Is Jaime a good battle commander?

[Euron's Black Eye]

I've been rereading A Dance With Dragons and found some indications of Jaime being a really good battle commander.

Tyrion about his worth to Daenarys.

“With my tongue.” He licked his fingers, one by one. “I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime, in battle."

Harry Strickland about GC invading Westeros under Aegon.

“A Lannister woman,” insisted the captain-general. “The bitch will have the Kingslayer at her side, count on that."

There is also a theory that Tom-o-Sevens identified Jaime as the real threat - a very capable battle commander - and removed him from the game via Brienne calling him to Brotherhood trap.

He did manage himself really well after leaving Kings Landing for Riverrun, dealt with situation there and managed Blackwood-Braken hostility.

However, the image I had in my mind about Jaime's battle commander skills go to getting his ass whooped by one Robb Stark in Whispering Woods.

He was a supreme swordsman with his good hand and the son of the mightiest lord in the land.

Being the youngest in Kingsguard did not teach him how to lead armies, nor did Lannister-Stark war (mah boi got captured). And never since then did he have a control of a large force, let alone an army.

My question is, considering all this, how good battle commander Jaime really is or can be? On the level with whom - Tywin, Stannis, Robb Stark - I can't imagine that.

And if he had to lead an army to decend upon Aegon or even Stannis, how would he fare?

[Bryanfury]

We know of three battles and two sieges that he has actually commanded. The first two battles he outnumbered the enemy greatly, and defeated people who as far as we know have not commanded before. The third battle he lost, losing the siege subsequently. He wins the second siege. He is a better commander for his better diplomacy when the second siege comes around. He is a decent commander, but not great or amazing. He is just decent.

[markg171]

We have this:

“How could this happen?” Ser Harys Swyft moaned. “How? Even after the Whispering Wood, you had Riverrun ringed in iron, surrounded by a great host... what madness made Ser Jaime decide to split his men into three separate camps? Surely he knew how vulnerable that would leave them?”

Better than you, you chinless craven, Tyrion thought. Jaime might have lost Riverrun, but it angered him to hear his brother slandered by the likes of Swyft, a shameless lickspittle whose greatest accomplishment was marrying his equally chinless daughter to Ser Kevan, and thereby attaching himself to the Lannisters.

“I would have done the same,” his uncle responded, a good deal more calmly than Tyrion might have. “You have never seen Riverrun, Ser Harys, or you would know that Jaime had little choice in the matter. The castle is situated at the end of the point of land where the Tumblestone flows into the Red Fork of the Trident. The rivers form two sides of a triangle, and when danger threatens, the Tullys open their sluice gates upstream to create a wide moat on the third side, turning Riverrun into an island. The walls rise sheer from the water, and from their towers the defenders have a commanding view of the opposite shores for many leagues around. To cut off all the approaches, a besieger must needs place one camp north of the Tumblestone, one south of the Red Fork, and a third between the rivers, west of the moat. There is no other way, none.”

Jaime knew that he had to split his army into 3 to attack Riverrun while Ser Harys Swift didn't understand that having never seen Riverrun. Kevan Lannister confirms that that's the only way to attack that castle.

We later see that that's exactly how Riverrun is later sieged by the Freys and Lannisters

“We have the castle well encircled. Ser Ryman and the Freys are north of the Tumblestone. South of Red Fork sits Lord Emmon, with Ser Forley Prester and with what remains of your old host, plus the river lords who came over to us after the Red Wedding. A sullen lot, I don’t mind saying. Good for sulking in their tents, but not much more. Mine own camp is between the rivers, facing the moat and Riverrun’s main gates. We’ve thrown a boom across the Red Fork, downstream of the castle. Manfryd Yew and Raynard Ruttiger have charge of its defense, so no one can escape by boat. I gave them nets as well, to fish. It helps keep us fed.”

So Jaime at least understands how to properly attack a castle given that his strategy concerning taking Riverrun is confirmed as the sound choice by two different sources

[Lord Lyman]

Riverrun and the Bracken-Blackwood hostility are signs of a good negotiator. In both cases he is coming in as a essentially a third party mediator and ends up resolving them.

[Bryanfury]

We have this:

Jaime knew that he had to split his army into 3 to attack Riverrun while Ser Harys Swift didn't understand that. Kevan Lannister confirms that that's the only way to attack that castle. So Jaime at least understands how to properly attack a castle that others couldn't figure out.

Actually, that's stated in such a way as to presume that had the other person actually seen Riverrun, he'd agree with everyone else. So, in other words, it's exceedingly obvious that a castle that bisects a river in such a way needs three separate camps to prevent people sneaking in and out across the river.

[markg171]

We also see that he knows whether he can defend a castle or not

“It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. ‘Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor.’ Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

Which is contrasted by this

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Ser Gerold believes that he could have held the Red Keep against Tywin's army, but Jaime understands that that was an impossible task. Now whether or not Gerold knew the details that made Jaime think defending the Red Keep was an impossible task we don't know, but we do see Jaime understanding when he's faced with an impossible task when he's in command.

[markg171]

Actually, that's stated in such a way as to presume that had the other person actually seen Riverrun, he'd agree with everyone else. So, in other words, it's exceedingly obvious that a castle that bisects a river in such a way needs three separate camps to prevent people sneaking in and out across the river.

True enough. It shows though that he understands how to siege a castle.

[TheNinjaDC]

Pre-GoT: 2/5 stars. He's a good fighter, and can inspire soldiers because of that, but he is way too cocky, emotional, and willingly shuts off his brain.

As of Dance: 4/5. With his strength of sword gone he has to use his head, which to everyone's surprise is actually a rather good one.

Though, the 4/5 is earned more as a mediator/non-field commander, rather than as a tactician/on field one. There he would be a 3/5.

[Alex Storm]

Pre-GoT: 2/5 stars. He's a good fighter, and can inspire soldiers because of that, but he is way too cocky, emotional, and willingly shuts off his brain.

As of Dance: 4/5. With his strength of sword gone he has to use his head, which to everyone's surprise is actually a rather good one.

Though, the 4/5 is earned more as a mediator/non-field commander, rather than as a tactician/on field one. There he would be a 3/5.

Agree with his analysis. After his hand got chopped off he ironically became more suited for war

[Euron's Black Eye]

Riverrun is actually a no-brainer, even Freys know how to position themselves.

Jaime managed most of the situations lately with diplomacy.

However, Aegon is coming, Euron is on the rise and who know when Stannis will cross the Neck and Dany the sea.

Do you guys think Jaime will lead royal army on the battlefield though? If he comes back from the Brienne 'I have to show you Stark girl' thing.

However, if not Jaime, who then? Mace Tyrell would get decimated. Maybe Tarly? Kevan points out Tarly is the real danger at last Small(est) Council meeting.

BTW, given Aegon is really eager and bold youth, I would like to see Jaime going against him. Because Jaime was eager and bold at Whispering Woods and was taught a lesson. Time for Jaime to give that lesson and shows what he has learned.

[Leonardo]

Jaime is fairly competent, more so than anyone but the top tier, especially with the round of deaths.

However a lot of that is education and his ability to intimidate. Tarly is the best left in the wings, and in sure there are good tactical minds surpassing his, but intimidation is huuuuuge in warfare; in the eyes of the smallfolk, Jaime got away with murder, literally, and a murder of a king at that. He is essentially untouchable in their eyes, invulnerable. Ironically I think losing his hand has made him even more fearsome

Jaime is 3/5 as was said, but there are so few people even registering on that scale that he is probably second in service of the Tyrells and Lannisters

[Dofs]

There is nothing that tells that he is terrible. He lost the Whispering Wood because of his rashness and not because of poor commander abilities. He got himself into a trap where it was impossible to win, it's not like he lost in a proper battle.

[Nihlus]

Correction, he lost Whispering Woods because he was working for Tywin. His dad told him that he would intercept Robb, and that there was no way Robb could possibly ally with Frey and attack Jaime's force. Considering that, the fact that he was still running around with two thousand heavy cavalry as an honor guard while just dispatching raiders makes him pretty dang cautious.

Anyway, I think he's competent enough. Not Stannis or Ned tier or anything, but a solid commander.

-Golden Tooth: Easily slaughtered a Tully force he outnumbered four to one. Not much to say here.

-Riverrun: Destroyed a Tully host 50% smaller than his. Winning this battle alone isn't a great feat, but it's notable that he apparently took very few casualties in the process (a couple thousand maybe, probably less), since Robb says Jaime's overall army after this battle is three times bigger than his when he brings five thousand cavalry. It should also be noted that Edmure himself is a good tactician, and unlike Tywin, Jaime didn't have a super high ratio of cavalry to infantry, which is a rather big advantage. His second best moment as a general.

-Whispering Woods: As I said, this was more Tywin's fault than Jaime's. Tywin was handling the overall strategy, and told Jaime to lay siege to Riverrun and not worry about Robb. Jaime handled himself as well as he could with the information he was given. He swept out raiders while his men laid siege to Riverrun, keeping a couple thousand of his best soldiers with him just in case, and even when Robb sprung his ambush, Jaime tried to go for a decapitation victory by going for Robb himself, which almost worked.

-Riverrun (the sequel): By the time Jaime arrived, the siege was a complete mess. The army was running out of food, the Rivermen and Westermen were refusing to cooperate (damn Freys), a complete idiot was in charge, and the enemy garrison was well supplied and showed zero desire to surrender. It seemed that the only option was to storm the castle, which would result in hundreds of deaths- mostly Jaime's own men.

Jaime quickly took control of this situation and improved it. He dismissed Ryman Frey for incompetence (firing incompetent subordinates is harder than you might think). He acted as a mediator between the various factions in his army. He used psychological warfare tactics and his reputation to intimidate Edmure. Then he sent Edmure back into the castle. Doing all of the above, he was able to successfully force Riverrun's surrender. In the end, he captured the castle and its 200-strong garrison without losing a man. This was his best moment as a general, IMO.

-Raventree: A similar case to the siege of Riverrun, though less severe. The besieges and the sieges were both breaking down, with neither side budging due to pride. Jaime simply came in and resolved the dispute under the authority of the Iron Throne, taking the castle (and a hostage) without a fight.

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

Surely part of the Kingsguards duty is to be fit to command men into battle, discussions about warfare tactics, sieges, combat, should be a common thing at the Kingsguards quarters.

[The Holy Goat]

Jaime seem to be a good commander. Perhaps not the best in Westeros, but definitly among the more competent ones.

[LionOfCasterlyRock]

Not as good as Tarley or Stannis yet, but getting there. Plenty of experience in warfare, very smart guy, and now more willing to learn and think than before.

[Frey Pie]

Jaime is one of the better commanders we've seen.

As said he won at the golden tooth, and at riverrun. It's unknown how many Riverlords were at riverrun but it's fair to say that he should have outnumbered them, but not by a huge margin. It's Jaime's speed and brilliance in attacks that wins the day.

His loss to robb doesn't dent his credibility at all, it only reinforces the idea that Robb was a military great in the making.

Later we see how he handles both riverrun and raventree ie he's head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of command prowess.

So overall I wouldnt say he's in the top tier but he's the best of the rest, possibly above Randyll Tarly imho and just under Tywin

[David Selig]

Given that he is an idiot in general, I highly doubt it.

[Mal Malenkirk]

As far as we can tell, he got defeated once by a surprise attack that most would agree was expertly executed by some of the better commanders in the serie (Robb/Brynden depending how much credit you think should go to whom). He was also shown to be reckless at the time.

He's been cured of his recklessness while not having become timid and we've seen in his latest command he's become very methodical about scouting, he wouldn't be caught the same way twice. He's clever, a good judge of character and learns from his mistakes. I say he's currently one of the best commander on the field in the serie. Expect him to win soundly his next major engagement if it comes to that.

[The Santa of House Claus]

He got whooped by Robb in large part because of his arrogance. That ass kicking and subsequent imprisonment (along with losing his hand) humbled him greatly. I would consider him good, yes. He had all the tools before but his arrogance habit of looking down at others is what stopped him from being great before, that is gone, but he has yet to really be tested. His last 2 encounters were more diplomacy then command. His name and reputation give him a boost as well.

I'd still favor Robb, Ned, Tywin, and Stannis, but he is climbing the list.