Who hired Jaqen Hagar and why?

[shadow282]

It wasn't: 1) To kill Ned- couldn't exactly do that in chains, would be much easier to just join up as a random guy

2) Go to the Wall- same as ^ plus he would have gone there after he escaped

He told Arya when they parted that he was going back across the sea, which presumably means Braavos. So whatever he was doing he either did it before being captured or someone did it for him while he was imprisoned. Whatever he's doing in Oldtown is probably a different mission.

[shadow282]

I doubt the faceless men like fire/blood/dragon type magic, with Valyrian slave origins.

Their god is not quite magic, it's just death personified. There is no indication that the usage of their 'masks' involves any type of blood magic, they don't have to sacrifice someone to change form. It's more like discipline and alchemy.

Depends how you look at the masks. It could be blood magic because the people for the masks "sacrifice" themselves and that magic gets imbued into the face.

[markg171]

I doubt the faceless men like fire/blood/dragon type magic, with Valyrian slave origins.

Their god is not quite magic, it's just death personified. There is no indication that the usage of their 'masks' involves any type of blood magic, they don't have to sacrifice someone to change form. It's more like discipline and alchemy.

But the whole point of the FM is that he can be anybody. The first FM was "no one" and we're left unsure whether he was a slave or highborn. He was unidentifiable. The only connection to the Valyrian slaves is that they were all crying out for death. The first FM granted that wish. He didn't grant it because he felt bad or anything, just that he believed that every god was the same god and all everybody wanted was death.

So we have nothing to actually believe that the FM dislike fire/blood magic as seems to be perpetuated on here. In fact, like I said, if this was the case, why would Jaqen care about giving the Red God the deaths he believed Arya stole?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But the whole point of the FM is that he can be anybody. The first FM was "no one" and we're left unsure whether he was a slave or highborn. He was unidentifiable. The only connection to the Valyrian slaves is that they were all crying out for death. The first FM granted that wish. He didn't grant it because he felt bad or anything, just that he believed that every god was the same god and all everybody wanted was death.

So we have nothing to actually believe that the FM dislike fire/blood magic as seems to be perpetuated on here. In fact, like I said, if this was the case, why would Jaqen care about giving the Red God the deaths he believed Arya stole?

Maybe Jaqen was in Jaqen persona, and Jaqen worships the Red God.

[markg171]

Maybe Jaqen was in Jaqen persona, and Jaqen worships the Red God.

I suppose this is possible. I just don't think we should adopt this idea that FM are against old Valyrian magic simply because they found their begins among the slaves of Valyria, especially when one of the most prominent FM we meet believes he owes the Red God 3 deaths when Arya saves his life, and he's willing to kill anybody, including himself, to fulfill this debt.

[myufa]

I don't think the FM are acting on their own. Don't they have a rule against that? Maybe they could be on a mission that involves more casualties than ordered but they would chose the ultimate target.

[prince_aegon]

I think he's on a mission for the FM to find ancient books on dragons and/or magic to ensure there isn't another resurgence of dragons and fire magic. The FM could have an obsidian candle that allowed them to discover the coming return of the dragons/fire magic.

He could have gone to the Red Keep first and then went to the Citadel when he couldn't find whatever he's looking for. We learn from the Kindly Man that the FM don't chose who they kill, and since it's not likely someone hired the FM to kill Pate, Jaqen had to have been on a mission so important that he could break that rule.

I know that doesn't explain how he ended up in the Black Cells.

this chapter always bugged me. why did pate die?

[Red Typer of Dorne]

I'm torn between 2 options.

1. Jaqan's target was Pycelle-Pycelle would be familiar with the Citidal and possibly have one of the 'magic' keys himself if thats what the FM were after. If it were books he could have requested any books he wanted as archmaester. however this doesn't explain why he would leave without completing his task (unless he was disguised as Syrio and was arrested before he could complete it, therefore forcing him to go the pate route).

2. Jaqans mission was to get Arya to the house of black and white and the whole thing is an elaborate quest to get a new assassin (no proof just like the idea)

[SevasTra82]

Hard for me to imagine that Jaqen got captured any other way but on purpose. The books also state that his fellow captors (Biter and Rorge) where fearful of Jaqen, hinting that they were aware of his identity as a FM.

I do think his purpose was to go to the Wall (for whatever reason) and now to the Citadel (again, for whatever reason). For whatever reason, his purpose at the Wall was thwarted so he changed direction.

Nowhere does it say a FM just kills people. They could be spies (For all we know, Varys could be linked with them). Jaqen also could be just going Rogue for his own person desires (there is a reason he is in Westeros and now Essos after all).

Jaqen is up to something...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Some thoughts:

1. No way he got caught deliberately. Faceless Men aren't infallible, and it's entirely possible that he could have been outnumbered by guards and, deprived of an exit, chose to submit, knowing he could ask for the Wall and simply escape at a later date. Evidently time wasn't a factor for him, as he dawdled in the Riverlands after joining up with the Lannisters. Whether this was just to pay Arya's blood debt, or to regroup whilst still maintaining his cover, I don't know.

2. I don't think the Faceless Men are all that concerned about their minions killing people they weren't ordered to. Arya slices up that fool in Braavos and gets rewarded by nek levelling on her training. As for Jaqen, he's a long way from Braavos, and probably exercises a great deal of latitude in the way he carries out his missions, whether management allows it or not.

3. We still don't know for sure who he's working for, or whether his mission/s are sanctioned by the House of Black 'n' White. His references to the Red God could be down to the fiery death that he avoided, or they could be part of his cover as Jaqen. But it's also possible that he's a firm believer in old mate Rh'ollor (or however you spell it), and isn't working for the Faceless Men at all. It's presumably not impossible to take their training and go off on your own. I'm sure we all fully expect Arya to do just that.

4.

... And it isn't it amazing that Jaqen H'ghar recognized Arya for who she was, calling her "Lady Stark" at Harrenthal? How would he know that? Since its seems to be the standard procedure for the FM to study their targets before they strike them down, anyone studying Ned would be familiar with Arya. That, more than anything (for me at least), indicates that Ned Stark was his target.

I don't think Ned Stark was ever a target, but that is a good observation regarding Arya. My best guess is that he'd been poking around the Red Keep for a while, and had thus seen the Starks already.

5. Whatever it was he was in Westeros to do, it must have involved being in King's Landing, because that's where he was captured. Every castle has its own dungeon, so there's no chance of a prisoner transfer (except to the Wall, or in rare circumstances that don't seem to apply here). So what was he in King's Landing for, and did he do it yet? My guess is he killed someone, and got caught, and that's why he's locked up.

6. Rorge and Biter needn't know he's a Faceless Man to be scared of him, just that he's a badass. He probably shanked some fool in prison, like Omar from The Wire.

7. I'm skeptical he ever intended to go to the Wall, except as a means of escaping his jailing in King's Landing. Like I said, Faceless Men are good, but they're not that good, and if he's manacled in a paddy wagon then he's got no way of breaking out. Easier to just head north, slip away, change his face and sail back to Braavos. Or to Pyke...

8. I'm a believer that Balon was killed by a Faceless Man, but do we know it was Jaqen? Does the timeline work out, and are there any other clues?

9.

this chapter always bugged me. why did pate die?

Do you mean, why did Jaqen kill him? Or how did he die?

We don't know why Jaqen killed him yet, except that he needed to steal his identity, and it probably has something to do with that key, at the very least. The mechanics of the killing (which eluded me until someone on here explained it to me) is that the gold coin he gave Pate was poisoned, and when Pate bit it - a common thing in Westeros, where people need to be sure that the coin they're holding is real gold - and apparently biting is the best way to tell - anyway, when he bit it, he ingested some poison and died.

10. This man is a mystery, and he must be solved

[aryagonnakill#2]

Presumably Jaqen would have had to cut Pates face off before taking it, so killing him is obviously the easiest way to accomplish that. There is also the expression dead men tell no tales, meaning Pates conscience would never get the better of him.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Ooh, I just thought of something...

Whatever it was he was in Westeros to do, it must have involved being in King's Landing, because that's where he was captured. Every castle has its own dungeon, so there's no chance of a prisoner transfer (except to the Wall, or in rare circumstances that don't seem to apply here). So what was he in King's Landing for, and did he do it yet? My guess is he killed someone, and got caught, and that's why he's locked up.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121430-who-killed-ser-hugh/

I've been wondering who killed Ser Hugh, and perhaps this explains what he was doing in King's Landing... Littlefinger hired a Faceless Man to kill Ser Hugh, to make Ned suspect the Lannisters!

It explains what Jaqen was doing in King's Landing, how Littlefinger knew how much the Faceless Men charged, and it fits with Hugh's death looking like an accident.

Still pretty thin though. And it doesn't explain why Jaqen got arrested.

[Hangover of the Morning]

So far as I know, that's the ONLY reason they are sent there or accepted by the "recruiters" of the NW.

The NW, so far as I know, didn't run a prison.

~~~~~~~~~~~~EDIT

It had already been decided prior to Ned's confession that the three prisoners (of which JH was one) would be sent to the Wall.

You can just go to the Castle Black and join, like Jon did or he can go to Moles Town and steal something and get caught.

FM are people like everybody else. They're not invincible (he'd be dead if Arya wouldn't save him from the fire) so Jaqen could have just been caught.

[aryagonnakill#2]

There seem to be a lot of people who think he was intentionally going to CB and only later changed his mind and headed to Oldtown. I just don't understand why people think he would just "change his mind" and no 1 seems to have provided even a crackpot theory as to why. Aemon was still there when he changed routes, not only that but there is no reason to think he would even have heard about things such as Jeor making the great ranging, since it did not take place until after the war started and that likely stopped all trade between the wall and areas south of the neck.

[Hos the Hostage]

I am more interested in who caught him. For all their reputation, FM may not be infallible. The sorrowful men failed to kill Dany, after all.

Since no one in KL seems smart enough law keepers maybe he let himself be caught. But if he just wanted to go to the Wall, he didn't have to get to black cells. If he had to kill Balon, he need not have stpped at KL.

[myufa]

I never considered that, it's very interesting that maybe he was hired by Euron to kill Balon, nice job Hos. He may now be at the citadel to learn stuff as well as spy for Euron.

[bemused]

There's no reason a FM couldn't have been captured, but after much consideration, I somehow don't think he was. Nor do I think that he was going to CB. ( He could have gone there on his own and volunteered.) Nor do I think that Euron hired a faceless man. (Euron's "agent" may well have been the storm itself , conjured or directed by his warlocks.)

There's a side issue that may turn out to be related : Tobho Mott's establishment in KL has tantalizing echoes of the house of B&W .. The doors are black and white .. Tobho wears a sapphire the size of a pigeons egg ( sapphires = deceptions) .. He has a respectful, efficient little serving maid (reminiscent of the waif) ... His is a large establishment with many rooms in the floors above, but it's not mentioned that he's married , or has any family. After many years in KL , he's well connected, and known to be discreet. ...When you consider that the FM training suits them well for espionage activities , Tobho could be head of operations in KL for the HoB&W alone , or for the "powers-that-be" in Braavos (IB, FM, Sealord).

As such, he would certainly want eyes and ears close to the new Hand, if possible. (The new Hand, however, is diffucult to infiltrate, since he brought his own men and household staff with him.) .... And as such, Tobho may (or may not) have been aware of Arya's movements when Ned was arrested. He certainly knew Ned was supposed to be taking the black and that Gendry was being sent away with Yoren.

A top notch armourer and arms maker might be one good place to start when looking for an unusual style of fencing master.

Syrio Forel may or may not have been a faceless man positioning himself to know what was going on with Ned ... and Syrio may or may not be dead. That almost doesn't matter in the big picture, so far ... because, either way, Tobho could have dispatched a FM (disguised as any one of Yoren's recruits) ,to keep tabs on Ned and Gendry, or Ned, Gendry and Arya.

Jaqen does not share Rorge and Biter's back story. Though he separates himself from them when speaking to Arya, they show no sign of fearing him while they're caged with him.. only when we meet them all again, in Harrenhall.

If we read the scene at the holdfast by The God's Eye carefully, Jaqen shows signs of being overcome by smoke inhalation when Arya last sees him .. and , in what can only be seconds later (probably no more than half a minute, and perhaps less), while in the tunnel, Arya hears the sound and feels the blast of hot air as the barn collaspses... The prisoner Jaqen may well have died. His identity could be taken over by a FM. ( As in the case of Pate, either by taking his "mask", or by a glamour, which we know FM learn how to cast.)

Besides Arya's little group, 3 men that Yoren had positioned in the watchtower survive. One (Kurz),wounded, teaches Arya's group a very few survival skills before dying. The other two (Cutjack and Tarber) leave. We never hear of these men again and don't know if they stuck together or not .. but there's no sign that they were connected to each other before being given to Yoren.

So, what is their purpose in the story ? Their help is not that great, and of very short duration. Perhaps they're just colour, but perhaps not. Perhaps they're there to show that there were (or could be)other survivors. The FM that we later know as Jaqen/ the Alchemist , could have been anyone....

When Arya's group go back to the holdfast to look for Yoren, Gendry points out that dogs (or wolves) had been at the corpses. They found and buried Yoren, the other corpses (recruits and Lannister men) were left .They don't identify any other corpses.. Who would notice, if one corpse was missing a face .. or missing it's clothes, given the gnawing of dogs/wolves and the common practice of stripping the dead of useful Items ?

There are many anomalies about Jaqen that need explaining ; his beautiful, unsinged hair, the fact that he suffered no burns.. his peculiar claim about repaying the 3 lives ,when the FM believe it doesn't matter when death comes .. not to mention that if he is not prisoner Jaqen, only 2 lives were saved by Arya.. and much more.

Arya( only a novice) is taught that extra lives hould not be taken on an assasination mission , but I suspect that espionage missions for the state, or one or more of the Braavosi PTB, must function under different (but still judicious) rules. This would help to explain the leeway Jaqen/the Alchemist appears to have both in Harrenhall and in Oldtown.

And I think we see the beginning of this sort of training for Arya in the TWoW "Mercy" chapter..

She appears to have been given the task of causing trouble for the Sealord and Harys Swyft when Swyft attends the theatre where she is apprenticing ... but she must find a way to do it. That she manages to do it by making it appear that one of Swyft's guards has murdered a young mummer girl and then run off, will, I think, be perfectly fine with the HoB&W... That she happens to be able to cross a name off her list in the process , will be another of her little secrets. (I'll just leave aside for now that the introduction of the name Phario Forel might bode some revelations to come about Syrio)

So I think the Alchemist is working in the interest of Braavos, for (if not the dying Sealord) powerful political factions in Braavos. He became Jaqen at the holdfast , and may or may not have been Syrio previously. He has an interest in Arya , and perhaps some fondness for her (kissing her hair). Whatever Braavos knows about the great forces at play, or their political intentions - it's obvious that Starks are on their radar and are taken seriously ( Tycho and Jon).

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Euron to kill Balon .

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

I think Jaqen is after a book. Where do you go if you are a foreigner and want to find some ancient book in Westeros? Well, you probably start in King's Landing. There are other places with rich libraries, but they are a bit harder to access -- Winterfell, Castle Black, Oldtown.

So Jaqen comes to King's Landing. He doesn't find the book he's looking for. Next, he could go to the Citadel, or he could go to the North with its two ancient libraries. Yoren shows up in King's Landing, and that's like waiving a free bus ticket in Jaqen's face.

Jaqen gets himself imprisoned and taken North. They get attacked, Arya saves him and he lingers to pay his debt. By the time the debt is paid, Moat Cailin has been taken by the ironborn and the way is shut. More, Winterfell has fallen too and accessing its library might be impossible, or it might even be gone. He could figure out another, longer, more difficult way to get to Castle Black, but it's simpler to just go to Oldtown. And that's where he ends up.

What kind of book is he looking for? Clearly, a book about something that Westerosi would know better than anyone else. I can think of two things: white walkers and children of the forest. Some people think it might be a book about dragons, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you go to the North to learn about dragons? Why go to Westeros at all, free cities and other places in Essos have thousands of years of experience on the subject matter.

Why is he looking for that book? It's probably connected to another, bigger assignment. If my guess is correct and the book is about the children or white walkers, then the target is probably related to one of these things.

And we happen to know one person who's connected to the children of the forest, who is very well protected and can see things from thousands of miles away, and who won't die even if his body is pierced by weirwood roots. Killing Brynden Rivers would be a tall task even for the Faceless Men and would require long research and preparation.

Or maybe their target is some leader of the Others that we haven't seen yet. Whoever the target, I think it will be Arya's big assignment. Most likely a group job, and she will be part of it.

[myufa]

I think Jaqen is after a book. Where do you go if you are a foreigner and want to find some ancient book in Westeros? Well, you probably start in King's Landing. There are other places with rich libraries, but they are a bit harder to access -- Winterfell, Castle Black, Oldtown.

So Jaqen comes to King's Landing. He doesn't find the book he's looking for. Next, he could go to the Citadel, or he could go to the North with its two ancient libraries. Yoren shows up in King's Landing, and that's like waiving a free bus ticket in Jaqen's face.

Jaqen gets himself imprisoned and taken North. They get attacked, Arya saves him and he lingers to pay his debt. By the time the debt is paid, Moat Cailin has been taken by the ironborn and the way is shut. More, Winterfell has fallen too and accessing its library might be impossible, or it might even be gone. He could figure out another, longer, more difficult way to get to Castle Black, but it's simpler to just go to Oldtown. And that's where he ends up.

What kind of book is he looking for? Clearly, a book about something that Westerosi would know better than anyone else. I can think of two things: white walkers and children of the forest. Some people think it might be a book about dragons, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you go to the North to learn about dragons? Why go to Westeros at all, free cities and other places in Essos have thousands of years of experience on the subject matter.

Why is he looking for that book? It's probably connected to another, bigger assignment. If my guess is correct and the book is about the children or white walkers, then the target is probably related to one of these things.

And we happen to know one person who's connected to the children of the forest, who is very well protected and can see things from thousands of miles away, and who won't die even if his body is pierced by weirwood roots. Killing Brynden Rivers would be a tall task even for the Faceless Men and would require long research and preparation.

Or maybe their target is some leader of the Others that we haven't seen yet. Whoever the target, I think it will be Arya's big assignment. Most likely a group job, and she will be part of it.

I don't think the faceless men know shit about BR nor anyone with the money to hire a FM. Also they wouldn't fight the Others since they worship death.