing marrying a foreigner and another marrying the royal bloodline. And perhaps Cregan already had a child who could carry on the pure first men bloodline(from his earlier marriage) and marrying a Targaryen was not for producing heirs but rather to gain further influence at court.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

When I say subsumed and 'safety' its not just migration and overthrow. The Durrandons were never overthrown by Andals (and arguably Argella maintained their line into House Baratheon), they married Andals for peace and over time abandoned their heritage and culture for the newcomers faith and culture. Despite the fact it was the Children who secured them their safety from the migration armies. Some would assume they stopped being First Men, they of course didn't. The Northerners are fiercely protective of that, which is probably why there was never a sept.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Not from the Stark tree, but Stark related: I find it interesting that it was supposedly Lord Rickard Stark who defeated the Marsh King and married his daughter, incorporating the Crannogmen into his rule. That Rickard was Lord, not King, implies that it was after the conquest. So were the crannogmen independent from Targaryen rule until this happened? I find this hard to believe, is it an error?

Well, that is not correct. The books state that the Rickard Stark who defeated the Marsh King was the son of Jon Stark who built the Wolf's Den. And the Wolf's Den predates the Manderly arrival in the North by many thousands of years. In fact, it predates the Rape of the Three Sisters (2000 years ago and now likely to be ordered by Theon Stark), by at least a thousand years, possibly two.

So it was definitely King Rodrik Stark, unless his father was still alive, and he was a younger son at the time that he conquered the Marsh King, only to become King Rodrik later in life.

[Colonel Green]

I think its more to do with blood than faith. They marry the Manderlys who have first men blood and the Blackwoods and the Royces but resist strongly against a match with the pure Andal bloodline - Arynns (Torrhen's daughter).

That's pretty dubious logic, since the Arryns, while an Andal-founded house, have intermarried extensively with the First Men, and the Blackwoods, Royces and Manderlys are heavily Andal.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

That's pretty dubious logic, since the Arryns, while an Andal-founded house, have intermarried extensively with the First Men, and the Blackwoods, Royces and Manderlys are heavily Andal.

But the Royce's keep their armour and the Manderlys most likely have northern wives who follow the old faith and pass knowledge of it on to the children. They don't seem like people likely to go on a conversion spree.

You could have hit it though, they don't let Andal bloodlines in no matter the blood cocktail especially Uber-Andals like Arryns. There was no Arryn marriage contract in the Rebellion alliance but they were ready to marry into the Tullys and Baratheons, diluted First Men lines.

[Colonel Green]

There was no Arryn marriage contract in the Rebellion alliance but they were ready to marry into the Tullys and Baratheons, diluted First Men lines.

Arryn didn't have any kids, and his indirect heirs were already married.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Arryn didn't have any kids, and his indirect heirs were already married.

I would have thought his three nieces were of Ned's generation. One married the Hardyng, one another Arryn and one was abducted but I can't find dates for their weddings.

[Barty]

Arryn didn't have any kids, and his indirect heirs were already married.

Who was Elbert Arynn married to?