Greek elections 2015’s version.

[Alarich]

Spending money they don't have. The analogy is obvious.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Spending money they don't have. The analogy is obvious.

You mean the goverment spending money they didn't had right?

[kiko]

You mean the goverment spending money they didn't had right?

What did they spend it on?

[Lykos]

Spending money they don't have. The analogy is obvious.

Other drinking, gambling and cheating countries therefore are - Japan, Ireland, USA, Singapore, Belgium, Italy, Canada, France, UK, Switzerland, Austria.

The difference is the hope the lenders have (the confidence) in the power of the Greek economy is much lower.

This graph shows that the Greek people hasn't been "lazy" but generating one of the biggest growth rates in the Euro-Zone until the debt crisis. It shows the potential of the Greek economy if investors could trust in the Greek government to implement a sound fiscal policy. The past years have shown that austerity alone doesn't do the trick.

What did they spend it on?

This may answer your question.

Greek governments have, among other things, customarily run large deficits to finance enormous military expenditure, public sector jobs, pensions and other social benefits. Greece is, as a percentage of GDP, the second-biggest defense spender among the 27 NATO countries after the United States, according to NATO statistics.

I'm not absolutely sure but I think a lot of that military spending was directed at defense against the fellow NATO member Turkey. :bang:

[Altherion]

This is not directly related to Greece, but it looks like Syriza's victory is already having an impact elsewhere:

Hundreds of thousands of people marched through Madrid on Saturday in a show of strength by a fledgling radical leftist party, which hopes to emulate the success of Greece’s Syriza party in the Spanish general election later this year.

...

Podemos (“We Can”) aims to shatter the country’s predominantly two-party system and the “March for Change” gathered crowds in the same place where sit-in protests against political and financial corruption laid the party’s foundations in 2011.

Spain and Greece are very different, but their economies share a few key features. For example, their unemployment rates are over 20% (Greece, Spain) and the youth unemployment rates are over 50% (Greece, Spain). Incidentally, this does explain how any political party can afford to have people escorting old ladies to ATMs and throwing squatters out of homes: there is a nearly limitless reserve of young people with nothing to do.

Also, Greece by itself is not large enough to have much of an effect on Europe: whether some of their debts are written off or they leave the Euro, the system is easily robust enough to absorb the shock. However, what they can do (and to some extent have already done) is demonstrate that there is an alternative to the political parties allied with (or perhaps owned by) big business. If this idea can catch on in at least one other place (Spain is a likely candidate), there may be a significant realignment in Europe.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What did they spend it on?

One of them who comes to my mind is Akis Tsochatzopoulos. He and his wife bought useful things for the country like; two sofas (34860.38 euros), input table (21.480 euro), input furniture (4.990 euros), fabric for curtains in the nursery (2760.48 euros) fabric for curtains in master bedroom (6,740 euros), fabric living room curtains (8986.82 euros), fringes for sofas (2.626 , 57 euro), String for two sofas (552 euros). http://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/199740/otan-h-viky-stamath-psonizei/

[Zoë Sumra]

JQC,

What is rational about a vote for a Neo-Nazi party?

Having been trying to get my head round this lately for writing purposes: voting for fascists is attractive to people with a certain mindset. Political fascism trades on an appeal to civic pride, law and order, national reclamation etc., involving demonisation of out-groups as a "necessary" outgrowth. Any country with elements of failure in its social contract can be at risk.

[Alarich]

You mean the goverment spending money they didn't had right?

Spendig it on tanks to defend the Greek people, spending it on government jobs for the Greek people, spending it in pensions for the Greek people etc. etc.

So basically the borrowed money was spent by many Greeks. Now their government doesn't want to pay back their debts, like a bunch of fraudsters. Thats the main difference to Italy, Spain et al

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Elosia,

Having been trying to get my head round this lately for writing purposes: voting for fascists is attractive to people with a certain mindset. Political fascism trades on an appeal to civic pride, law and order, national reclamation etc., involving demonisation of out-groups as a "necessary" outgrowth. Any country with elements of failure in its social contract can be at risk.

Interesting. I'm not sure that makes it "rational" but it may make it explainable.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Spendig it on tanks to defend the Greek people, spending it on government jobs for the Greek people, spending it in pensions for the Greek people etc. etc.

So basically the borrowed money was spent by many Greeks. Now their government doesn't want to pay back their debts, like a bunch of fraudsters. Thats the main difference to Italy, Spain et al

For example Greece never received some submarines which they supposed to buy, the pensions are always reducing some people who supposedly should take 1000 euros they take 600-700 euros and do I have to say more about our government so far? The point is that the majority of the money went to other things (politicians and their rich friends) almost nothing went to Greek people. Now why the greek people should pay for what the politicians and the rich people had defalcated?

Also I don't know what is the point of being a member of Europe and not been protected by Europe? Why Greece should spend so much money for their weapons? Maybe because big European companies are those which benefits from that? As Daniel Cohn-Bendit said:

“What really bothers me is the conclusion that Greece is a corrupted country. But who else is corrupted? Which were the French and German companies that did business in Greece? To whom did we sell weapon systems? Even now, when Greece is one step away from default, we are still selling guns to the government. So we are all part of this” http://eu.greekreporter.com/2012/01/04/eurodeputy-cohn-bendit-holds-german-and-french-companies-equally-responsible-for-greek-corruption/

[Free Northman Reborn]

I have of course not followed this very closely, but at a fundamental level there is just something wrong with being able to default on a loan without getting your ass kicked.

Personally, I reckon if a country defaults on a loan of tens of billions, that should be grounds for the holder of that debt to declare war and go and take pieces of land or assets of equivalent value by force of arms if necessary.

How can you eagerly accept billions when your country is up shit creek, and then just break the terms of the contract when it no longer suits you? That should cue the tanks to start rolling over your borders, in a just world.

Because that is nothing less than theft.

[Recovering forum addict]

Privately owned banks can't declare war against anyone. Neither can the IMF.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Privately owned banks can't declare war against anyone. Neither can the IMF.

Ah. Ok. I was under the (apparently incorrect) impression that it was Germany that bailed out much of the Eurozone during the crisis. As in the German taxpayers themselves.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ah. Ok. I was under the (apparently incorrect) impression that it was Germany that bailed out much of the Eurozone during the crisis. As in the German taxpayers themselves.

Actually, we did. Sort of. Through various tricks, most of the rotten debts formerly owned by private banks are now in the possession of the EZB, the ESM and various other state-operated banks and bank-lookalikes, funded by taxes.

It's not just German taxmoney though, it's most of the EU or the Eurozone. Germany just carries 27% of it with the remaining 73% distributed among the other payers.

A really rotten affair of the private banks getting the interests and the taxpayers carrying the risks, and in many cases already paying.

[Lykos]

Haha? (I hope)

Vee ssought Vee hat taken zem wissout tanks into our German Reich zee Euro-Zone, but zey behafe like zee Berliners, who elect decadent governments and take all zee money earned in Bavaria. Saupreissen, Griechische!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm not absolutely sure but I think a lot of that military spending was directed at defense against the fellow NATO member Turkey. :bang:

I wouldn't say that is quite unessessary if someone see the *movements* over and at Aegean sea.

[Altherion]

I have of course not followed this very closely, but at a fundamental level there is just something wrong with being able to default on a loan without getting your ass kicked.

Why? This happens all the time in most Western systems -- we call it bankruptcy. Also, keep in mind that the interest rate for every loan has the possibility of default priced in -- this is the reason people with better credit scores get lower rates.

Personally, I reckon if a country defaults on a loan of tens of billions, that should be grounds for the holder of that debt to declare war and go and take pieces of land or assets of equivalent value by force of arms if necessary.

How can you eagerly accept billions when your country is up shit creek, and then just break the terms of the contract when it no longer suits you? That should cue the tanks to start rolling over your borders, in a just world.

Because that is nothing less than theft.

I... cannot even tell whether you are being serious or not. This would be a bad, bad idea for so many reasons. Here are a few:

• The moral dubiousness of killing people over money.
• Greece is a member of NATO. Article 5 does not contain anything which would render an attack based on non-repayment of loans differ from any others. Thus, this kind of attack (which would necessarily be by other NATO members) is a good way to wreck that alliance.
• Even supposing NATO does nothing and Germany et al manage to conquer part of Greece... now what? They still don't have their money, they've wasted even more on war and, worst of all, they now have to govern a restive Greek population.

[Lykos]

Jon's Queen Consort, I understand why the Greek people was wary of Attatürk's Turkey and also that they didn't want to rely on the Allied Forces, who stood by as they were driven from their homes, but I think there were several opportunities to come to friendlier terms. Of course the Turkish government is as much at fault as the Greek. I see so much potential for Greece as they could profit by the transit of Turkish produce into the Euro-Zone. The Tourism would pick up as well.

[kuenjato]

I have of course not followed this very closely, but at a fundamental level there is just something wrong with being able to default on a loan without getting your ass kicked.

Personally, I reckon if a country defaults on a loan of tens of billions, that should be grounds for the holder of that debt to declare war and go and take pieces of land or assets of equivalent value by force of arms if necessary.

How can you eagerly accept billions when your country is up shit creek, and then just break the terms of the contract when it no longer suits you? That should cue the tanks to start rolling over your borders, in a just world.

Because that is nothing less than theft.

There are always risks associated with lending money, and frankly the investors of Greece assumed a huge risk, given its past history--yet they were certain that returns would continually emerge, by hook or by crook, so they kept pouring money in. But, as we've seen over and over, the attitude that irresponsible lenders are far more important than irresponsible borrowers results in widespread misery for the many to ensure the few continue to receive their investment revenues.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kuenjato,

So, the borrowers derived no benefit from having funds loaned and bear no moral and legal responsiblity to repay particularly in light of the Greek Government fudging the nublmbers to get into the EU in the first place?