Brienne of Tarth has Targaryen blood.

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

sure, the whole thing is nothing but speculation. The only textual evidence is the Tarth thing. But it would qualify as an interesting twist we most likely all hope the future Dunk & Egg stories will give us. Under normal circumstances it would be extremely unlikely that Dunk ends up marrying a Targaryen princess. But as he is the hero of his own series of stories things change somewhat.

Not to mention that it is not unlikely that Maekar had actually little say in the marriage policy of his own children. The Daeron-Kiera match most likely was arranged by the Iron Throne (Aerys I/Bloodraven), following the death of Prince Valarr (I really hope we'll see that wedding - nothing suggests that Daeron married while Egg was on the road), not by Maekar himself.

Aerion may actually have refused the brides his father suggested, as he apparently he remained unwed for quite some time, even after his father became king, considering that Maegor was only born in 232 AC (and it also seems to be the case as if Daenora was not yet alive in TMK). I'm inclined to believe that Aerion wanted an incest match, but Maekar refused to marry him to Daella or Rhae, and thus he ended up waiting for Daenora to be old enough to marry her. In that regard, it could also be that Dunk and Daella married in secret to prevent Aerion from marrying her.

If Dunk and Daella had married prior to the Third Blackfyre Rebellion (which is also a possibility), Prince Aelor would have still been Aerys' heir, and Maekar's whole line would have been at the very end of the line of succession.

The Tarth match idea makes also some sense, but I guess Aerys/Bloodraven were hoping that the Daeron-Kiera match would suffice to convince the Archon to not provide the Blackfyres with too much assistance.

[RumHam]

Dunk's marriage would have been chronicled in the White Book

Would it even? Does the book record your life story before you join the Kingsguard?

[Lord Varys]

If I remember correctly, then both Jaime's and Barristan's entries chronicled stuff prior to them joining the KG, and I'm inclined to believe that a (former) hedge knight marrying the niece of the king would have been an important enough event (although the book may restrict itself to chronicle mostly feats of arms), especially since Kingsguard knights are usually not widowed...

But the fact that Jaime's account chronicled the fact that he escorted Cersei to KL for her wedding suggests that Dunk's marriage would have been included, too.

[RumHam]

Yeah that makes sense. So if he had been accepted Fireballs entry might have begun with "Forced his wife to join the Silent Sisters." Not a great start for him.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I'd guess either a child of Rhae or a child of Daella married into House Tarth..

:agree:

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Not to mention that it is not unlikely that Maekar had actually little say in the marriage policy of his own children. The Daeron-Kiera match most likely was arranged by the Iron Throne (Aerys I/Bloodraven), following the death of Prince Valarr (I really hope we'll see that wedding - nothing suggests that Daeron married while Egg was on the road), not by Maekar himself.

I definitely agree that the Daeron-Kiera match was not Maekar's doing. The IT no doubt received something in return for the original match with Valarr, and the bride's family would feel a bit cheated by the early death. A replacement for Valarr would be necessary to maintain the link. Daeron and Aerion might also have been very hard to find wives for once they both disgraced themselves at the Trial of Seven.

But to me, that makes it even more probable that Maekar would be very careful with Daella and Rhea. Lordly fathers normally control their children's marriage arrangements. A royal prince like Maekar would have to take the good of the overall family into account, but he still would have the right to arrange the marriages of his daughters. Having been deprived of the chance to control his son's marriages, he would be all the more likely to control his daughters'. Maekar was not a sentimental man. And after all, we can't have too many marriages for love amongst the royals - it would become the norm, rather than the exception.

If any of Maekar's daughters did marry for love, it was probably Rhae, with her love potions.

Daeron II's marriage policy seems to be oriented around the Dornish situation. His much-younger sister marries the Martell price, bringing Dorne under the IT's rule. Baelor Breakspear marries a marcher lord's daughter (Dondarrion) to reassure them. Maekar marries into another supportive Dornish house (Dayne), while the Yronwood opposition is isolated. Rhaegel reconnects with the Arryns, while Aerys marries a Stormlander (Penrose). The Tarth marriage, if it happened just before BFR3 as I suggested, would be a necessary expedient to oppose the coming invasion. We should look for a Reach marriage for Rhae - maybe Raymun Fossoway? We can probably exclude Baratheon, Tully, Tyrell, and Redwine, since Egg and Betha wouldn't have doubled up so soon. It's actually quite interesting that the Lannisters and their bannermen seem to be constantly excluded from Targ marriages (other than Ozzy Plumm).

Ar for Dunk, I see him as a lifelong bachelor, who leaves a few bastards throughout the realm. If there are any Osgreys left in Westeros, they are probably Dunk's descendents, not Eustace's. That could be one way Dunk's blood got into the Tarth line - a Tarth-Osgrey marriage. Other irregular possibilities would make great stories in the series, as well. I've always figured the reason Dunk's shield was left in Tarth was because that was where he took the white.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I definitely agree that the Daeron-Kiera match was not Maekar's doing. The IT no doubt received something in return for the original match with Valarr, and the bride's family would feel a bit cheated by the early death. A replacement for Valarr would be necessary to maintain the link. Daeron and Aerion might also have been very hard to find wives for once they both disgraced themselves at the Trial of Seven.

She was the daughter of royalty of Tyrosh, right? So was the wife of Daemon Blackfyre.. and Tyrosh was where his children had taken refuge. By marrying the eventual heir to the throne to Kiera, it was prevented that Tyrosh would join a war against Westeros..

The IT would not want to lose that...

[Lord Varys]

Nothing suggests that Dunk actually wants to remain a bachelor, or has had an affair with Lady Rohanne (and he most likely won't have the time to reconnect with her before she marries Lord Gerold, and there is little chance that they had an affair thereafter - Rohanne's disappearance aside - as Lord Gerold would most likely have not supported Egg in the Great Council if he had any reason to believe that his beloved wife had cheated on him with Dunk).

I'm pretty sure he did marry, and it is intriguing that he is only mentioned as a KG in 236 AC during the Fourth Rebellion.

As to Daeron the Good's marriage policy:

Considering that Ran has confirmed that Aelinor Penrose is Aerys' cousin (not through Elaena-Ronnel, but through another line) I've tossed around the idea that Daeron did actually not make a bunch of political matches - or rather not only a bunch of political matches - but continued the Targaryen incest thing by marrying his sons to the closest female relatives that fit age-wise.

Aelinor Penrose and Jena Dondarrion could be (great-)granddaughters of Rhaena and Garmund, with the Hightower-Penrose/Dondarrion match occurring during the reign of Aegon III or to strengthen ties between Oldtown and Dornish Marches in the wake/around the time of the Conquest of Dorne.

And Dyanna could possible be the descendant of a union between one of Alyn's daughters by Baela and a Dayne, brokered by Alyn during the time he spent quite some time at Sunspear, enjoying the favor of the Princess of Dorne (or it could have been the result of the whole Dornish hostage, and its resolution by Baelor).

Rhaegel-Alys was either brokered after the Redgrass Field, being the result of the stalwart support of the Vale, or the match was the reason why the Arryns supported Daeron II as loyally as they did.

[Mithras]

I think a daughter of Elaena might also be the source of House Tarth's Targaryen descent. And Dunk's possible descendants through a proper marriage for his station might be the source of Brienne's size and Dunk's shield she saw. Dunk's line and Targaryen blood do not have to come to the Tarths from the same route.

[Lord Varys]

Elaena (or Daenerys-Maron) seem to be too far in the past. The quote goes something like 'more recently', suggesting that the match occurred in between, say, 315-340 AC, rather than in the earlier decades. Not to mention that a marriage between the Penroses and the Tarths would have been no big deal.

I'm pretty sure the Targaryen blood of the Tarths come from a descendant of Maekar and Dyanna.

[Ravenkingsamurai]

Elaena (or Daenerys-Maron) seem to be too far in the past. The quote goes something like 'more recently', suggesting that the match occurred in between, say, 315-340 AC, rather than in the earlier decades. Not to mention that a marriage between the Penroses and the Tarths would have been no big deal.

I'm pretty sure the Targaryen blood of the Tarths come from a descendant of Maekar and Dyanna.

I agree. The way the quote is worded suggests to me that a Targaryen married directly into the Tarths, rather than someone of Targ descent marrying into the Tarths.

[Lord Varys]

That does not have to be the case, the text only mentions 'ties', that leaves room for various interpretations. It could be a Targaryen marrying into House Targaryen, or a Targaryen granddaughter through the female line.

My point is that it would be somewhat weird if Yandel did phrase a marriage between the Targaryen-Penroses this way, as there should been lots of marriages between the Tarths and Penroses anyway.

The context suggests that Yandel is celebrating Robert's people in this chapter - it is named 'The Men of the Stormlands' after all - and especially the Tarths seem to be presented as former royalty with close ties to former (and present-day) royalty (i.e. the Durrandons, Baratheons, and Targaryens). Which could essentially be a way for Yandel to show: Look, King Robert/Joffrey/Tommen, those Tarths are your closest kin with a claim to the Iron Throne' (not counting Stannis/Shireen and the Daenerys/Aegon, of course).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Nothing suggests that Dunk actually wants to remain a bachelor, or has had an affair with Lady Rohanne

Some have debated the significance of Dunk "taking her braid". Think Dothraki - a conquest. Some rolling in the hay might have been involved.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

...The way the quote is worded suggests to me that a Targaryen married directly into the Tarths, rather than someone of Targ descent marrying into the Tarths.

:agree:

[Lord Varys]

I'd agree on the Rohanne thing - if TMK did not give the overall impression that Dunk is still a virgin. I really think we will be there when he gets his first shot...

[Ibbison from Ibben]

She was the daughter of royalty of Tyrosh, right? So was the wife of Daemon Blackfyre.. and Tyrosh was where his children had taken refuge. By marrying the eventual heir to the throne to Kiera, it was prevented that Tyrosh would join a war against Westeros..

The IT would not want to lose that...

The Archon of Tyrosh is chosen from a council of merchant prince types. We're not sure about Kiera's family. And Archons can be changed. Obviously Kiera's family was powerful, but only as one amongst equals. That was undoubtedly the reason for her remarriage to Daeron, but in the end it didn't prevent BFR3.

[Lord Varys]

I think we can be reasonably sure that Rohanne of Tyrosh was a sister/daughter/niece of the Archon of Tyrosh who ruled around 184 AC. My guess is that by 209 AC a different Archon ruled, and Kiera of Tyrosh was closely related to him. It would be very odd if Rohanne and Kiera belonged to the same house, and that this house ended up marrying both into House Blackfyre and Targaryen.

Nothing suggests that the Valarr-Kiera and Daeron-Kiera matches were supposed to prevent Blackfyre rebellions altogether (the Valarr-Kiera match clearly did nothing to prevent the Second Rebellion), but were rather a (successful) means to prevent the Tyroshi from joining their Blackfyre kin/guests in their war against the Iron Throne.

My guess is that the Blackfyres only were allowed to stay in Tyrosh while Rohanne was alive - and later perhaps if some Blackfyres married into Tyroshi nobility (Aenys writes from Tyrosh in 233 AC, if I remember correctly).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I think we can be reasonably sure that Rohanne of Tyrosh was a sister/daughter/niece of the Archon of Tyrosh who ruled around 184 AC. My guess is that by 209 AC a different Archon ruled, and Kiera of Tyrosh was closely related to him. It would be very odd if the Rohanne and Kiera belonged to the same house, and that this house ended up marrying both into House Blackfyre and Targaryen.

Nothing suggests that the Valarr-Kiera and Daeron-Kiera matches were supposed to prevent Blackfyre rebellions altogether (the Valarr-Kiera match clearly did nothing to prevent the Second Rebellion), but were rather a (successful) means to prevent the Tyroshi from joining their Blackfyre kin/guests in their war against the Iron Throne.

My guess is that the Blackfyres only were allowed to stay in Tyrosh while Rohanne was alive - and later perhaps if some Blackfyres married into Tyroshi nobility (Aenys writes from Tyrosh in 233 AC, if I remember correctly).

Sounds reasonable. Both the Blackfyres and the Targs ended up dabbling in Tyroshi politics, while Tyrosh on a whole stayed neutral. If Aenys was still there in 233, then perhaps the Blackfyre presence in Tyrosh ended after the miserable failure of BFR4 in 236. Maelys and his allies took Tyrosh as part of the Wot9PK, so the Blackfyres obviously had left by then.

It would be interesting to know if Bittersteel/Daeron II/Haegon ever contacted Aerion while the latter was in exile in Lys. A rude refusal by Aerion could have led to some personal enmity that contributed to whatever Aerion did in 219.

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

continuing something else:

If I remember correctly, you stated that you do not consider Maekar a 'sentimental character'. Before TWoIaF I'd have seconded that, but his section clearly states that he had a great sentimental side in mourning for Baelor again each year, even after he had taken the Iron Throne.

Maekar is clearly a hard character, but he may have softer sides, too, and what we have seen of him in THK was nothing but his official face while he was angry. THK and TSS (Egg telling about him) indicate that he has an intellectual side as well, searching for meaning in life (the conversations with the High Septon, which, I assume, began, when Dyanna died prematurely).

If Maekar was mostly a harsh and unforgiving man he would never have allowed Egg to squire for Dunk. There is a pretty good chance that we'll get some sort of Stannis-Davos relationship in Maekar and Dunk, during Aerys' reign as well as during Maekar's own reign.

If that's the case, then I really can see Maekar marrying Daella to Dunk. I'd be very surprised if this guy would not surprise us.

Blackfyres/Tyrosh:

Bittersteel crowned Daemon III in Tyrosh a year after the Third Rebellion, if I remember correctly, but nothing suggests that the Blackfyres staged the Fourth Rebellion from Tyrosh as well. Considering that Aenys' attempt to gain the Crown at the Great Council was clearly away to circumvent/outmaneuver Daemon/Bittersteel, it may be that Bittersteel/Daemon no longer resided in Tyrosh in 233 AC.

It may also be that Aenys himself did not actively participate in the Third Rebellion, as his letter reads as if he himself had not actively supported 'his forebears' in their attempts to win the Crown (but that could only be a twisting of words).

Aerion/Haegon:

Depending on when exactly Aerion fought with the Second Sons, he and Bittersteel may have actually been brothers-in-arms (although I assume that would have ended in Aerion's premature and gruesome death) as both fought with them at one point (and we know that the Golden Company was only founded in 212 AC).

But I'd rather assume that Aerion and the Second Sons fought against the Golden Company and Bittersteel throughout Aerion's time in Essos.

[Aemond's Eye]

Ibbison,

continuing something else:

If I remember correctly, you stated that you do not consider Maekar a 'sentimental character'. Before TWoIaF I'd have seconded that, but his section clearly states that he had a great sentimental side in mourning for Baelor again each year, even after he had taken the Iron Throne.

Maekar is clearly a hard character, but he may have softer sides, too, and what we have seen of him in THK was nothing but his official face while he was angry. THK and TSS (Egg telling about him) indicate that he has an intellectual side as well, searching for meaning in life (the conversations with the High Septon, which, I assume, began, when Dyanna died prematurely).

If Maekar was mostly a harsh and unforgiving man he would never have allowed Egg to squire for Dunk. There is a pretty good chance that we'll get some sort of Stannis-Davos relationship in Maekar and Dunk, during Aerys' reign as well as during Maekar's own reign.

If that's the case, then I really can see Maekar marrying Daella to Dunk. I'd be very surprised if this guy would not surprise us.

Blackfyres/Tyrosh:

Bittersteel crowned Daemon III in Tyrosh a year after the Third Rebellion, if I remember correctly, but nothing suggests that the Blackfyres staged the Fourth Rebellion from Tyrosh as well. Considering that Aenys' attempt to gain the Crown at the Great Council was clearly away to circumvent/outmaneuver Daemon/Bittersteel, it may be that Bittersteel/Daemon no longer resided in Tyrosh in 233 AC.

It may also be that Aenys himself did not actively participate in the Third Rebellion, as his letter reads as if he himself had not actively supported 'his forebears' in their attempts to win the Crown (but that could only be a twisting of words).

Aerion/Haegon:

Depending on when exactly Aerion fought with the Second Sons, he and Bittersteel may have actually been brothers-in-arms (although I assume that would have ended in Aerion's premature and gruesome death) as both fought with them at one point (and we know that the Golden Company was only founded in 212 AC).

But I'd rather assume that Aerion and the Second Sons fought against the Golden Company and Bittersteel throughout Aerion's time in Essos.

This is one I'm having a hard time picturing. I can't see any Lord and Prince marrying his Princess daughter to a landless hedge knight. Even if he wanted to, he may be overruled by the crown.

Sure, it's possible that Dunk was granted lands by the Targaryens. I still think he'd be considered too low on the nobility to marry one of the few available female Targaryens that could instead be used to forge alliances. But even if he was granted lands and married, we'd need to then assume that he abdicated lands and titles to serve in the Kingsguard.

It's possible but I find it implausible based on what we know. (Though I do see Maekar as being a fair and honourable character. I actually don't think his rivalry with Bloodraven was as hostile as a lot of people assume. They were close enough in age to essentially be raised together - I see it as essentially a sort of sibling rivalry. Albeit not the same sort as Daeron/Daemon and Brynden/Aegor!)