theory: Melisandre POV and evil UnJon

[RockyRagnarok]

I don't think Jon is dead dead, he may be temporarily dead and Warging into Ghost like Orell Warged into his Bird...My problem with that is Orell never returning to his body, Jon may need help on that front, maybe from Blood Raven who I feel is in service of the Realm (I think his goal is Pact 2.0) Jon is the True and Legitimate King of Westeros, anyone who thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't protect their Child with a Royal name and claim is kidding themselves, The 3 Kings Guard at the Tower all but confirm his birthright as Prince and future King...

I think GRRM has to give fans 1 freaking quasi happy ending and JON saving the Realm from the Wall and ruling from Winterfell as he helps rebuild the Wall is a pretty good start...Dany or Tyrion riding dragons and burning the Others and Jon to Ashes is as lame as it gets IMO...A Dwarf and an Entitled Princess from an incestuous marriage who has only made it this far with the help of Illyrio, Drogo, Jorah, Ser Barristan, Slave Armies and Mystics like MMD and Quaite, not to mention her 3 "children" who act as WMD's in This World...Fire and Blood and all that business...

I think Stannis or Mance could fall into the necessary role of Night's King or the Others' sentry...

It feels like some fans have become so jaded by the amount of death to befall their favorite characters that they don't want a Jon, Dany or Tyrion to "win or survive" because Ned lost his Head or Robb lost his head...Ned lost his head because he made the same mistake twice in not seizing the power to save his family at least until he got them all up North, he really could have saved everyone a great deal of trouble by Making himself KiTN and giving all the other Kingdoms their independence...The Lannisters, Baratheons, Tyrells, Martells, Greyjoys, Tullys, Arryns and Targaryens would have to settle for ruling their own Kingdoms as they all did before Aegon's conquest...

[The Reckoner]

George could also leave Jon's state ambiguous, laying hints for both an "un" state and a "healed from a nearly fatal wound" state.

[BalerionTheCat]

Robb being a friend has nothing to do with legitimacy. In fact I would consider that as soon a king has made one serious error, one could question the pertinence of his major rulings like cancelling sacred vows made before the gods. Beside AFAIK there is no precedent.

Most of those who died had made errors (Ned, Robb), not because they were too honorable. Others had no choice (Qhorin).

OK, most of Jon's dealings with Stannis team were borderline. But he had not much choice either. Taking the best decision (regarding your ultimate engagement), independently of your own preferences, even if it cost your live, is not dishonourable.

Jon cheated in the past, particularly when he considered to desert the NW. But he is becoming more and more rigorous (that is how I see his arc).

[sj4iy]

Robb being a friend has nothing to do with legitimacy. In fact I would consider that as soon a king has made one serious error, one could question the pertinence of his major rulings like cancelling sacred vows made before the gods. Beside AFAIK there is no precedent.

It has nothing to do with Robb being a "friend"- he was the rightful Lord of Winterfell and KitN. His word would hold more weight than Stannis'...especially if Jon knew that he didn't want Sansa to inherit.

Most of those who died had made errors (Ned, Robb), not because they were too honorable. Others had no choice (Qhorin).

OK, most of Jon's dealings with Stannis team were borderline. But he had not much choice either. Taking the best decision (regarding your ultimate engagement), independently of your own preferences, even if it cost your live, is not dishonourable.

Jon cheated in the past, particularly when he considered to desert the NW. But he is becoming more and more rigorous (that is how I see his arc).

I believe he will do whatever he had to do to save the realm- personal honor be damned.

[Shadow Cat 75]

I do agree that a main reason Melisandre was added was to have a POV while Jon is dead as well as allowing Martin to show other parts of the world, Melisandre has seen a lot of the world. As for Jon coming back very different I am not so sure.

Jon warged into Ghost so unlike all the other people who have been brought back to life, so his mind is likely to be intact then any of the others who are brought back. He may be more "wolf" like as in aggressive and may even have better senses but his personality and memories are likely to stay.

[Ser Daegon]

That makes sense.

My only other question: is everything that Barristan says in that exchange accurate?

The interesting thing about Barristan is that he's the only person we know who had actually been in person for all of what Aerys did, on top of during the reign of Aegon V, so we're inclined the take him for his word. To think about it like this... We accept Barristan as genuine truth simply because he's so honorable, and he's effectively the only person we know to be alive who was actually present for so many background events, and yet most people fail to understand that just because he was there, doesn't mean even he knows the actually truth behind everything.

[RoamingRonin]

I strongly agree with the point you made about the Others needing a head figure to represent them. They don't speak a language we can understand, for one thing. It might not be Jon (where's Benjen?) but I do think a familiar face will represent the White Walkers.

[Jm4n68]

Omg please this GRRM please do this!

[Sword of the Morgan]

Because:

1. Jon's not dead yet, and until Martin shows me an actual corpse, I don't think he will die from his injuries.

2. Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, so his Targaryen side is going to have to factor into this somehow or Martin wouldn't have included it.

3. Jon could be AAR/TPTWP.

Mel could be his stand-in POV while Jon is unconscious, but I don't think she's going to replace him as a POV. She's too unreliable and he's too important to do that.

Says the guy with Jon Snow as his photo.

[sj4iy]

Says the guy with Jon Snow as his photo.

Witty retort there. You absolutely disproved everything I said with it, because it's obvious I am only relying on wishful thinking and not textual evidence of any kind.

[RoamingRonin]

"I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books."

"For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books."

Quotes from GRRM that lead me to believe Jon is about to turn a turn for the Dark Side.

Also:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .

(The color blue and sweetness = negative connotations in the ASOIAF series).

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still… with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb's leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. "You stupid," she told him, "you scared the baby," but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

The memory made Arya smile, and after that the darkness held no more terrors for her. The stableboy was dead, she'd killed him, and if he jumped out at her she'd kill him again. She was going home. Everything would be better once she was home again, safe behind Winterfell's grey granite walls.

Her footsteps sent soft echoes hurrying ahead of her as Arya plunged deeper into the darkness.

"Snow," a raven muttered. "Snow," another echoed. All of them picked it up then. "Snow, snow, snow, snow, snow." Sam had taught them that word. There was no help here, he saw. Maester Aemon was as trapped as he was. He will die at sea, he thought, despairing. He is too old to survive such a voyage. Gilly's little son may die as well, he's not as large and strong as Dalla's boy. Does Jon mean to kill us all?

[Xyseth]

I don't think Jon is dead dead, he may be temporarily dead and Warging into Ghost like Orell Warged into his Bird...My problem with that is Orell never returning to his body, Jon may need help on that front, maybe from Blood Raven who I feel is in service of the Realm (I think his goal is Pact 2.0) Jon is the True and Legitimate King of Westeros, anyone who thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't protect their Child with a Royal name and claim is kidding themselves, The 3 Kings Guard at the Tower all but confirm his birthright as Prince and future King...

I think GRRM has to give fans 1 freaking quasi happy ending and JON saving the Realm from the Wall and ruling from Winterfell as he helps rebuild the Wall is a pretty good start...Dany or Tyrion riding dragons and burning the Others and Jon to Ashes is as lame as it gets IMO...A Dwarf and an Entitled Princess from an incestuous marriage who has only made it this far with the help of Illyrio, Drogo, Jorah, Ser Barristan, Slave Armies and Mystics like MMD and Quaite, not to mention her 3 "children" who act as WMD's in This World...Fire and Blood and all that business...

I think Stannis or Mance could fall into the necessary role of Night's King or the Others' sentry...

It feels like some fans have become so jaded by the amount of death to befall their favorite characters that they don't want a Jon, Dany or Tyrion to "win or survive" because Ned lost his Head or Robb lost his head...Ned lost his head because he made the same mistake twice in not seizing the power to save his family at least until he got them all up North, he really could have saved everyone a great deal of trouble by Making himself KiTN and giving all the other Kingdoms their independence...The Lannisters, Baratheons, Tyrells, Martells, Greyjoys, Tullys, Arryns and Targaryens would have to settle for ruling their own Kingdoms as they all did before Aegon's conquest...

Your last paragraph - I totally agree. I think he's at risk of alienating a lot of readers. My point, however, is that he has set up all the pieces for an evil UnJon making sense while being emotionally acceptable - not that we would necessarily like it. Moreover, I also agree that Jon saving the world might feel better than Dany saving the world. Dany, thus far, has been somewhat annoying. Jon, on the other hand, has not. And he doesn't have dragons. It would be less super-secret-magic-weapon-fantasy-extravaganza if Jon is our true hero, especially if he somehow did not have dragons to help him. Yet, like I said, all the pieces are there for an evil UnJon. My guess is that we'll have a much better guess with 2 or 3 Jon/Mel chapters. Maybe even 1, if you're realling looking for it, but I think, if it happens, GRRM will intend it to take 5 chapters for the average reader to know something is definitely up, beyond evil UnJon simply not having a POV. We'll slowly see that he is NOT himself.

The only issue with what you've said -- much like the issues surrounding Robb's will -- is that legitimacy does not come from a paper document. Legitimacy comes from power, first and foremost. Robert didn't need a genuine claim, as much as he scoured his family history for one. Only secondly does legitimacy come from a claim. So, in a rock paper scissors game between power, legitimacy and.. uhh.. scissors... power always wins because you can use power to scissor the paper claim to death. Thus, Robb's will is only relevant if someone very powerful is friends to Jon, or at least would prefer Jon over all the other alternatives. Given the Boltons, sure, that powerful entity could pick Jon. They don't need Robb's will to do it either, since a king could raise Jon and legitimize him as a bastard in one fell swoop. Since he's a Stark bastard, Jon wouldn't encounter significant pushback from the non-Frey/Bolton northern nobles, especially given Bolton. The only way Robb's will is relevant is for Jon to accept legitimization himself, being all "honorable" and all. Aint that right, Stannis?

tldr: Robb's will doesn't matter at all, but even if it doesn't exist Jon can still be legitimized so long as he can personally accept it.

Quotes from GRRM that lead me to believe Jon is about to turn a turn for the Dark Side.

Nice catch! I hadn't seen that.

[ummester]

Jon will be the Night's king.

And the Nights King will be like Surtr, with the flaming sword of Azor Ahai and all.

I agree with the basic idea presented by the OP and find that it agrees with this theory in may ways:

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

Evil will remain entirely subjective. If Nights King UnJon marches an army of the dead and Others against Boltons and Freys - who do we root for?

[Xyseth]

snip

Yes, that's a cool theory and I'm familiar. Its progenitor deserves great credit, even if it doesn't come to pass. It does have a problem, however: it makes too many people evil. It would be brilliant, if it could be executed. Yet, the execution is key, as Martin himself says. Even if we presume that full-blown Ragnarok was Martin's original plan (maybe?) he may be forced to change his mind, since he has to kill almost all of his babies and only leaves us with a few of our beloved characters uncorrupted. I think he could demonize Jon, especially an UnJon who isn't quite Jon but a possessed corpse. That wouldn't be oppressively difficult. A couple others demonized tops. Almost everybody? That's hard - not only to execute on the page for the reader but also for the emotions of the author. If full-blown Ragnarok complete with wholescale evil inversions comes about (a big if, given current information), I predict that he'll have to have Arya/Bran realize they've been manipulated and have made a mistake. Otherwise fans are upset and he is as well.

[RoamingRonin]

And the Nights King will be like Surtr, with the flaming sword of Azor Ahai and all.

I agree with the basic idea presented by the OP and find that it agrees with this theory in may ways:

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

Evil will remain entirely subjective. If Nights King UnJon marches an army of the dead and Others against Boltons and Freys - who do we root for?

Any sympathetic parties caught between? Same as the Battle of the Blackwater.

[Mithras]

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he's dead, do you?

[ummester]

Yes, that's a cool theory and I'm familiar. Its progenitor deserves great credit, even if it doesn't come to pass. It does have a problem, however: it makes too many people evil. It would be brilliant, if it could be executed. Yet, the execution is key, as Martin himself says. Even if we presume that full-blown Ragnarok was Martin's original plan (maybe?) he may be forced to change his mind, since he has to kill almost all of his babies and only leaves us with a few of our beloved characters uncorrupted. I think he could demonize Jon, especially an UnJon who isn't quite Jon but a possessed corpse. That wouldn't be oppressively difficult. A couple others demonized tops. Almost everybody? That's hard - not only to execute on the page for the reader but also for the emotions of the author. If full-blown Ragnarok complete with wholescale evil inversions comes about (a big if, given current information), I predict that he'll have to have Arya/Bran realize they've been manipulated and have made a mistake. Otherwise fans are upset and he is as well.

I don't see that theory, Ragnarok, or the theory in this OP, as making characters evil, as such. It's only evil if you think of it from a human perspective.

Forgetting ASoIaF and thinking of Earth. Currently, humans consume more fish than the ocean can reasonably provide for us and the predators that dwell in it. If a natural disaster takes out a big slice of humanity, it is not evil - tragic, for sure - but we shouldn't think of it as evil. Holistically, for the entire planet, such an event could even be seen as working towards a more sustainable balance. Alternately, when a bush fire rages through a forest, it is a destructive natural force, that leaves pain and destruction in it's wake - yet when the fire burns out and the new rains come, the forest grows anew, true green shoots, new trees to replace the old.

And this is the idea of Ragnarok, as I understand it. The monsters, giants, wolves etc are no more evil then the gods and people. It's about wiping the slate clean and restoring balance - it's about a new beginning, new dawn or, if you will, the dream of a new spring. It's about the survivors of the longest winter, or darkest night, learning how precious life is again.

[addicted to snow]

It really has nothing at all to do with what diehard Jon fans would do- Jon's story arc is simply not finished.

And I see no foreshadowing that predicts Jon turning 'evil' at all.

Jon's story arc is not finished... But the Jon that you know & love will never be seen again... It os known... Major Changes in Jon's immediate future...

[Amris]

The OP got started over the question of why GRRM added Melisandre's POV.

That led the OP to the theory that Jon will stop to be a POV and another one needed at the wall to replace his.

***

There are other explanations as to why the Melisandre POV might be needed:

- GRRM let us look into Melisandre's head in order to give our views about her a certain direction. To show us that her beliefs are honest to a certain extent. That she is not some evil witch hellbent on destruction but rather takes the AAR prophesy seriously.

This alone is enough to explain her POV. No need for any 'Un-Jon makes Jon POV go away' additional explanation.

- GRRM told us that he will take us further north in The Winds of Winter than ever before. Obviously he needs a POV to do that. Who could that POV realistically be?

There are just Jon, Bran and Melisandre there. Of these three Jon is the most likely to go on a 'special mission' IMO. Which would leave The Wall without POV.

So that's why the Melisandre POV might be needed at The Wall - because Jon travels north, not because he loses his POV.

- Jon and Dany's stories have so far been mirroring each other. Jon is still missing his 'rebirth' - scene though. This has already been mentioned upthread.

So a rebirth has to take place. But that doesn't necessitate an Un-Jon. Unless we believe that Dany has been reborn an 'Un-Dany' too when she walked out of that pyre ... hm. Fascinating thought.

But I don't think so:

It is true that Dany seems to sleep and eat less and less and that she was somehow changed after the pyre. But that doesn't mean she is undead. Not in the sense of Beric or Un-Cat at least. First: Dany still DOES sleep and eat. Second: Jon and Tyrion have been showing the same symptoms (problems sleeping) and that definitely without being undead.

So: A Jon rebirth has to happen yet but I don't see a necessity for it having to be an 'evil Un-Jon' rebirth.

All of this doesn't mean Jon won't be changed by the experience or that we will necessarily like all those changes. Dany was changed and I am pretty sure he will be too. There are tantalizing possibilities. NK, LH, KiTN, AAR, antagonist to Dany or ally of her. Antagonist of the Others or ally of them. Or maybe the key player managing to bring all the various interests (Others included) back into balance in the North. We will see.

[John Doe]

And the Nights King will be like Surtr, with the flaming sword of Azor Ahai and all.

Interesting point. Or maybe Martin turned it around and instead of an army of fire giants there will be an army of Others.

And the bifrost bridge= the Wall.