[TWOIAF Spoilers] Stark Lineage

[Colonel Green]

Who was Elbert Arynn married to?

Actually, you're correct, he wasn't married. I was thinking of his father's marriage. All the same, Jon Arryn doesn't appear to have been interested in forming marriage alliances outside the Vale, otherwise he could have been negotiating to marry Elbert to Lysa or something.

[Barty]

Actually, you're correct, he wasn't married. I was thinking of his father's marriage. All the same, Jon Arryn doesn't appear to have been interested in forming marriage alliances outside the Vale, otherwise he could have been negotiating to marry Elbert to Lysa or something.

Lysa was betrothed to Jaime. No one wants to marry Arynns it seems :)

[Colonel Green]

Lysa was betrothed to Jaime. No one wants to marry Arynns it seems :)

Lysa was never betrothed to Jaime, and in any event, Jaime was off the market after he was named to the Kingsguard, but no moves were made.

[Barty]

Lysa was never betrothed to Jaime, and in any event, Jaime was off the market after he was named to the Kingsguard, but no moves were made.

I stand corrected.

[Minsc]

Lysa was never betrothed to Jaime,

There were hints that Tywin and Hoster were planning that though.

[Bael's Bastard]

There were hints that Tywin and Hoster were planning that though.

I thought Hoster offered Lysa for Jaime, and Tywin countered with Tyrion?

[Minsc]

I thought Hoster offered Lysa for Jaime, and Tywin countered with Tyrion?

IIRC, Tywin attempted to offer Tyrion after Aerys took Jaime into the Kingsguard. With it being Mama Martell that he offered Tyrion to instead of Jaime when she attempted to match their kids soon after Joanna's death.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Not from the Stark tree, but Stark related: I find it interesting that it was supposedly Lord Rickard Stark who defeated the Marsh King and married his daughter, incorporating the Crannogmen into his rule. That Rickard was Lord, not King, implies that it was after the conquest. So were the crannogmen independent from Targaryen rule until this happened? I find this hard to believe, is it an error?

Well, that is not correct. The books state that the Rickard Stark who defeated the Marsh King was the son of Jon Stark who built the Wolf's Den. And the Wolf's Den predates the Manderly arrival in the North by many thousands of years. In fact, it predates the Rape of the Three Sisters (2000 years ago and now likely to be ordered by Theon Stark), by at least a thousand years, possibly two.

So it was definitely King Rodrik Stark, unless his father was still alive, and he was a younger son at the time that he conquered the Marsh King, only to become King Rodrik later in life.

The actual text reads (at least in my eBook):

Whatever the truth, the last man to be called Marsh King was killed by King Rickard Stark (sometimes called the Laughing Wolf in the North, for his good nature), who took the man's daughter to wife, whereupon the crannonmen bent their knees and accepted the dominion of Winterfell.

[Lord Annaly]

Tywin and Hoster were at advanced stages of making the match between the young heir to the Rock and the maiden Tully.

, Cersei took him aside and whispered that

Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the

city to discuss dower.

There was also the not so subtle subterfuge by his lord mentor Lord Sumner Crakehall of sending young Jaime to Riverrun on minor errands so that he would get to know Lady Lysa but Jaime only had eyes for his hero, the Blackfish.

Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be

entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me

beside his daughter Lysa at every meal.

Small wonder you took the white. Id have done the same.

Oh, Lysa was not so fearsome as all that. She had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and

delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles,

with none of Cerseis fire. Her older sister had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was

promised to some northern boy, the heir of Winterfell... but at that age, no girl interested Jaime

half so much as Hosters famous brother, who had won renown fighting the Ninepenny Kings

upon the Stepstones. At table he had ignored poor Lysa, whilst pressing Brynden Tully for tales

of Maelys the Monstrous and the Ebon Prince

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

First time poster.

Just to say there's some really interesting stuff in the book, I ahd a quick read through it in town the other day.

Was just wondering if someone would be so kind as to post the Stark family tree here, so I can update my records? :)

[Mithras]

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

Donnor and Rodwell were not bolded as Lords in the tree but Bran listed them as Lords.

[House Volton]

How old does the stark tree go?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

How old does the stark tree go?

A generation before the Dance. No Kings of Winter.

[House Volton]

A generation before the Dance. No Kings of Winter

is the tree mostly the same as the preview one

[Lord Knightmare]

is the tree mostly the same as the preview one

Yeah pretty much

[LordBloodraven]

Anyone find it odd that in 200 years the Starks seems to not have married any of the big Northern Houses?

The current Stark are descended from Lockes, Glovers and members of the Northern clans (Flint, Norrey). The only "big" Houses are Royce, Karstark. No Bolton/Hornwood/Manderly/Dustin/Ryswell even if some of the indirect ancestors married into Houses Cerwyn/Umber/Manderly

[Veltigar]

that the lordship jumped over second son Edric's line (I'm assuming Edric was dead by the time Jonnel died, since he didn't become lord) by Serena and descended to third son Barthogan, then to fourth son Brandon. I was initially wondering if the uncles did a straight case of claim-jacking with their nieces, but that doesn't quite work (Jonnel should have married Serena if that was the case), though it's hard not to suspect those marriages were politically motivated.

I think there is a very simple explanation for passing over Edric's line and that of his children. They supported Daemon Blackfyre in an attempt to gain WF and lost the fight. Thus they were removed from succession. We know the Starks haven't always been the nice family orientated men we know in the main series, so it fits that pattern. There is also a genuine motive, since Serena should have been heir under the most widely practised rules of succession.

Serena had older children (one was married to a Cerwyn, the other to an Umber), while Jonnel and Sansa did not have children yet. Perhaps they saw an opportunity to claim WF and make sure their children got it. This would also provide a nice explanation for why there seems to have been absolutely no involvement of the North in the Blackfyre rebellion. Which is strange, since open fighting started in 195 AC and the battle of the Redgrass Field took place in the Riverlands in 196 AC. That's more than enough time for at least a fast response force (think of the Winter Wolves or the Manderleys during tPatQ) to take up arms. Perhaps they simply weren't mentioned, but I do doubt that.

I think a far likelier assumption is that the North had its own civil war going on. That explains why Edric's branch was cut-off from succesion, why the Starks did not enter the fray and it makes a good deal of sense. The North clings to the Starks, so the only way to create disunity is by giving each of the sides a Stark to fight for. With the succession being as muddy as it was at the time, the time was ripe for a major conflict. I don't know about anyone else, but I also feel like the BF-rebellion is made to look a lot less spontaneous by TWOIAF. Daemon seems to have been brooding for a lot longer than we previously thought (Daenerys marriage to Maron happened way before), so he could have had time to work his charm on the Starks. His advisors must have told him that there was only one way to get a Northern soldier on his side and that was by getting some Starks to fight for him.

Serena and Edric would have gotten Lord Umber and Lord Cerwyn on their side, their daughters appear to have married into those two houses. Jonnel probably had Lord Ryswell, since he was first married to a lady of that house. Through his brother Brandon he would have gotten the Karstarks I presume. The Manderleys were probably conflicted, seeing that both Sansa and Serena descended from them.

Now that I think of it, there seem to be some similarities between the Northern history of the time and the Targaryens. You have the female of the older bloodline (Daena and Serena), you have an opportunistic island taking advantage of the rebellion (Skagosi vs. Sunderlands and later on Greyjoys), Lord Jonnel was called one-eye (very BResque) and so on.

I think the theory neatly explains a lot of things from the Stark family tree. Edric died/was passed over due to his involvement with the BF, Barthogan died on Skagos, Brandon or Rodwell (probably Rodwell) died because of the Great Spring sickness and Beron was critically injured by the Ironborn. Jonnel and Brandon might have been killed in this Northern civil war as well.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think there is a very simple explanation for passing over Edric's line and that of his children. They supported Daemon Blackfyre in an attempt to gain WF and lost the fight. Thus they were removed from succession. We know the Starks haven't always been the nice family orientated men we know in the main series, so it fits that pattern. There is also a genuine motive, since Serena should have been heir under the most widely practised rules of succession.

Serena had older children (one was married to a Cerwyn, the other to an Umber), while Jonnel and Sansa did not have children yet. Perhaps they saw an opportunity to claim WF and make sure their children got it. This would also provide a nice explanation for why there seems to have been absolutely no involvement of the North in the Blackfyre rebellion. Which is strange, since open fighting started in 195 AC and the battle of the Redgrass Field took place in the Riverlands in 196 AC. That's more than enough time for at least a fast response force (think of the Winter Wolves or the Manderleys during tPatQ) to take up arms. Perhaps they simply weren't mentioned, but I do doubt that.

I think a far likelier assumption is that the North had its own civil war going on. That explains why Edric's branch was cut-off from succesion, why the Starks did not enter the fray and it makes a good deal of sense. The North clings to the Starks, so the only way to create disunity is by giving each of the sides a Stark to fight for. With the succession being as muddy as it was at the time, the time was ripe for a major conflict. I don't know about anyone else, but I also feel like the BF-rebellion is made to look a lot less spontaneous by TWOIAF. Daemon seems to have been brooding for a lot longer than we previously thought (Daenerys marriage to Maron happened way before), so he could have had time to work his charm on the Starks. His advisors must have told him that there was only one way to get a Northern soldier on his side and that was by getting some Starks to fight for him.

Serena and Edric would have gotten Lord Umber and Lord Cerwyn on their side, their daughters appear to have married into those two houses. Jonnel probably had Lord Ryswell, since he was first married to a lady of that house. Through his brother Brandon he would have gotten the Karstarks I presume. The Manderleys were probably conflicted, seeing that both Sansa and Serena descended from them.

Now that I think of it, there seem to be some similarities between the Northern history of the time and the Targaryens. You have the female of the older bloodline (Daena and Serena), you have an opportunistic island taking advantage of the rebellion (Skagosi vs. Sunderlands and later on Greyjoys), Lord Jonnel was called one-eye (very BResque) and so on.

I think the theory neatly explains a lot of things from the Stark family tree. Edric died/was passed over due to his involvement with the BF, Barthogan died on Skagos, Brandon or Rodwell (probably Rodwell) died because of the Great Spring sickness and Beron was critically injured by the Ironborn. Jonnel and Brandon might have been killed in this Northern civil war as well.

The Skagosi Rebellion was also around that time, IIRC.

Also, Cregan Stark probably died shortly before the Blackfyre Rebellion. Pretty much any place that had a guy ruling for nearly 70 years would have succession problems.

[Colonel Green]

Anyone find it odd that in 200 years the Starks seems to not have married any of the big Northern Houses?

The current Stark are descended from Lockes, Glovers and members of the Northern clans (Flint, Norrey). The only "big" Houses are Royce, Karstark. No Bolton/Hornwood/Manderly/Dustin/Ryswell even if some of the indirect ancestors married into Houses Cerwyn/Umber/Manderly

Some of that is just the way the succession worked out. There were two Manderly marriages to heirs (Lord Cregan's eldest son Rickon to Jeyne, and Lord Beron's elder son Rodwell to Myriame) that ended up not being the main line due to unclear circumstances in the first case and a lack of issue in the second. Lord Jonnel married a Ryswell, but they had no kids.